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  1. #46
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    so you're also saying Montana, Elway and Marino never outsmarted defenses?
    That's not what I am saying at all. As a matter of fact to be a successful NFL qb you need to be smart (or incredibly gifted athletically.) Peyton is just smarter than the other qbs.

    By the way I agree with Marino being the next best because he was statistically dominant as well.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendX View Post
    You Sir, are an idiot.

    Manning has 4 Regular Season MVPs and 1 Superbowl MVP and only 1 Superbowl win...

    ... Why don't you ask him what he'd prefer?
    I'm not saying what he'd prefer. I'm saying as far as how good a QB is, Regular Season MVP's measure that perfectly. Deion Branch has a Super Bowl MVP.

    I'm not trying to say Rice made Montana, or that Manning made Harrison, but you have to admit they certainly made it easier for them.

  3. #48
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    While LegendX has some pretty good points and is making a good arguement how could anyone expect a Dolphins fan to say Peyton Manning is the best ever when the Dolphins themselves had Dan Marino who was one of if not the best quarterbacks ever.

    I am not saying he is a homer, but the fact remains people tend to side with their team if the debate is close. (i.e. McNabb vs Romo)

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX20Dawkin View Post
    While LegendX has some pretty good points and is making a good arguement how could anyone expect a Dolphins fan to say Peyton Manning is the best ever when the Dolphins themselves had Dan Marino who was one of if not the best quarterbacks ever.

    I am not saying he is a homer, but the fact remains people tend to side with their team if the debate is close. (i.e. McNabb vs Romo)
    Marino was amazing, and I agree. he isn't a homer but still... he's a dolphins fan and marino was the truth.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX20Dawkin View Post
    As a matter of fact to be a successful NFL qb you need to be smart (or incredibly gifted athletically.)
    2 words. Terry Bradshaw

    Now I'm not saying he's half ******** or anything.. but listen to the guy on the Fox pregame show. Unless it's all an act, he really can't be that intelligent.

    It's impossible to truely tell who is the best "of all time" because of how different each generation of football is. This is a much more pass oriented generation of football. Pretty soon 40,000 yards won't be what it used to mean. Similar to 500 home runs, while being an incredible number, just doesn't put you in the hall of fame in baseball anymore. Manning easily has 5+ years left in him if he wants to play that long and could eclipse the 70,000 mark that Favre is at, or close to it. Marino being at 60,000 is more impressive than Favre being at 70,000 because he played in a running NFL. Now you get the PI for the littlest touch of a receiver, whereas in Marino's earlier days it was much less strict.

    Manning is the best I've ever seen. I only caught the tail end of Montana, Marino, Moon, Kelly and Elway. Saw most of Favre, Young, and Aikmen's careers. From 1994ish(too young to really remember before that) until now Manning is the best without a doubt. To me he is the most impressive and most fun to watch just because of the way he commands the entire field. He's like a hybrid of the first 5 mentioned above. Elway is probably the closest to Manning that played in the time period but he was only around for about the first 4 seasons or so.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by delfinko View Post
    2 words. Terry Bradshaw

    Now I'm not saying he's half ******** or anything.. but listen to the guy on the Fox pregame show. Unless it's all an act, he really can't be that intelligent.

    It's impossible to truely tell who is the best "of all time" because of how different each generation of football is. This is a much more pass oriented generation of football. Pretty soon 40,000 yards won't be what it used to mean. Similar to 500 home runs, while being an incredible number, just doesn't put you in the hall of fame in baseball anymore. Manning easily has 5+ years left in him if he wants to play that long and could eclipse the 70,000 mark that Favre is at, or close to it. Marino being at 60,000 is more impressive than Favre being at 70,000 because he played in a running NFL. Now you get the PI for the littlest touch of a receiver, whereas in Marino's earlier days it was much less strict.

    Manning is the best I've ever seen. I only caught the tail end of Montana, Marino, Moon, Kelly and Elway. Saw most of Favre, Young, and Aikmen's careers. From 1994ish(too young to really remember before that) until now Manning is the best without a doubt. To me he is the most impressive and most fun to watch just because of the way he commands the entire field. He's like a hybrid of the first 5 mentioned above. Elway is probably the closest to Manning that played in the time period but he was only around for about the first 4 seasons or so.
    This is the most intelligent post of the thread by far. The NFL records don't tell us much when comparing to the earlier generations. A 16 game season compared to 14 or 12 game seasons in the past....forget about records since only the more recent players got to play all these extra games. You also cannot ignore all the rule changes of the NFL...guys like Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, and Terry Bradshaw were much tougher than the average QB of today. There were no late hit penalties, they protect the WRs now, you can't take a cheap hit on them anymore, helmet to helmet hits used to be common and legal, the list goes on and on. The great ones were team leaders, that was true back then and it's still true today. Peyton is definitely one of the great ones, probably the best of his generation.

