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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Well i guess all Muslims have to publicly condemn the acts or we just dont know. Honestly, i would be offended if people asked me to condemn all the acts that white people had committed. Do i need to apologize and condemn the US government for what they did to the native americans before i decide to build a house? Do i need to apologize for all the things the eastern europeans did before i go visit europe? But that is just the way i see it.
    If peaceful Muslims don't do something to disagree with radicals doesn't this make it easier to generalize them as being one?

    Human relations are a work in progress, you are spot on to not need to apologize for the past, but sometimes it is necessary to revisit the past to show that the lesson was learned....

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    I was in no way condoning the end result, merely stating that emotion is a component of forming opinions and sometimes cannot be rationalized in all situations. On the record, for myself, I believe the individual culpable for their opinions.

    On the second statement, sometimes I tend to be black and white and don't recognize the grey. I was questioning why peaceful minded Muslims didn't appear to do something to define themselves a little better. The provided links helped shed some light for me.
    What's a better line of distinction than that between "suicide bomber" and "not a suicide bomber"? The definitions seem to be pretty clearly drawn.

    Do you preface every personal conversation with the fact that you're against genocide? Would you find it ridiculous if society demanded that you do so?

    Also, by your statement about not caring about the scheduled opening of the center to be on 9/11, can I also take that to mean that Beck didn't offend you with his rally on the date he chose?
    Correct, Glenn Beck did not offend me by choosing the date of MLK's March on Washington speech for his rally. And for good measure, I'll establish all the same: the scheduling looked like someone trying to draw a connection between two completely unrelated things.

    Now, I didn't watch the Glenn Beck rally, so I can't really comment on Beck's intentions. If I knew his true intentions, there's a chance I might be "offended" (using our common parlance as a standard -- I don't really get offended by people I don't know). I won't speculate on his intentions and just leave it at that.

    The Ground Zero controversy is the same deal. I/we don't really know the Imam's intentions. If his intention is to offend, well then there's a chance I might be "offended." I would still, however, support his right to build this cultural center. That's why I don't particularly care about his intentions.

    This Ground Zero controversy continues to focus on whether the Imam can build there. He can. Those that realize this and are still against it proceed to question the Imam's motives. But that's all speculation. And for what? To shame the man publicly? It's a witchhunt, frankly.
    Last edited by philab; 09-05-2010 at 01:48 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    So? Im going to make the same statement that people of common sense make to the whole "synagogue in Saudi Arabia" argument.

    Why should we limit our religious tolerance to countries like Saudi Arabia or honestly any other country? Last time i checked we were the country that set the table for everyone else to follow.
    That must be your idea because I never said anything about limiting our amount of religious tolerance to countries like Saudi Arabia.

    I believe the hard line Islamic group in Indonesia should think about their own religious short comings.
    Last edited by SLY WILLIAMS; 09-05-2010 at 02:19 PM.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite no matter what their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful or dishonest poster please do not expect a reply.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    If peaceful Muslims don't do something to disagree with radicals doesn't this make it easier to generalize them as being one?

    Human relations are a work in progress, you are spot on to not need to apologize for the past, but sometimes it is necessary to revisit the past to show that the lesson was learned....
    So that makes it ok to profile them? No, that is absolutely racist/bigotive/whatever you want to call it.

    I have never publicly condemn Timothy McVeigh, i am peaceful, so i guess that means i havent "do(ne) soemthing to disagree with radicals". So it is ok to generalize about me? According to the logic you presented, absolutely yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    That must be your idea because I never said anything about limiting our amount of religious tolerance to countries like Saudi Arabia.

    I believe the hard line Islamic group in Indonesia should think about their own religious short comings.
    This is your exact quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    Indonesia gov only officially recognizes 6 religions.

