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  1. #16
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    Why did my earlier response get deleted, BMD? There was no flaming, baiting, or name-calling, so ... ? I only characterized DF's argument as this and that. And yet the banana moon comment here remains. Ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    Trump does see the location as a valuable piece of property. Who wouldn't? But Trump is also cognitive and sensitive to the real issue at hand which has nothing to do with Islamophobia or hatred of all Muslims at all, but the wisdom of the location of this Mosque/Comm. Center/YMCA with a crescent moon.

    Isn't it funny how it was wrong for a nutball to exercise his Constitutional right to burn a bunch of Korans, but it's totally ok for a group of Muslims to build a Mosque/Cultural Center/YMCA with banana moon 200ft. away from the WTC Ground Zero site?
    Anyway, I got a two second look at your response before it was deleted.

    You stated that the banana moon comment was a bit of satire. First, you and I both know it was an attempt to trivialize Islam. Wouldn't a similar comment about Christianity have you crying foul? But the real issue: Why does Islam need to be satirized? See, that's my point. It's one thing to be against this community center because you think the Imam and whoever are being insensitive. At least you'd have a gripe (still no legal objection though) if it wasn't all speculation and we actually knew the Imam's motives.

    No, instead you've characterized this as an Islam vs. Christianity thing. I don't see why. There's nothing about Islam that warrants satire here. I missed the last part of your earlier, deleted post, so I'll restate my questions: Is the WTC a Christian site? Why are Muslims excluded?
    Last edited by behindmydesk; 09-14-2010 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #17
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    Stop with the personal insults, and attacking the poster instead of the message, and I won't have to delete anything. That goes for alot of things that are deleted lately.

    If you guys want to redo your argumetns without name calling, and the likes, feel free.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindmydesk View Post
    Stop with the personal insults, and attacking the poster instead of the message, and I won't have to delete anything. That goes for alot of things that are deleted lately.

    If you guys want to redo your argumetns without name calling, and the likes, feel free.
    And I'd still like to know where a personal insult was used ...

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    You stated that the banana moon comment was a bit of satire. First, you and I both know it was an attempt to trivialize Islam.
    If all pieces of satire are attempts to trivialize in disguise, then I'll have to remember to be much more offended by satire in the future. Mine was not. If I trivialized anything, it was the ridiculous notion of calling what Imam Rauf plans to head up a "Mosque" is spouting a bunch of lies. I've heard it be called that, and I think it's ridiculous. Insane watchdogs lying in wait ready to scream "LIES!!1!111!!" at anyone who calls that a Mosque are just that. Let's be less concerned about that, and more concerned with the actual issue, ok? Anyone with me on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    It's one thing to be against this community center because you think the Imam and whoever are being insensitive. At least you'd have a gripe (still no legal objection though)
    No one making a sane argument against the Mosque/community center/whatever is making a legal objection. There are no valid legal objections to it. There are only appeals at sensitivity, understanding, and tolerance of the ones who don't want a $100 Million huge Islamic center (see I didn't say Mosque!!! ) 200ft away from the graves of their loved ones. I think the best solution is an interfaith community center that would denounce violent extremism regardless of what particular faith it's coming from, but the Imam is firmly rejecting ANYTHING but exactly what he wants. How tolerant of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    Is the WTC a Christian site? Why are Muslims excluded?
    The WTC is hallowed ground to thousands and thousands of people who lost friends, family, and loved ones in the 9/11 attacks. Attacks done by Islamic extremists. Now the Imam says we better let the cultural center be built, or VIOLENCE!!1!11!!!11!!1! Excuse me? We're going to ignore everything because of they'll get violent, and they unfortunately have, killing 18 people in Kashmir over the proposed Koran burning.

    Why is it that the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 don't matter, but we must bow to Imam Rauf and the nutballs who'd get violent just because a) they're Muslim, and b) they'll get violent? You do that, and suddenly the world is their's because they'll just get violent every time they don't get something Islamic that they wanted. It's insane! How about having REAL tolerance that's a 2-way street, and denouncing violent extremists for the violent actions & killings that they engage in?
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    If all pieces of satire are attempts to trivialize in disguise, then I'll have to remember to be much more offended by satire in the future. Mine was not. If I trivialized anything, it was the ridiculous notion of calling what Imam Rauf plans to head up a "Mosque" is spouting a bunch of lies. I've heard it be called that, and I think it's ridiculous. Insane watchdogs lying in wait ready to scream "LIES!!1!111!!" at anyone who calls that a Mosque are just that. Let's be less concerned about that, and more concerned with the actual issue, ok? Anyone with me on that?
    Uh, but it wasn't satire. It was an attempt to trivialize Islam. What other purpose did that statement have?

