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  1. #16
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    i'll take lester
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  2. #17
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    Buchholz has a 2.36 era man...and a 185+ era......you obviously havent been keeping up with buchholz to think he has a 2.7 era.

  3. #18
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    If the Sox needed to win one game today, and both Lester and Buchholz were equally rested, I'd probably go with Lester, because I think that he's a more mature veteran. However, I should probably add that the decision might also be affected by who the game was against and in what park, since the difference between Lester and Buchholz is quite small and the value of using a LHP vs. a RHP against a given opponent might be a valuable deciding factor.

    I think that Buchholz is an ace quality pitcher in the making, who's only about 2 years behind Lester in his development and maturity. Clay is showing everyone this season why the Sox were so high on him for so long. Now he just needs to do it consistently for a while to gain the level of respect that Lester already has. This isn't a knock in Buchholz. I have every confidence that he'll attain the same level of respect that Lester now enjoys.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    Buchholz has a 2.36 era man...and a 185+ era......you obviously havent been keeping up with buchholz to think he has a 2.7 era.
    And obviously you don't put any credence in a "track record". Lester has a sterling one, Buchholz is still making his. Not to mention Lester is a lefty and built like a horse while Buchholz is built like a bone rack.

    '08: 210.1 5.6 144
    '09: 203.1 5.6 138
    '10: 161.0 4.5 156

    '08: 076.0 -1.2 069
    '09: 092.0 1.7 112
    '10: 133.1 3.9 185

    So basically Lester dominates Scrawnyholz in every category the past 3 years except Lester has a "mere" ERA+ of 156 and Drunkholz has an ERA+ of 185, and based on that you are willing to base your argument?

    All I can say is that your argument is bogus, and I can't wait until your new matchbox shipment comes in....


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #20
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    What Lester did last year and the year before has no barring on who has been better this year....none what so ever.....

  6. #21
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    Guru, it seems to me that asking who's having a better year between Lester and Buchholz is a relatively meaningless question. Both are having excellent years, and trying to decide who's "best right now" tends to require drilling down into the peripheral stats.

    I think that a better question is, assuming that both were equally well rested, who would you want starting game #1 of a playoff series. And as I said earlier, that decision might be somewhat affected by who and where you're playing. That is, against the Yankees in Yankee Stadium, starting the lefty Lester might be a better choice.

    However, I tend to think that I'd probably just pick Lester to start game #1 of a playoff series over Buchholz, simply because even though they are both very, very close to equally good, I'd stick with Lester as my #1 pitcher, based on his greater experience. But at this point in time, Buchholz certainly seems like the team's 2nd best starter.

    (And frankly, DiceK seems to be quietly pitching like the team's 3rd best starter.)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    What Lester did last year and the year before has no barring on who has been better this year....none what so ever.....
    Ummm ace, what does this mean? "Honestly, who has been the best pitcher for Boston, Lester or Buchholz?"

    It says nothing about this year, does it? That's the title of this thread. But let's say someone actually read your text and wants to play:

    Lester has been more valuable due to more innings pitched at nearly the same rate as Partyholz.

    As for Crucis's point, it's clear that Lester is considered the team ace by the team, and if we get into any playoffs, he'll be the #1 SP unless he is hurt.

    So outside of a higher rate - at lower innings advantage Skinnyholz has, the answers are all on Lester's column. BTW, how did Lester earn that designation if not from 2008, 2009, and the 2007 playoffs? Also consider Lester has done all this - delayed by cancer - and is only 7 months older then Slowholz.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 08-18-2010 at 12:19 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    Buchholz has a 2.36 era man...and a 185+ era......you obviously havent been keeping up with buchholz to think he has a 2.7 era.
    dude just stop with the nonsense
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Ummm ace, what does this mean? "Honestly, who has been the best pitcher for Boston, Lester or Buchholz?"

    It says nothing about this year, does it? That's the title of this thread. But let's say someone actually read your text and wants to play:

    Lester has been more valuable due to more innings pitched at nearly the same rate as Partyholz.

    As for Crucis's point, it's clear that Lester is considered the team ace by the team, and if we get into any playoffs, he'll be the #1 SP unless he is hurt.

    So outside of a higher rate - at lower innings advantage Skinnyholz has, the answers are all on Lester's column. BTW, how did Lester earn that designation if not from 2008, 2009, and the 2007 playoffs? Also consider Lester has done all this - delayed by cancer - and is only 7 months older then Slowholz.
    The last sentence in my OP says otherwise.

    I just find it downright disgusting that a very own boston fan is going to underrate buchholz like this.....I mean you get to see him pitch every 5th day all the time so you should have a greater appreication for the type of pitcher he has been this year than anyone else.

    I mean, a 2.36 era in the AL East? That is video game stats. Will he fall off? Sure will.... but that's because nobody can keep that pace up against 3 huge offensive teams in the same division as you.....bound to have a bad outting sooner or later, happens to the best of them......but the point is THROUGH THIS YEAR ONLY, BUCHHOLZ HAS BEEN THEIR BEST PITCHER.

