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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    Let's not forget that the cultural center/Mosque's main supporters are DELIBERATELY planning to open the place on September 11, 2011 - exactly 10 years to day of the 9/11 attacks. Tell me there's not a connection there.
    I wont tell you that, but i will say that since there is going to have a memorial to 9/11 i will say that seems rather appropriate.

    Here is a list of things that will be in the community center (because quite frankly it is bull**** and a blatant lie to refer to it as a "mosque"):

    * outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
    * a 500-seat auditorium
    * a restaurant and culinary school
    * cultural amenities including exhibitions
    * education programs
    * a library, reading room and art studios
    * childcare services
    * a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
    * a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

    It will have a mosque, but isnt actually a mosque.

    http://park51.org.s105994.gridserver.com/facilities.htm
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    It might seem like nonsense, but I know how I'd feel if there was a huge terrorist attack at, say, the theme park where I work, and it killed hundreds of my fellow co-workers and thousands of guests. I know how that would have a devastating impact on where I live.
    Obviously.

    I know that, even 10 years later, there would still be a HUGE animosity toward anyone who'd support the religion from which the terrorists came from. While I personally didn't lose any family or friends at the NYC WTC, just as a fellow human being I have to empathize with how they feel about this.
    And here's where you run into trouble. We're talking over one billion people. ONE BILLION Muslims. Nineteen terrorists flew planes into the WTC, etc. Give me one billion people and I'll find you nineteen of just about anything. These guys weren't Muslims any more than Fred Phelps is a Christian. The defining characteristic here is "bat-**** crazy." That some people will use religion as a justification for bat-**** crazy actions and words means next to nothing.

    Again, Islam is a religion of one billion-plus people. And hey, Christianity falls in the same category. Now if a few of those one billion go off and do something stupid, should that really have any bearing on the rest of the one billion? [On a side note, this is why I hate labels, political parties, designations, etc.]

    Let's not forget that the cultural center/Mosque's main supporters are DELIBERATELY planning to open the place on September 11, 2011 - exactly 10 years to day of the 9/11 attacks. Tell me there's not a connection there.

    Also, the Mosque/cultural center's supporters claim to be all about building bridges of tolerance. Have they no idea how much further to that goal they'd be if they came out and stated that out of consideration for 9/11 victims' families, they would choose a location elsewhere in Manhattan for their Mosque/cultural center?
    Okay: there's not a connection there.

    Some people with no association to terrorism are opening a cultural center on the tenth anniversary of a terrorist attack.

    I'm not being facetious here. I know the connection you see. And I know that the Imam and those behind the project see some connection as well. But the truth of the matter is that there is no connection whatsoever.

    In other words, I question the logic of those offended by the religion, date, and/or location of this cultural center. Similarly, I question the logic of the Imam in choosing the date 9/11/2011 -- not because it is offensive, but because he is taking the same logical missteps as those who are offended. He's drawn some sort of bogus connection between 9/11/2001 and this cultural center just like everyone else.

  3. #18
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    Stop trying to rationalize how we get our opinions, that's somewhat an emotional process. You have to admit, the scheduling looks a tad distasteful. I thought that the Muslims were about building bridges.

    Until I see some attempt by mainstream Muslims to distance themselves from the radicals it will be my pleasure to NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. If you don't want to be generalized then show me how you are different. I don't think that is asking too much.....

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Stop trying to rationalize how we get our opinions, that's somewhat an emotional process. You have to admit, the scheduling looks a tad distasteful. I thought that the Muslims were about building bridges.

    Until I see some attempt by mainstream Muslims to distance themselves from the radicals it will be my pleasure to NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. If you don't want to be generalized then show me how you are different. I don't think that is asking too much.....
    http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
    How many mainstream Muslims do you need?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    WE'D REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULDN'T BUILD IT SO CLOSE TO WHERE MEMBERS OF YOUR RELIGION KILLED OUR LOVED ONES!!11!1!1!!"

    That was it, and because those people dared to express their feelings publicly, the other side started bringing in all sorts of straw men & red herrings to the point that Islamophobia has become the new homophobia. That's the real nonsense that's going on.
    That's great that you feel the need to speak for the 9/11 families...when even THEY are split on this issue.

    You're revisionist history posting isn't legitimate or factual. It was reported in 2009 that they were going to build a community center at that location...and not a peep from anybody. NOW that we're in election season, all of the sudden it becomes an "issue". I think it's clear what's going on here. The "Muslim Boogeyman" has been resurrected to scare the public...

    Using the logic of these Islamophobes, maybe we should worry more about these Christians, considering there have been more cases of Catholic priests abusing children than the 19 hijackers that attacked us on 9/11...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
    How many mainstream Muslims do you need?
    Thank you for the link. Just wondering why this isn't more prominent to the public? Why do Muslim spokespersons seem to avoid the subject in public. I'm sorry for being a bit old school here but I still appreciate the sincerity of a statement made in person.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    That's great that you feel the need to speak for the 9/11 families...when even THEY are split on this issue.

    You're revisionist history posting isn't legitimate or factual. It was reported in 2009 that they were going to build a community center at that location...and not a peep from anybody. NOW that we're in election season, all of the sudden it becomes an "issue". I think it's clear what's going on here. The "Muslim Boogeyman" has been resurrected to scare the public...