    And why did Islam need to be satirized? You avoided that question.

    And please do not pretend that I have trivialized or satirized Christianity. I have not, not in any thread.

    No one making a sane argument against the Mosque/community center/whatever is making a legal objection. There are no valid legal objections to it. There are only appeals at sensitivity, understanding, and tolerance of the ones who don't want a $100 Million huge Islamic center (see I didn't say Mosque!!! ) 200ft away from the graves of their loved ones. I think the best solution is an interfaith community center that would denounce violent extremism regardless of what particular faith it's coming from, but the Imam is firmly rejecting ANYTHING but exactly what he wants. How tolerant of him.
    It's not a mosque, although I don't understand why that matters. Is a mosque more offensive or something?

    And what about Muslim Americans who died in the attacks? What if their loved ones do want a Muslim community center 200 ft. from the graves of their loved ones?

    How tolerant of him? It's his land. Since when does anybody have to run a sensitivity check before using their land? People are trying to run him off the land that he legally purchased. Why would he tolerate that?

    The WTC is hallowed ground to thousands and thousands of people who lost friends, family, and loved ones in the 9/11 attacks. Attacks done by Islamic extremists. Now the Imam says we better let the cultural center be built, or VIOLENCE!!1!11!!!11!!1! Excuse me? We're going to ignore everything because of they'll get violent, and they unfortunately have, killing 18 people in Kashmir over the proposed Koran burning.
    Where did the Imam threaten violence?

    And that still has nothing to do with this cultural center. That would be grounds for arresting the Imam, not prohibiting a Muslim cultural center in downtown Manhattan.

    And that Kashmir violence, sad and horrifying as it is, is an illogical response to an illogical response to a noncontroversy. Let's not pretend that Imam Rauf or this cultural center are culpable.

    Why is it that the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 don't matter, but we must bow to Imam Rauf and the nutballs who'd get violent just because a) they're Muslim, and b) they'll get violent? You do that, and suddenly the world is their's because they'll just get violent every time they don't get something Islamic that they wanted. It's insane! How about having REAL tolerance that's a 2-way street, and denouncing violent extremists for the violent actions & killings that they engage in?
    I see no reason to throw Imam Rauf in with the "nutballs" and see no indication that he'll get violent. Please support?

    And there are PLENTY of loved ones who are in support of this cultural center. What about their feelings? Suddenly their feelings do not matter because it doesn't align with your worldview?

    I think everyone involved here has denounced violent extremists. I know the Imam has, just six days ago:
    I condemn everyone and anyone who commits acts of terrorism.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...08/lkl.01.html
    Last edited by philab; 09-14-2010 at 09:56 AM.

  6. #21
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    To add some context to that sentence:

    O'BRIEN: Who would you not take money from? Who would you say no, take it back? Who would you turn it away from me?

    RAUF: We would turn away from anybody who is deemed to be a danger to this process.

    O'BRIEN: There have been a lot of questions, and I think a fair amount of controversy and criticism about questions that people have had about your take on Hamas. You were asked in an interview in the radio; the interviewer said, is the State Department correct in designating Hamas as a terror group? And you dodged the question. You went on a long time. But there was really sort of no answer to it.

    So -- and I guess people sense that whatever that answer is, if you -- if you don't condemn Hamas, then in a way maybe you're supporting Hamas as a terror organization. So I guess I'd ask that question again. Do you -- you know, is the State Department right in saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization?

    RAUF: I condemn everyone and anyone who commits acts of terrorism. And Hamas has committed acts of terrorism.
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  7. #22
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    RAUF: I am extremely concerned about sensitivity. But I also have a responsibility. If we move from that location, the story will be that the radicals have taken over the discourse. The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. And I'm less concerned about the radicals in America than I'm concerned about the radicals in the Muslim world.

    O'BRIEN: But isn't that also saying you're less concerned about the voices of opposition here?

    RAUF: And if we do -- no, no, no, no. I'm sorry, I don't mean it that way. I meant it, the danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops.

    I have a niece who works in the Army and served in Iraq. The concern for American citizens who live and work and travel overseas will increasingly be compromised if the radicals are strengthened. And if we do move, it will strengthen the argument of the radicals to recruit, their ability to recruit, and their increasing aggression and violence against our country.
    So we better do what he wants, or there'll be violence! Apparently sensitivity doesn't matter here because he's more concerned with the radicals in the Muslim world. But what is his answer to the threat they pose? Does he go over to the radicals and try to build bridges of peace with them? Well he did go on some taxpayer-funded trip over there, but I really don't have any idea what he said or did on the trip. All I can see here is that he's here telling us what we need to do in order to appease them.

