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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Obviously you don't believe Muslim terrorists to be a threat, let me try to summarize my concern-

    a) self proclaimed muslims have committed acts of terrorism against the citizens of this country

    b)there seem to be two different interpretations of what the koran (spelling) mean to practicing Muslims

    c) since I myself am not a Muslim, who is properly practicing their religion? The radicals? The peaceful ones? Both?

    I believe these are all fair questions. Last time I checked, we haven't been recent victims of acts of terrorism by groups of any other religion. My questions on the matter centered around why there hadn't been more of an attempt by mainstream Muslims (proper terminology?) to distance them selves from radical Muslims. Arkanian provided me with numerous links of text of Muslims of varying involvement denouncing the acts of violence, they were very enlightening.

    Am I the only person to see things from this angle? I'm just looking for a little reassurance from those that practice that religion that there is a difference between the two factions. It appears from my observations that when ever the mics or cameras are on that Muslim spokespeople get very defensive and don't comment. Yes , some of the text links were from TV interviews so maybe it's just my bad for watching the wrong shows. It just seems to me that if I'm a spokesman for the Manhattan Center that a TV or radio interview would be a wonderful time to ackowledge the concerns of the protesters. Not very reassuring to people that know little of the Muslim faith.

    My questions and concerns have drawn comments of racism, bigotry and profiling. It's as if my inquiries signal that I'm some sort of bounty hunter of Muslims, I am not. In all fairness I will say that some of my comments have been blunt but that I meant no offense to any group.

    It seems that just as not knowing has caused fear among those that protest the Cultural center, I sense that same fear from those that support it when questions are raised. I am not advocating that every Muslim sign a promise or have a code with a secret ring. It would though go a long way to answer some simple questions through the mainstream media the next time opportunity presents itself.

    Before some of you get your panties in a bunch and ask me why the text answers are not enough, I do have a personal quirk about being able to hear and see a person say something that they expect me to believe. Sorry but I'm old school on some things, a look in the eye and a firm handshake go a long way with me....
    I think your concerns are valid. It kind of goes to what Imam Rauf said in the lecture/interview posted somewhere in this forum. When we experience pain so personal, our decisions are often led by emotion rather than logic. We will tend to turn a deaf ear or at least be more skeptical of voices that say something that contradicts what we experienced. We are more susceptible to persuasion that feeds off our emotions. When we see articles that say, "Imam Rauf says US has more blood on its hands than Muslim extremists" or "Imam Rauf says N***** and Whitey" or "the Quran preaches the killing of non-Muslims" some of us will be more willing to accept the message of those articles given our circumstances than others.

    So what can Muslims do to change how we perceive that message, one of blood lust and intolerance sent by a very vocal group? It's not as if 9-11 was the only confrontation between radical Islam and the West. We have seen plenty of embassy bombings, attacks in our own backyard (London, Madrid, among others) and we have even seen our own fellow Americans (even those with pale skin and blue eyes) converted to their cause. There is a sense that radical Islam is already inside America given the recent events so something such as a mosque planned to be built near Ground Zero or a mosque in one's local community can be seen as confrontational and another step in the confrontation. Any message sent by the Muslim community, both main stream and radical, to average American citizens will be clouded by the context of the world we live in and the experiences that we have gone through.

    How do you tell these people that Islam is a lot like the other Abrahamic faiths where violence is not condoned? How do you tell people that not all Muslims are bad when they see the destruction of terrorist attacks on those they love or on people that they can really empathize with? It is hard but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't try.