    Using the logic of these Islamophobes, maybe we should worry more about these Christians, considering there have been more cases of Catholic priests abusing children than the 19 hijackers that attacked us on 9/11...
    Surprising. I did not know that.
    http://www.google.com/trends?q=groun...ate=all&sort=0
    The article Scmooze is referring to:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/ny...pagewanted=all

    It was on A1. Not that hard to miss I suppose.

    I'll disagree that the timing was politically motivated. I think it was because of the NY Post article.
    Last edited by arkanian215; 09-04-2010 at 01:21 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Stop trying to rationalize how we get our opinions, that's somewhat an emotional process. You have to admit, the scheduling looks a tad distasteful. I thought that the Muslims were about building bridges.
    Oh, so sort of a "I hate my mother, so I'm taking it out on my wife" situation. But everything's okay since it's "an emotional process"?

    Again, the scheduling looks like someone trying to draw some connection between two completely unrelated things. I don't know the intentions -- whether to be insensitive or to promote understanding or to cause controversy or whatever -- and I don't particularly care because it changes nothing.
    Until I see some attempt by mainstream Muslims to distance themselves from the radicals it will be my pleasure to NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. If you don't want to be generalized then show me how you are different. I don't think that is asking too much.....
    That's horrid logic.

    What do "mainstream Muslims" have to do to distance themselves from radicals? Not supporting terrorism isn't enough?

    It's the radicals who distanced themselves from mainstream Muslims. Mission accomplished.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    The thing that caught my eye was it says he owes roughly a quarter-of-a-million in back taxes. But all it provides is links to "Entity Information" to properties, which may or may not be his, here is an example:

    http://appext9.dos.state.ny.us/corp_...results_page=0

    Secondly, you cant see anywhere (because it is what they use to cite the data) that any tax money is owed. It is a link to the Dept of State for NY, but there is no financial data to it. You have to pay to get access to it.

    http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/20...-mob-enforcer/
    ___

    Ths is all sounding like a lot of McCarthyism to me, i guess Muslim is the new Commie.
    With all the marxism talk I think commie is the new commie actually.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by corralski View Post
    Thank you for the link. Just wondering why this isn't more prominent to the public? Why do Muslim spokespersons seem to avoid the subject in public. I'm sorry for being a bit old school here but I still appreciate the sincerity of a statement made in person.
    Supposedly the largest Muslim American organization's leader (at the time) Imam W.D. Mohammed denounced the attacks calling the actions un-Islamic and evil on the same day of the attacks. I don't think he got much press, if any from the main stream. However, a couple of prominent Muslim scholars condemned the actions on a segment on 60 minutes. Transcript I couldn't find the video to go with it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    Supposedly the largest Muslim American organization's leader (at the time) Imam W.D. Mohammed denounced the attacks calling the actions un-Islamic and evil on the same day of the attacks. I don't think he got much press, if any from the main stream. However, a couple of prominent Muslim scholars condemned the actions on a segment on 60 minutes. Transcript I couldn't find the video to go with it.
    Well i guess all Muslims have to publicly condemn the acts or we just dont know. Honestly, i would be offended if people asked me to condemn all the acts that white people had committed. Do i need to apologize and condemn the US government for what they did to the native americans before i decide to build a house? Do i need to apologize for all the things the eastern europeans did before i go visit europe? But that is just the way i see it.
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  12. #27
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    JAKARTA, Indonesia Thousands of Indonesian Muslims are rallying outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta to denounce a Florida church's plan to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11.

    The Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., said it will burn the Islamic holy book on the ninth anniversary of the terror attacks. Local officials have denied a permit for the bonfire on the church's grounds. But the center, which made headlines last year by distributing T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil,'' insists it will go ahead with the plan.

    About 3,000 members of a hard-line Islamic group marched Saturday to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Jakarta, waving banners and posters condemning the plan. The group organized similar rallies in five other cities across Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

    I wonder if some 25% think we're an intolerant, anti-Muslim nation.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    Oh, so sort of a "I hate my mother, so I'm taking it out on my wife" situation. But everything's okay since it's "an emotional process"?

    Again, the scheduling looks like someone trying to draw some connection between two completely unrelated things. I don't know the intentions -- whether to be insensitive or to promote understanding or to cause controversy or whatever -- and I don't particularly care because it changes nothing.


    That's horrid logic.

    What do "mainstream Muslims" have to do to distance themselves from radicals? Not supporting terrorism isn't enough?

    It's the radicals who distanced themselves from mainstream Muslims. Mission accomplished.
    I was in no way condoning the end result, merely stating that emotion is a component of forming opinions and sometimes cannot be rationalized in all situations. On the record, for myself, I believe the individual culpable for their opinions.

    On the second statement, sometimes I tend to be black and white and don't recognize the grey. I was questioning why peaceful minded Muslims didn't appear to do something to define themselves a little better. The provided links helped shed some light for me.

    Also, by your statement about not caring about the scheduled opening of the center to be on 9/11, can I also take that to mean that Beck didn't offend you with his rally on the date he chose?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

    I wonder if some 25% think we're an intolerant, anti-Muslim nation.
    Indonesia gov only officially recognizes 6 religions.

    They do not even recognize the Jewish religion.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    Indonesia gov only officially recognizes 6 religions.

    They do not even recognize the Jewish religion.
    So? Im going to make the same statement that people of common sense make to the whole "synagogue in Saudi Arabia" argument.

    Why should we limit our religious tolerance to countries like Saudi Arabia or honestly any other country? Last time i checked we were the country that set the table for everyone else to follow.
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