    I reject that. Appeasement solves absolutely nothing, and it's a continuing insult to the families, Muslim and otherwise, who had friends & loved ones killed at the hands of Muslim extremists on 9/11.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    And that Kashmir violence, sad and horrifying as it is, is an illogical response to an illogical response to a noncontroversy. Let's not pretend that Imam Rauf or this cultural center are culpable.
    I never said he was. What I am saying is that nobody's denouncing the ones who'd get violent. We're all just worried about what we're doing here, and if it will encite their violence. That's a totally ridiculous way to live, and to evaluate the merits of our actions.

    He says he condemns anyone who engages in acts of terrorism, but also says it's important for the Cordoba House be built because if it's not, the extremists will get violent. That thinking doesn't condemn terrorism, it encourages it. It gives the terrorists what they want in terms of us making choices that appease them. Sounds to me like the Imam, if he's telling the truth about being a bridge builder, doesn't quite understand that appeasement doesn't create any sort of peace at all, and never has.
    Last edited by DodgersFan28; 09-14-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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  8. #23
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    DF, enough with trying to speak for the 9/11 families, b/c even they are split on the issue.

    Also, to your earlier point, if ALL Muslims hated us and were extremists, Hezbollah and A.Q. would consist of MILLIONS of people, instead of hundreds. Islamophobia absolutely exists, and it's a shame. Plenty of AMERICANS who are Muslim died on 9/11, and fight for us overseas everyday.

    This whole thing is media-manufactured, and now media-driven. People count on sensitive people like you(which, being sensitive isn't a bad thing) to be outraged when they talk about the 9/11 families...and lie about how it's 'violating hallowed ground'. Have you been to that area? It's a ****-hole, and 2 blocks in NYC might as well be 2 miles.

    Notice the timeline as the facts come out...
    First it's "Muslims want to build a mosque ON ground zero!!!!!!"
    Then it's: "Muslims want to build a mosque....2 blocks away from ground zero!!!!!"
    Now it's: "Muslims want to build a community center with a prayer room, 2 blocks from ground zero!"

    It's an obvious campaign to mislead and scare the public. Next people will realize that this "radical extremist" actually worked for both the Obama and Bush administrations...and wasn't a "terrorist" enough to lecture the FBI on Islam, and go over overseas goodwill trips for the USA.
    Last edited by The Schmooze; 09-14-2010 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    So we better do what he wants, or there'll be violence! Apparently sensitivity doesn't matter here because he's more concerned with the radicals in the Muslim world. But what is his answer to the threat they pose? Does he go over to the radicals and try to build bridges of peace with them? Well he did go on some taxpayer-funded trip over there, but I really don't have any idea what he said or did on the trip. All I can see here is that he's here telling us what we need to do in order to appease them.

    I reject that. Appeasement solves absolutely nothing, and it's a continuing insult to the families, Muslim and otherwise, who had friends & loved ones killed at the hands of Muslim extremists on 9/11.



    I never said he was. What I am saying is that nobody's denouncing the ones who'd get violent. We're all just worried about what we're doing here, and if it will encite their violence. That's a totally ridiculous way to live, and to evaluate the merits of our actions.

    He says he condemns anyone who engages in acts of terrorism, but also says it's important for the Cordoba House be built because if it's not, the extremists will get violent. That thinking doesn't condemn terrorism, it encourages it. It gives the terrorists what they want in terms of us making choices that appease them. Sounds to me like the Imam, if he's telling the truth about being a bridge builder, doesn't quite understand that appeasement doesn't create any sort of peace at all, and never has.
    Really? Is that how you would categorize allowing American citizens to have a place of worship on land that they own?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    DF, enough with trying to speak for the 9/11 families, b/c even they are split on the issue.

    Also, to your earlier point, if ALL Muslims hated us and were extremists, Hezbollah and A.Q. would consist of MILLIONS of people, instead of hundreds. Islamophobia absolutely exists, and it's a shame. Plenty of AMERICANS who are Muslim died on 9/11, and fight for us overseas everyday.

    This whole thing is media-manufactured, and now media-driven. People count on sensitive people like you(which, being sensitive isn't a bad thing) to be outraged when they talk about the 9/11 families...and lie about how it's 'violating hallowed ground'. Have you been to that area? It's a ****-hole, and 2 blocks in NYC might as well be 2 miles.