    What happens down the road we don't know.....but I wouldn't put it past Buchholz to be their ace when both Lester and him are 30 years old..... he has the "stuff" and make up to be that player, there is no questioning that.

  10. #25
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    Lester is better


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    The last sentence in my OP says otherwise.

    I just find it downright disgusting that a very own boston fan is going to underrate buchholz like this.....I mean you get to see him pitch every 5th day all the time so you should have a greater appreication for the type of pitcher he has been this year than anyone else.

    I mean, a 2.36 era in the AL East? That is video game stats. Will he fall off? Sure will.... but that's because nobody can keep that pace up against 3 huge offensive teams in the same division as you.....bound to have a bad outting sooner or later, happens to the best of them......but the point is THROUGH THIS YEAR ONLY, BUCHHOLZ HAS BEEN THEIR BEST PITCHER.

    What happens down the road we don't know.....but I wouldn't put it past Buchholz to be their ace when both Lester and him are 30 years old..... he has the "stuff" and make up to be that player, there is no questioning that.

    Guru, Bags isn't dissing Buchholz. Yes, Buchholz has an eye-popping ERA ... no doubt about it.

    But let me be clear, I don't think that anyone particularly cares about whether Buchholz or Lester has been the Sox' best pitcher for "THIS YEAR ONLY". The fact is that they've BOTH been outstanding. Buchholz has been superior in some stats, Lester in others.

    However, the fact of the matter is that Lester has a longer history of outstanding pitching, while Buchholz only seems to have finally figured things out in the last year. And that being the case, it is widely acknowledged that Lester is the team's #1 pitcher.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Lester has been more valuable due to more innings pitched at nearly the same rate as Partyholz.
    Bags, I hate to diss Buchholz over IP's, because Clay missed 3 starts while he was on the DL. If you add 20 more IP to Clay's IP total, he's pretty close to Lester's IP total. Also, Buchholz has averaged 6.1 IP per start, while Lester's at 6.2. All in all, that's quite close. Both of them are providing good, long quality starts nearly every time out.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    The last sentence in my OP says otherwise.

    I just find it downright disgusting that a very own boston fan is going to underrate buchholz like this.....I mean you get to see him pitch every 5th day all the time so you should have a greater appreication for the type of pitcher he has been this year than anyone else.

    I mean, a 2.36 era in the AL East? That is video game stats. Will he fall off? Sure will.... but that's because nobody can keep that pace up against 3 huge offensive teams in the same division as you.....bound to have a bad outting sooner or later, happens to the best of them......but the point is THROUGH THIS YEAR ONLY, BUCHHOLZ HAS BEEN THEIR BEST PITCHER.

    What happens down the road we don't know.....but I wouldn't put it past Buchholz to be their ace when both Lester and him are 30 years old..... he has the "stuff" and make up to be that player, there is no questioning that.
    You asked a question. I answered. To date Buchholz isn't Lester's equal and at the end of the careers I'm quite willing to bet the farm that he won't either. And finally this year Lester is better because Buchholz has only 82.8% of Lester's innings. 15 out of 24 GS are QS for Lester. 14 out of 21 for CB. 6 1/3 IP for CB per start. 6 2/3 for Lester. Just too much for Buccholz to climb out.... only 86.6% of the WAR of Lester... close. But not quite.

    You can overuse CAPS all you want young man - but so far Lester has been better then Buchholz this year. I'm sorry you let your emotions get the better of you.

    Now, back to what we don't like about each other:

    I've been a Red Sox fan since 1966. I need not explain myself to anyone on PSD. Certainly not a guy that comes on like gangbusters and yet constantly makes mistakes. Go back to your earliest posts I commented on them, maybe you can learn something.

    I find your ill thought out mega thread creation tiresome. Baseball careers take years to build, so far Lester crucifies Buchholz. If he hadn't lost time to cancer he might have Buchholz by 5x instead of the 3x he has him by now. Most Boston fans agree.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Bags, I hate to diss Buchholz over IP's, because Clay missed 3 starts while he was on the DL. If you add 20 more IP to Clay's IP total, he's pretty close to Lester's IP total. Also, Buchholz has averaged 6.1 IP per start, while Lester's at 6.2. All in all, that's quite close. Both of them are providing good, long quality starts nearly every time out.
    I'm sorry reality is the only measure here. If we want to play that game, give Lester back his games lost to fighting C.

    I'm fairly willing to agree that they are generally equally effective this year, but, not when a newbie tries to force that opinion out of me. No way. Then it's facts and figures and 86.6% higher WAR for Lester and K/BB rates, and the quality of the opponents, etc.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballguru3 View Post
    but the point is THROUGH THIS YEAR ONLY, BUCHHOLZ HAS BEEN THEIR BEST PITCHER.
    No CB isn't better - read the entries in the thread you created. Lester is better. Right now this year. Your opinion is an opinion, and it's factually and objectively not true. Provide evidence other then ERA+ to the contrary or move on.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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