    They [Indonesia] do not even recognize the Jewish religion.
    You are specifically referring to we shouldnt be as tolerant of them because "they do not even recognize the Jewish religion". That has absolutely no bearing on the conversation but it needed to be brought up, i guess to take a shot. This thread is in reference to the NYC Community Center not Indonesia.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    This is your exact quote:
    You are specifically referring to we shouldnt be as tolerant of them because "they do not even recognize the Jewish religion". That has absolutely no bearing on the conversation but it needed to be brought up, i guess to take a shot. This thread is in reference to the NYC Community Center not Indonesia.
    My exact quote are my words. Your words are not my words. My words are there in black and white. I never once said we shouldnt be tolerant of somebodies religion because they do not recognize the Jewish religion. I pointed out the inconsistency and hypocritical nature of these hard line Muslims in Indonesia in regards to other religions. You do not think for me or speak for me so dont even try that crap again.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite no matter what their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful or dishonest poster please do not expect a reply.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    My exact quote are my words. Your words are not my words. My words are there in black and white. I never once said we shouldnt be tolerant of somebodies religion because they do not recognize the Jewish religion. I pointed out the inconsistency and hypocritical nature of these hard line Muslims in Indonesia in regards to other religions. You do not think for me or speak for me so dont even try that crap again.
    Then why bring it up at all? It serves no purpose if you dont intend to correlate the two.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Then why bring it up at all? It serves no purpose if you dont intend to correlate the two.
    Why shouldnt I bring it up? I was responding to arkanian215's prior posted article (link) about 3000 hard line Islamists protesting in Indonesia.

    My pointing out the 3000 Indonesian hard liners hypocritical ways has just as much purpose as any post on this board. Do I tell you what you can or can not post?

    If you dont like my post then ignore my post but dont twist my quote beyond recognition, add things I never said and then attribute it to me.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite no matter what their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful or dishonest poster please do not expect a reply.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    So that makes it ok to profile them? No, that is absolutely racist/bigotive/whatever you want to call it.

    I have never publicly condemn Timothy McVeigh, i am peaceful, so i guess that means i havent "do(ne) soemthing to disagree with radicals". So it is ok to generalize about me? According to the logic you presented, absolutely yes.



    This is your exact quote:



    You are specifically referring to we shouldnt be as tolerant of them because "they do not even recognize the Jewish religion". That has absolutely no bearing on the conversation but it needed to be brought up, i guess to take a shot. This thread is in reference to the NYC Community Center not Indonesia.
    I was speaking specifically about Muslims, I'm not sure why you applied the argument across the whole spectrum. Personally, I'm searching for an answer on how I feel about the whole thing, If that makes me a racist, bigot or whatever to you, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    I was somehow under the impression that open discussion was a good thing......

  9. #39
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    We can argue with each other ad nausea...or we can read some interesting quotes from the leader of this mosque/cultural center/McDonald's with a crescent moon. (Sorry, didn't want to make any "blatant lies" by calling it the wrong thing. )

    "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims," said Imam Fiesal Abdul Rauf, speaking at the Bob Hawke Prime Ministerial Center during a question and answer session dedicated to what sponsors say was a dialogue to improve relations between America and the Muslim world.

    "You may remember that the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations," said Rauf, who called himself a spokesman for Islam.

    Raud added that having homes and lives destroyed does not justify "bombing innocent civilians" or "actions of terrorism."

    "But after 50 years of -- in many cases -- oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?" Rauf asked, explaining, "I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotion of pain."
    And the kicker...
    The imam is currently on a taxpayer-funded State Department trip to the Mideast, where he is serving as a representative of the United States.
    To think that this nutball is on a taxpayer-funded trip to the Mideast to represent the USA makes me sick to my stomach. I have half a mind to march up to Hillary's office and demand every cent of that money back.
    "If [Republicans] were around when Columbus set sail, they must have been founding members of the Flat Earth Society." -- Pres. Barack Obama

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    We can argue with each other ad nausea...or we can read some interesting quotes from the leader of this mosque/cultural center/McDonald's with a crescent moon. (Sorry, didn't want to make any "blatant lies" by calling it the wrong thing. )



    And the kicker...


    To think that this nutball is on a taxpayer-funded trip to the Mideast to represent the USA makes me sick to my stomach. I have half a mind to march up to Hillary's office and demand every cent of that money back.
    Not George W. Bush though. It was all fine and good enough for Rauf to hold the exact same job for the Bush administration, as well as lecturing CIA agents on Islam, AFTER he said:

    "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States' policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."

    Oh no problem there. Now all of the sudden Rauf is some "radical extremist".

    LOL too funny.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    We can argue with each other ad nausea...or we can read some interesting quotes from the leader of this mosque/cultural center/McDonald's with a crescent moon. (Sorry, didn't want to make any "blatant lies" by calling it the wrong thing. )



    And the kicker...