    Notice the timeline as the facts come out...
    First it's "Muslims want to build a mosque ON ground zero!!!!!!"
    Then it's: "Muslims want to build a mosque....2 blocks away from ground zero!!!!!"
    Now it's: "Muslims want to build a community center with a prayer room, 2 blocks from ground zero!"

    It's an obvious campaign to mislead and scare the public. Next people will realize that this "radical extremist" actually worked for both the Obama and Bush administrations...and wasn't a "terrorist" enough to lecture the FBI on Islam, and go over overseas goodwill trips for the USA.
    I think you'd find the media coverage of desegregation really interesting. It followed a very similar path.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    I think you'd find the media coverage of desegregation really interesting. It followed a very similar path.
    I absolutely would. Thanks for that! I'm gonna check it out very soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    I never said he was. What I am saying is that nobody's denouncing the ones who'd get violent. We're all just worried about what we're doing here, and if it will encite their violence. That's a totally ridiculous way to live, and to evaluate the merits of our actions.
    Is that a serious statement? I just quoted Imam Rauf condemning terrorism. Nearly everyone in this thread has denounced "the violent ones."

    And please quit speaking for me. I'm not worried about whether this will incite violence, cultural center or no cultural center. I'm worried about Islamophobia, about the marginalization of Islam be it intentional or not, about undermining constitutional principles, about the pervasion of irrational thinking into the mainstream, about this willingness to scream and scream until Americans' rights are effectively infringed ...

    He says he condemns anyone who engages in acts of terrorism, but also says it's important for the Cordoba House be built because if it's not, the extremists will get violent. That thinking doesn't condemn terrorism, it encourages it. It gives the terrorists what they want in terms of us making choices that appease them. Sounds to me like the Imam, if he's telling the truth about being a bridge builder, doesn't quite understand that appeasement doesn't create any sort of peace at all, and never has.
    That's not encouraging terrorism no matter how much you try to spin it. Even accepting your characterization of the matter (the bold), Imam Rauf would then be warning us of danger and steering us away from that danger. At the very worst, it's fear-mongering, to which I'll respond the same way I did to you: leave the fear-mongering out of this. Fear of terrorism is no reason to build the cultural center and no reason to stop it from being built.

    I am curious, though, why you are under the [apparent] impression that the Imam has a pipeline into Muslim culture writ-large and, even more perplexing, into terrorist organizations.

    And please, an Islamic cultural center in downtown Manhattan gives the terrorists what they want? That's an absurd statement.
    Last edited by philab; 09-14-2010 at 06:37 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    And please, an Islamic cultural center in downtown Manhattan gives the terrorists what they want? That's an absurd statement.
    Shame on you! We all know that Islamists get off on racquetball and finely cooked meals! We need to keep those racquetball courts closed and the cooking school closed to protect America!
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    DF, enough with trying to speak for the 9/11 families, b/c even they are split on the issue.


    Yeah ok, only 66% of NYC residents opposed the Ground Zero Mosque. It's not 100% to 0% so we'll just forever classify them as "split" on the issue. Whatever. Everyone knows the reality no matter what hilarious attempts at spin are made.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze
    Also, to your earlier point, if ALL Muslims hated us and were extremists, Hezbollah and A.Q. would consist of MILLIONS of people, instead of hundreds. Islamophobia absolutely exists, and it's a shame. Plenty of AMERICANS who are Muslim died on 9/11, and fight for us overseas everyday
    .

    They do consist of millions of people, not hundreds. I have no idea where you're getting your information from, but it's obviously not accurate.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate by the last statement, but it sounds like you're implying someone's trying to lump all Muslims in with the terrorists. NOBODY making any sort of sane argument against the Mosque/Cultural Center/whatever, or about anything else would ever do that. Of course there are peaceful Muslims, and Muslims fighting for our freedoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze
    ]This whole thing is media-manufactured, and now media-driven. People count on sensitive people like you(which, being sensitive isn't a bad thing) to be outraged when they talk about the 9/11 families...and lie about how it's 'violating hallowed ground'. Have you been to that area? It's a ****-hole, and 2 blocks in NYC might as well be 2 miles.
    Yep, I'm just a media-driven zombie. I'm hypnotized by Glenn Beck's wristwatch. In fact, Beck instructed me to write this very post. I'm just typing what Beck gave me word for word. It's just taking a while to write because I never really learned to read in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze
    Notice the timeline as the facts come out...
    First it's "Muslims want to build a mosque ON ground zero!!!!!!"
    Then it's: "Muslims want to build a mosque....2 blocks away from ground zero!!!!!"
    Now it's: "Muslims want to build a community center with a prayer room, 2 blocks from ground zero!"