    I would ask Imam Rauf to look at his actions through the eyes of an American. How are your actions perceived by the public? If someone you knew or you yourself lost someone on that awful day, how would you feel about a place of worship being built near where so many people died? To complicate things, the place of worship is a Muslim prayer space. Now when you look at the surveys, 63% of Americans did not personally know a Muslim back in 2007. That percentage is now 58%. When a large percentage of Americans don't know any Muslims, what do they have to go by to judge the character of and to gauge the intent of a man like Imam Rauf? For many Americans, the face of Islam is not their local Imam's or any famous Muslim scholar. It is Osama bin Laden. It is the collage of the 19 hijacker's faces. It is the slide show of blown up embassies and mangled bodies, the masked faces of Hamas, the rifle wielding coffin carriers, Mahoud Ahmadinejad, and most importantly, it is the sight of two planes heading into the Twin Towers. To an average American, Imam Rauf's character and intent are based on what they associate with Islam.

    To his credit, he has done what he claims President Bush did not do. He has addressed Americans to some extent by saying what his intentions are with the community center. His wife has addressed Americans on the behalf of him and his foundation as well. Despite this interview being conducted prior to the uproar against the mosque, Daisy Khan addressed some of the issues that would come up such as why the proximity to Ground Zero, what are your intentions, what are the ideas that drive you, your husband and the organization that you represent, and most importantly, what kind of Muslim are you? He should engage the public more openly about some of the issues that are brought up. But again, are people willing to listen or will they let their emotions and fears drive their decisions?

    Are there radical Islamists in America already? Yes. Does al Qaeda continue to breed new recruits for their cause? Yes. Will there be terrorist attacks fueled by radical Islam? Yes. Is there a good percentage of Muslims who distrust and even hate America/Americans and the West/Westerners? Yes.

    Does Imam Rauf, Daisy Khan or their foundation represent the core beliefs of radical Islamists? In my opinion no, although agreeing that there should be places of worship for Christianity in predominantly Muslim states is pretty radical.
    Last edited by arkanian215; 09-07-2010 at 03:04 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Obviously you don't believe Muslim terrorists to be a threat, let me try to summarize my concern-

    a) self proclaimed muslims have committed acts of terrorism against the citizens of this country

    b)there seem to be two different interpretations of what the koran (spelling) mean to practicing Muslims

    c) since I myself am not a Muslim, who is properly practicing their religion? The radicals? The peaceful ones? Both?
    I know you did not aim this at me specifically, but I would like to reply.

    To your first sentance ]
    Obviously you don't believe Muslim terrorists to be a threat, let me try to summarize my concern
    I do believe that there are terrorists who are Muslim, but, I do not believe that Muslims as a group are terrorists. The very basis of this statement implies just the opposite. In fact, there are bad Muslims, and bad Christians, and bad Jews, and bad Hindus, and bad Sikhs, and..... well you get the picture. That said, most of these people are not bad. I am not saying most of them are saints, just that they are not bad.

    a) self proclaimed muslims have committed acts of terrorism against the citizens of this country
    Absolutely correct, as have self proclaimed members of other groups.
    source
    In the early '90s, when Floyd Cochran was a lay minister in the white supremacist, Christian Identity church, he noticed something: "If I walked into a community dressed as a Nazi, a wall would go up," he said. "Pull out a Bible, the wall would come down."

    Cochran learned what bigots have known for centuries: The road to violence can run straight through the Holy Book.

    As hate crimes make headlines -- synagogue burnings and murders of gay men in California, racially inspired shootings in the Midwest -- Americans are seeing how the texts that inspire love and solace in most people can motivate others toward something very different.
    b)there seem to be two different interpretations of what the koran (spelling) mean to practicing Muslims
    I have read there are far more. One source said there were 73. There are multiple sects of Judaism, Christianity and most large religions.

    c) since I myself am not a Muslim, who is properly practicing their religion? The radicals? The peaceful ones? Both?
    I wouldn't answer that question about any religion. Who is proper, the Roman Catholic, the Apostolic Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Lutheran? the Mormon? the..... which one? In my opinion that is the wrong question in this case. The more correct question would be, are most Muslims violent or peaceful? I can answer that. Most want peace. Islamists don't. There is the same kind of perversion of one set of holy books by Islamists as there is by the Christian Identity of another set.

    I believe these are all fair questions. Last time I checked, we haven't been recent victims of acts of terrorism by groups of any other religion.
    Actually we have, just not on the scale.