    To think that this nutball is on a taxpayer-funded trip to the Mideast to represent the USA makes me sick to my stomach. I have half a mind to march up to Hillary's office and demand every cent of that money back.
    The entire interview here:
    http://www.unisa.edu.au/hawkecentre/...mam_Feisal.mp3
    Q: [Paraphrased] Why can't the broader Muslim community teach the young people that what the fanatics teach is wrong?

    A: It is being done. The broader community is in fact criticizing and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. [Describes a conference of leading Muslim scholars in Jordan where the application of the label infidel by extremists is done contrary to what the Quran says. Jews and Christians are people of the book.]

    The complexity arises, sir, from the fact that, from political problems and the history of the politics between the West and the Muslim world. We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims. You may remember that the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State was asked whether this was worth it? She said it was worth it.

    What complicates the discussion intra-Islamically is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much of the injustice in the Arab and Muslim world. It is a difficult subject to address with Western audiences. It is an issue that must be pointed out and must be raised.

    How many of you have seen the documentary Fahrenheit 9-11? The vast majority of you or at least half here. You remember the scene of the Iraqi woman whose house was bombed and she was just screaming "What have they done?" In Arabic, well you don't know Arabic, in Arabic it was extremely powerful. Her house was gone. Her husband I think was killed. It was an extremely powerful scene. What wrong did he do?

    I find myself weeping when I watch that scene. And I imagine myself if I'm a 15 year old nephew of this deceased man of what I would have felt. Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on paper but when collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed that this does not justify your actions of terrorism? It's hard. It's true it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians. That does not solve the problems. But after 50 years of -- in many cases -- oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention? I'm just providing you with the arguments that are happening intra-Islamically by those who feel the emotional pain.

    There is a sense in the Arab and Muslim world that the European world and Western world does not care about our lives or human lives. There is a perception in the Muslim world that the issue is about race. That the Palestinian Israeli issue is less about religion than it is about race. About 25% or more of the Palestinians or Arabs are Christians. Many people in the West are unaware that Palestinians are not uniformly Muslim. There is a large number of Arab Christians but they are not regarded as being equal. These issues have to be looked at, recognized, addressed and solved.

    That's why in our initiative we have urged that resolution of the the Arab Israeli conflict as being number one on the list of the list of things that need to be done. Because you address this problem and a whole host of problems will be addressed automatically.

    How many of you have read the Tipping Point? I strongly recommend it. It talks about crime in NYC. It talks about how just the removal of graffiti on NYC subways reduced crime in NYC. Now, how would you argue the link between graffiti on the walls of the subway and crime? It's hard to determine however it was proven to be so. It is much more evident to many people what the resolution of the Arab Israeli conflict will do. And as Tony Blair's urging the resolution of the crisis and the lethargy with which the Bush administration has been actually engaged in trying to resolve this crisis amplifies the perception in the Arab and Muslim world that our pain is not heard, our anguish is not heard. And simple things like when President Bush went to Iraq on Thanksgiving to address the US troops, he did not speak at all to the Iraqi people. He could have left a tape message addressing the Iraqi street, congratulating them on removing a tyrant who they all wanted removed and saying that he asked Congress to allot x, $70 billion of which some amount will be for education. Speak to the people. He does this every year in the US. Imagine if he came here to Australia to speak to US troops and spoke to them and not to the Australian people. How would you feel?

    How many of you have seen the documentary the Fog of War? It is an important documentary in which Robert McNamara was interviewed. [Details about the documentary] The first lesson is empathize with the other side. The number one thing we need in the West is to empathize, to see yourselves from the eyes of the other. If you are a man who wants to have a wonderful relationship with a woman, you have to be able to see how you look from the eyes of a woman. If you are a white man seeking to deal with the Aborigines, you'll have to look at yourself through the eyes of an Aborigine. And you'll see things that you cannot see otherwise. The West needs to look at themselves through the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world. And when you do, you will see the predicament that exists within the Muslim community.