    It's an obvious campaign to mislead and scare the public.
    Have you read any of my posts in this thread? I just talked about how frustrated I am with the stupidity that is angry watchdogs screaming "LIES!!1!!11!!!!1!" any time the word "Mosque" is used to describe the Cordoba House project. Noting the changes in how the project is classified only illustrates the effect the angry watchdogs have had. It has zero to do with some giant attempt to mislead anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28
    Appeasement solves absolutely nothing
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    Really? Is that how you would categorize allowing American citizens to have a place of worship on land that they own?
    No, it's how I would categorize dropping any argument against the Mosque's location because moving the Mosque might incite violence somewhere in the Muslim world. Rauf wants the resistance to his project dropped partly for that reason - it's one of the reasons he stated as to why he feels the project can not be moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    I think you'd find the media coverage of desegregation really interesting. It followed a very similar path.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    I absolutely would. Thanks for that! I'm gonna check it out very soon!
    Yeah, everything's the civil rights movement happening over & over again. First it was gays, now it's Muslims. What's next? Clippers fans?

    ESPN makes fun of the Clippers and Clippers fans anytime the Clippers are in the news. Fight the oppression!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Is that a serious statement? I just quoted Imam Rauf condemning terrorism. Nearly everyone in this thread has denounced "the violent ones."
    Please, I was obviously talking about the violent protestors in Kashmir that I linked to. Rauf did say he condemned people who engage in acts of terrorism, but what about angry mobs that also kill people? Rauf warned that our decisions could incite their violence, implying that that should have an affect on how our decisions are made. Why do that? Why isn't he talking to them about how stupid and unproductive a violent reaction is?

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    And please quit speaking for me. I'm not worried about whether this will incite violence, cultural center or no cultural center. I'm worried about Islamophobia, about the marginalization of Islam be it intentional or not, about undermining constitutional principles, about the pervasion of irrational thinking into the mainstream, about this willingness to scream and scream until Americans' rights are effectively infringed ...
    Yeah, ok. So I can't make a satirical remark without your insistence that I'm trivializing Islam. Yet, here you are trivializing the crap out of the people who are making a plea for the Mosque's location to be moved out of sensitivity & understanding for the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11. Suddenly they're just irrational-minded Islamophobes out to marginalize Islam, undermine the Constitution, and infringe the rights of every American. Mm-hmm.

    But it's good to know the feelings of the terrorists' direct victims are obviously a low priority next to the feelings of general Muslims who have suddenly become *victims* of "Islamophobia." Good to know who stands where on the totem pole of tolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    That's not encouraging terrorism no matter how much you try to spin it. Even accepting your characterization of the matter (the bold), Imam Rauf would then be warning us of danger and steering us away from that danger.
    How? By appeasement? That if we just don't piss them off, they'll suddenly like us? I've heard this over & over & over again in history and I've never understood this thinking. Nothing we ever do, or don't do, will change the terrorists' minds that we're the Great Satan and must be destroyed. That's what appeasers never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    At the very worst, it's fear-mongering, to which I'll respond the same way I did to you: leave the fear-mongering out of this. Fear of terrorism is no reason to build the cultural center and no reason to stop it from being built.
    Imam Rauf would seem to disagree you.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    I am curious, though, why you are under the [apparent] impression that the Imam has a pipeline into Muslim culture writ-large and, even more perplexing, into terrorist organizations.
    Really? Imam Rauf has no pipeline into Muslim culture, and terrorist organizations? Really?

    Just read his Wikipedia bio page.

    Quote Originally Posted by philab
    And please, an Islamic cultural center in downtown Manhattan gives the terrorists what they want? That's an absurd statement.
    No it isn't. People bowing to what they want under threat of their violent response is actually exactly what they want. They would most certainly want an Islamic cultural center in downtown Manhattan, and anywhere else in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Shame on you! We all know that Islamists get off on racquetball and finely cooked meals! We need to keep those racquetball courts closed and the cooking school closed to protect America!
    Yay condescension!!!
    Last edited by DodgersFan28; 09-15-2010 at 07:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215
    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28
    Appeasement solves absolutely nothing
    Really? Is that how you would categorize allowing American citizens to have a place of worship on land that they own?
    No, it's how I would categorize dropping any argument against the Mosque's location because moving the Mosque might incite violence somewhere in the Muslim world. Rauf wants the resistance to his project dropped partly for that reason - it's one of the reasons he stated as to why he feels the project can not be moved.
    Would you categorize it as appeasement if we dropped any argument for having the Mosque there because having it there would upset Americans?

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