    I realize there is more to your statement, but the underlying subtext to me is that there is a holy war of all Islam. To me it seems that there is more fear than reality to that. If I misjudged your writing I apologize in advance.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    I wouldn't answer that question about any religion. Who is proper, the Roman Catholic, the Apostolic Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Lutheran? the Mormon? the..... which one? In my opinion that is the wrong question in this case. The more correct question would be, are most Muslims violent or peaceful? I can answer that. Most want peace. Islamists don't. There is the same kind of perversion of one set of holy books by Islamists as there is by the Christian Identity of another set.
    That's a dangerous question. It retains a notion of imputable liability, a notion that as long as Muslims "have the right numbers" then everything is okay.

    What needs to be established here is that someone should not be held liable for the actions of others (absent some element of complicity, conspiracy, or whatnot). Not liable in the legal sense, obviously, but not liable in a social sense also. If there are one hundred Muslims scattered about America and ninety-nine are terrorists, should the hundredth be liable also? No. Not in any sense.

    Unless we're prepared to call Islam a violent religion -- that the Qur'an promotes violence, that adhering to its tenets is embracing violence, that being a believer equates to an affirmative duty to act violently -- then we can't possibly associate Random Muslim with Terrorist Muslim. (And just in case: Islam is not a violent religion.)

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Unless we're prepared to call Islam a violent religion -- that the Qur'an promotes violence, that adhering to its tenets is embracing violence, that being a believer equates to an affirmative duty to act violently -- then we can't possibly associate Random Muslim with Terrorist Muslim. (And just in case: Islam is not a violent religion.)
    It seems to be acceptable to associate Islam with its most extreme (read crazy) followers, but when someone points out the lunacy of the most extreme (again read crazy) followers of Christianity and/or Catholicism the person just hates religion or is themselves crazy.

    The reason, as near i can tell, is because Muslims are in the minority in this country. It is the same reason we look like crap to the rest of the world and the same reason that Barack Obama is trying to build bridges across the world. Then he takes crap for that. Then the whole cycle repeats itself, we look bad for giving him such crap.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
    It seems to be acceptable to associate Islam with its most extreme (read crazy) followers, but when someone points out the lunacy of the most extreme (again read crazy) followers of Christianity and/or Catholicism the person just hates religion or is themselves crazy.
    Well...that may have something to do with the fact that radical Islam is at war with every ****ing civilization on the planet.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    It seems to be acceptable to associate Islam with its most extreme (read crazy) followers, but when someone points out the lunacy of the most extreme (again read crazy) followers of Christianity and/or Catholicism the person just hates religion or is themselves crazy.
    Just my take: I tend to stray away from that argument. First, it only pisses the opponent off. Second, the argument only stresses that these associations have precedent and that the opponent is a hypocrite. The argument does not stress that these associations are illogical.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    I know you did not aim this at me specifically, but I would like to reply.

    To your first sentance ] I do believe that there are terrorists who are Muslim, but, I do not believe that Muslims as a group are terrorists. The very basis of this statement implies just the opposite. In fact, there are bad Muslims, and bad Christians, and bad Jews, and bad Hindus, and bad Sikhs, and..... well you get the picture. That said, most of these people are not bad. I am not saying most of them are saints, just that they are not bad.


    Absolutely correct, as have self proclaimed members of other groups.
    source




    I have read there are far more. One source said there were 73. There are multiple sects of Judaism, Christianity and most large religions.



    I wouldn't answer that question about any religion. Who is proper, the Roman Catholic, the Apostolic Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Lutheran? the Mormon? the..... which one? In my opinion that is the wrong question in this case. The more correct question would be, are most Muslims violent or peaceful? I can answer that. Most want peace. Islamists don't. There is the same kind of perversion of one set of holy books by Islamists as there is by the Christian Identity of another set.



    Actually we have, just not on the scale.