    I am not saying this to condone acts like the London bombing. They are completely against Islamic law. Suicide bombings. Completely against Islamic law. Completely. 100%. But the facts of the matter is that people are more motivated by emotion than logic. If their emotions are in one place, and their logic is behind, their emotions with drive their decisions, more often than not. And therefore, we must address the emotional state of people and the extent in which those emotions are shaped by things we can control. This is how will shape a better future.
    To me your quote sounds more like a journalist grabbing a couple of lines out of speech and making it sound like Rauf is using America's and the West's actions as an excuse for terrorism than what he actually meant by those words. To me he's saying that regardless of what America or the West does, none of it makes terrorism ok because it is against Islamic law. None of it. He's saying the fact is people are emotional and when their loved ones are injured or killed and their lives shattered over 50 years their hearts more readily accept ides of extremists. Folks like the man who asked the question will say, "Why doesn't the Muslim community just teach their kids that Islamic extremism is wrong" and not understand how difficult it is for people to listen to their message when circumstances tell their audience differently.
    Last edited by arkanian215; 09-06-2010 at 12:27 PM.

  12. #42
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    DF28, this is not an attack, it is an honest to goodness question. Where did you find the quotes in your last statement? You did not list your source. Because of the lack of source, it looks like an entire statement. We now know it is taken out of context because of arkanian215's fuller quote, and I am absolutely sure that you did not take your quote out of context purposely with the intent to mislead. You have always argued your points forcefully, with integrity, which makes me wonder, where this snippet came from that on its face argues the exact opposite.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    We can argue with each other ad nausea...or we can read some interesting quotes from the leader of this mosque/cultural center/McDonald's with a crescent moon. (Sorry, didn't want to make any "blatant lies" by calling it the wrong thing. )



    And the kicker...


    To think that this nutball is on a taxpayer-funded trip to the Mideast to represent the USA makes me sick to my stomach. I have half a mind to march up to Hillary's office and demand every cent of that money back.
    Ok...he has a different viewpoint than you do and feels that the US is partly to blame for the current political climate in the middle east. Which to my knowledge we are.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp

    From the ultra-liberal George W.H. Bush.
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  14. #44
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    I dont understand why people need a Muslim to say, "I am not a terrorist":

    a) Would you think to say that? There have been terrorist acts committed by Christians as well. Does that mean all Christians need to come out and confirm they are not terrorists? or do we just assume that most Christians are completely insane. Why don't Muslims get that same courtesy?

    b) Even if a Muslim did say that to one of these people that have a problem with Islam, wouldn't that person just dismiss it as, "What else would they say?"

  15. #45
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    Obviously you don't believe Muslim terrorists to be a threat, let me try to summarize my concern-

    a) self proclaimed muslims have committed acts of terrorism against the citizens of this country

    b)there seem to be two different interpretations of what the koran (spelling) mean to practicing Muslims

    c) since I myself am not a Muslim, who is properly practicing their religion? The radicals? The peaceful ones? Both?

    I believe these are all fair questions. Last time I checked, we haven't been recent victims of acts of terrorism by groups of any other religion. My questions on the matter centered around why there hadn't been more of an attempt by mainstream Muslims (proper terminology?) to distance them selves from radical Muslims. Arkanian provided me with numerous links of text of Muslims of varying involvement denouncing the acts of violence, they were very enlightening.

    Am I the only person to see things from this angle? I'm just looking for a little reassurance from those that practice that religion that there is a difference between the two factions. It appears from my observations that when ever the mics or cameras are on that Muslim spokespeople get very defensive and don't comment. Yes , some of the text links were from TV interviews so maybe it's just my bad for watching the wrong shows. It just seems to me that if I'm a spokesman for the Manhattan Center that a TV or radio interview would be a wonderful time to ackowledge the concerns of the protesters. Not very reassuring to people that know little of the Muslim faith.

    My questions and concerns have drawn comments of racism, bigotry and profiling. It's as if my inquiries signal that I'm some sort of bounty hunter of Muslims, I am not. In all fairness I will say that some of my comments have been blunt but that I meant no offense to any group.

    It seems that just as not knowing has caused fear among those that protest the Cultural center, I sense that same fear from those that support it when questions are raised. I am not advocating that every Muslim sign a promise or have a code with a secret ring. It would though go a long way to answer some simple questions through the mainstream media the next time opportunity presents itself.

    Before some of you get your panties in a bunch and ask me why the text answers are not enough, I do have a personal quirk about being able to hear and see a person say something that they expect me to believe. Sorry but I'm old school on some things, a look in the eye and a firm handshake go a long way with me....

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