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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by desertrat218 View Post
    Blackmail? lol I thought blackmail involved cash payments to hide some sort of embarrassing secret.
    Is it not also a constitutional right to burn a bunch of Qurans? Or bibles?
    No thats extortion?

    Blackmail=exert pressure on someone through threats

    (Thats when its used as a verb I believe. As a noun your correct but either way the point is obvious)


    And to your second question. Not really. The one I was referring to is freedom of religion burning Bibles or Qurans wouldnt classify under that but would under personal property. Even so, its a horrible thing to do and all its accomplishing is making Muslim-Christian relationships worse

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink
    How is burning anything a constitutional right? Is destroying things enshrined in the Constitution? I highly doubt it.
    It's not just "destroying things". It's symbolic. Burning a flag isn't just burning a flag. It's done to make a statement. Same with burning a Qur'an, or a Bible, or Dixie Chicks CDs.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    It's not just "destroying things". It's symbolic. Burning a flag isn't just burning a flag. It's done to make a statement. Same with burning a Qur'an, or a Bible, or Dixie Chicks CDs.
    Making statements with words is "expression". I don't see anything profound about destroying Dixie Chicks CDs or even disco record burnings in baseball stadiums. And, as we've often disagreed, this would constitute hate, just as burning a flag or bible would.

    Anyway, from what I gather the pastor has met with another Imam and plans to meet in NYC with Iman Rauf (sorry can't remember the whole name), so hopefully the whole furor will die down.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Making statements with words is "expression". I don't see anything profound about destroying Dixie Chicks CDs or even disco record burnings in baseball stadiums. And, as we've often disagreed, this would constitute hate, just as burning a flag or bible would.

    Anyway, from what I gather the pastor has met with another Imam and plans to meet in NYC with Iman Rauf (sorry can't remember the whole name), so hopefully the whole furor will die down.
    Making statements with words is the only thing that constitutes expression? So dancing can be banned? Have we learned nothing from Footloose?

    But really. A lot of forms of art are non verbal. Are you suggesting that art isn't expression?

    eta: And the level of profoundness has no bearing on this conversation. Neither does hate. A guy burning a flag is probably doing so to express his hatred of US policy. So what? You're allowed to hate stuff.
    Last edited by gcoll; 09-09-2010 at 11:28 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Making statements with words is the only thing that constitutes expression? So dancing can be banned? Have we learned nothing from Footloose?

    But really. A lot of forms of art are non verbal. Are you suggesting that art isn't expression?
    I was basically saying to the pastor "use your words". That is, if his words aren't hateful. I thought the concept was "freedom of speech".

    Totally right about art. But I'd like to know how someone burning a Bible, Torah, Quran, or any other religious text couldn't be construed as hate. Is that really a legal form of expression in the US? Burning things you hate?

    If that is the standard, why are people offended when other countries burn their flags? I mean, if that's just freedom of expression, how can it be held against them?

    To be clear, I'm not saying burning American (or Cuban or Nigerian or Chinese or Mongolian) flags is acceptable. I'm just trying to understand what seems like a double standard. How can it be a "right" and yet offensive. I thought rights were enshrined.
    Last edited by ink; 09-09-2010 at 11:43 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I was basically saying to the pastor "use your words". That is, if his words aren't hateful.

    Totally right about art. But we were talking about destruction. I'd like to know how someone burning a Bible, Torah, Quran, or any other religious text couldn't be construed as hate.
    If it is "hate", so what?

    "Hate Speech" is a completely bull **** concept.

    But, earlier I described a scenario where I would support the burning of the Qur'an. If it was done to make an anti political correctness, pro free speech statement.

    eta:....and expression is inferred from the concept of "freedom of speech".

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    If it is "hate", so what?

    "Hate Speech" is a completely bull **** concept.

    But, earlier I described a scenario where I would support the burning of the Qur'an. If it was done to make an anti political correctness, pro free speech statement.
    Would you support the burning of the US flag? Or the Torah or Bible?

    And hate speech may be BS to you but it's law in countries around the world. I can see that it goes against your belief system but not everything that goes against your belief system is ********.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink
    Would you support the burning of the US flag? Or the Torah or Bible?
    Well. My support would depend on what message they were trying to get across. Usually I find myself on the opposite end of the spectrum of flag burners.

    But do I support their right to express themselves in that way? Absolutely.
    Last edited by gcoll; 09-10-2010 at 12:14 AM.

  9. #24
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    They will probably use the fire to burn crosses instead

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptimisticNot View Post
    They will probably use the fire to burn crosses instead
    If I were a betting man, I'd bet on some Qur'ans being lit up in the coming weeks.

    The guy at the center of this is an attention whore. Now, with this proposed meeting, he's getting even more attention. If the Imam agrees to meet with him, he is agreeing to being used as a prop by this pastor.

    If the Imam does agree to meet with him, he will be making a huge mistake.

  11. #26
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink
    And hate speech may be BS to you but it's law in countries around the world. I can see that it goes against your belief system but not everything that goes against your belief system is ********.
    Other countries around the world don't have a Bill of Rights. Flag burning is protected freedom of speech. You may not like it, but in the USA, we have freedom of speech, and that applies to more than simple spoken words, and you know that ink. It's amazing to me that I have to clarify that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink
    I'm just trying to understand what seems like a double standard. How can it be a "right" and yet offensive. I thought rights were enshrined.
    Ask Imam Rauf because the Ground Zero Mosque/Cultural Center/YMCA with a Crescent Moon is exactly that. There is a right to build it, and it's offensive to many at the same time because of its location. Stand up comics say offensive s**t all the time, and it's free speech.

    But thanks for clarifying to me what could happen in this country if we didn't have free speech, or a Bill of Rights. Yikes.
    "If [Republicans] were around when Columbus set sail, they must have been founding members of the Flat Earth Society." -- Pres. Barack Obama

  13. #28
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    People have to start to realize just because you have a legal constitutional right to do something (burn a flag, burn a bible, burn a Koran, tell somebody their baby is ugly) doesnt mean it is the right thing to do. We all have the legal right to do some nasty things. That doesnt mean we should do them. Do the right thing.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite no matter what their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful or dishonest poster please do not expect a reply.

  14. #29
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    after this is all said and done, I doubt a racist nut from florida is going to have any bearing on plans to build a worship center in new york.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    Other countries around the world don't have a Bill of Rights.
    That's not actually true. England has had their Bill of Rights since 1689. Called "An Act Declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject and Settling the Succession of the Crown", among the provisions of the Act is the guaranteed right to freedom of speech. Most democracies have a Bill of Rights. Ours is called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Europe also has a Bill of Rights, the United Nations has one, and all members of the Commonwealth (once colonies of England) continue to use the British Bill of Rights as their legal guide if they have not created a Bill of Rights of their own. I'm not sure why this kind of thing isn't taught in the USA but there does seem to be a hole in the education system around this knowledge.

    Thumbs down to book burnings of any kind, and in any period of history, regardless of the "reasons". That would include if someone were to take the American Bill of Rights or the Constitution and burn them publicly. I'd be appalled to see either of those documents burned, wouldn't you? And they're not even religious texts. Seems to me there are historic lessons that tell us why we need to respect books, but especially those that are sacred to others. I can't actually think of a single time when a book burning ended well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    But thanks for clarifying to me what could happen in this country if we didn't have free speech, or a Bill of Rights. Yikes.
    Not really sure what you're getting at since most if not all democracies have the guaranteed right to free speech.
    Last edited by ink; 09-10-2010 at 11:58 AM.

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