    I realize there is more to your statement, but the underlying subtext to me is that there is a holy war of all Islam. To me it seems that there is more fear than reality to that. If I misjudged your writing I apologize in advance.
    First let me say I appreciate all of the resonses so far. Sir, you are absolutely correct, I should have rephrased the one question. After I reread I was implying that one be correct and the other not when for all I know both are.

    Thanks to all of you my reading skills are sharpening up but I still have an occaisional lapse properly expressing myself in text.

    Those that are preparing to burn the Koran are going to make a huge mistake IMO even though I'm sure that the act would be protected. It's the same type of insensitivity that I'm upset over with the builders of the cultural center.I guess time will tell how this one shakes out.

    This is a very challenging group of posters and I am looking forward to chatting with you all soon....

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Just my take: I tend to stray away from that argument. First, it only pisses the opponent off. Second, the argument only stresses that these associations have precedent and that the opponent is a hypocrite. The argument does not stress that these associations are illogical.
    It is the only reason i can think of why the majority sentiment is acceptable. I really do try to stay away from a moral argument (im right, your wrong) but i cant find any facts to their argument. Islam is bad because a couple of wackjobs did something horrible. We are always lectured about how we (people to the left) judge the right wing by the actions of extremists, but they are quick to do that with this group of people (muslims). I do not like to portray a large group by the actions of nutjobs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    It is the only reason i can think of why the majority sentiment is acceptable. I really do try to stay away from a moral argument (im right, your wrong) but i cant find any facts to their argument. Islam is bad because a couple of wackjobs did something horrible. We are always lectured about how we (people to the left) judge the right wing by the actions of extremists, but they are quick to do that with this group of people (muslims). I do not like to portray a large group by the actions of nutjobs.
    Sorry, my last post was a little confusing.

    The argument makes sense. And it certainly highlights the hypocrisy. And I agree with everything you've said here.

    I only meant that responding to "Islam is [X]" with "Well hell, so is Christianity" argument tends to piss off the other person, even if it is a valid point.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Sorry, my last post was a little confusing.

    The argument makes sense. And it certainly highlights the hypocrisy. And I agree with everything you've said here.

    I only meant that responding to "Islam is [X]" with "Well hell, so is Christianity" argument tends to piss off the other person, even if it is a valid point.
    Which actually points out that I failed to make my point, which is that both have whack jobs who claim the faith, but it is not the faith in and of itself.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

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    By the way, all Christians should come out and denounce burn a Quran day.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    By the way, all Christians should come out and denounce burn a Quran day.
    As a Jew, I think you said it wrong. All Americans, not just Christians, should come out for the denunciation. I just don't want to point at any group in particular for this horrible idea of burning anyones holy books as a positive statement.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Which actually points out that I failed to make my point, which is that both have whack jobs who claim the faith, but it is not the faith in and of itself.
    Exactly.

    My last two posts need to be stitched together to get my real point, but that's essentially it:

    To say "Yeah, Islam has whack jobs, but hey, so does Christianity!" fails to point out that associating those whack jobs with the religion (and its "mainstream" adherents) is illogical. In other words, it only goes to show the hypocrisy at hand -- which is fine -- but tends to drag both religions down by their whack jobs instead of the logical take: recognizing that the whack jobs are NOT the religion or its other adherents.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    As a Jew, I think you said it wrong. All Americans, not just Christians, should come out for the denunciation. I just don't want to point at any group in particular for this horrible idea of burning anyones holy books as a positive statement.
    I agree with you, but if Christians do it then it will have the most positive message. It is like any other situation, take Darfur for instance. If 100 celebrities come out and say "stop treating them like that" it really accomplishes nothing (little to nothing maybe), but if people from Darfur say "stop treating us like that" then it carries so much more weight.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    By the way, all Christians should come out and denounce burn a Quran day.
    I wish I could whack the guy behind that upside his head. Total & complete moron.
    "If [Republicans] were around when Columbus set sail, they must have been founding members of the Flat Earth Society." -- Pres. Barack Obama

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