  7. #52
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    14 of the top 16 QB rating guys of all time are still active!!! (and 22 of the top 29). Maybe you guys ought to look at guys in their time. It's like taking juice numbers against dead ball guys. It's a joke.

    Young - 6 out of 7 QB rating's #1's - in a row, highest ranking guy that played before the rule changes #2 all time behind the immortal Aaron Rodgers.

    How about Montana - 2 QB rating #1's (8th all time - behind Romo!)) , and 4 SB titles w/ almost perfect games

    Old timers? Otto Graham - 7 Championships in 10 years, with 4 QB rating #1's also (17th all time - behind Ben, Schaub, Garcia, Favre, McNabb - please!).

    If Manning wins the SB, he might well be the man of this time, but, his games in Foxboro in Jan '04 and Jan '05 are so bad, he was so unhinged, and hysterical - at his prime ages - 28 and 29. Remember those before you pencil this guy in at #1.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  8. #53
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    I'm really lost in why credit is taken away from Tom Moore and given to Manning. Quarterbacks play under their offensive coordinator's system. It's the coach's system. It's irritating when people say "Manning is his own system! He makes these players good!" You can't really say that when he's had one offensive coordinator his entire career. I find it extremely impressive when quarterbacks have success with multiple offensive coordinators. Manning has only had one throughout his entire career. This doesn't take away credibility from him. I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying that this fact defeats the argument "He made these players into future Hall of Famers, so he's the best ever." He did no such thing. Tom Moore did. And it also helps that all these future Hall of Famers were first round draft picks. Marvin Harrison, Tarik Glenn, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edgerrin James. Joseph Addai and Donald Brown were each first rounders. I posted this fact in another post, but of the past 15 NFL drafts, the Colts have used 12 of their first overall picks on offensive players. Polian makes it a point to surround Manning with top talent.

    He is by far the smartest quarterback I have ever seen. But again, after 11 years of the same thing, I'd know my coach's offensive system inside out as well. As opposed to, say, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Drew Brees, who have all experienced continued success while changing players and coaches.

    And why do most of you Peyton suckers think it's so amazing that he's given 3 plays and chooses one of them at the line of scrimmage? I'm in no way advocating Roethlisberger to be considered the greatest ever, I'm just using him as an example because he's the QB I know the most about. When the Steelers are in the no huddle, every single play call is all him. Minimal to no communication between him and the offensive coordinator. Ben calls the plays, and for those of you who don't pay attention, the only time it seems like they actually move the ball is in the final 2 minutes, when all the play calling is Roethlisberger. Why is Manning so great, choosing from 3 plays to move the ball, but Roethlisberger not, having to choose from the entire playbook to move the ball? Again, I'm not bringing Roethlisberger up to "greatest ever" discussion. I'm just bringing Manning down to earth.

    Then there's the playoff disasters. The 2006 postseason when he finally won the Super Bowl he had 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. And that was when he won. That sort of speaks for itself.

    In conclusion, it's a push for me to put Manning in the top 10. Unitas, Graham, Baugh, even Namath, they all played in times when they weren't given a free 15 yards every time a defender tickled them. Montana just won championships, plain and simple, and Marino had absolutely nothing surrounding him, yet still put up numbers that every quarterback aspires to. Manning is now playing in an era where rules are changed annually to give more opportunities for big, highlight-reel pass plays that happen to pad quarterback stats, he's only won one championship, he has a plethora of talent surrounding him, and there are quarterbacks currently playing who put up better statistics than he does. Drew Brees and Philip Rivers come to mind. He's good, top 15, could and probably will make a strong run for the top 10 by the time his career is over, but at the moment, and probably for all time, I just can't put him up there with the greats. That's just me.

  9. #54
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    I agree with Bagwell about comparing much older qbs with modern ones. It is like comparing apples to oranges. That being said I think Peyton is the best modern qb.

    I just don't understand the arguement against Peyton. He has all the individual awards/stats along with possibly his second Super Bowl. He (like many others on this list) turned around a horrible team at the beginning of his career.

    I am done with my rant condemn and critique all you want.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ring91013144043 View Post
    I'm really lost in why credit is taken away from Tom Moore and given to Manning. Quarterbacks play under their offensive coordinator's system. It's the coach's system. It's irritating when people say "Manning is his own system! He makes these players good!" You can't really say that when he's had one offensive coordinator his entire career. I find it extremely impressive when quarterbacks have success with multiple offensive coordinators. Manning has only had one throughout his entire career. This doesn't take away credibility from him. I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying that this fact defeats the argument "He made these players into future Hall of Famers, so he's the best ever." He did no such thing. Tom Moore did. And it also helps that all these future Hall of Famers were first round draft picks. Marvin Harrison, Tarik Glenn, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edgerrin James. Joseph Addai and Donald Brown were each first rounders. I posted this fact in another post, but of the past 15 NFL drafts, the Colts have used 12 of their first overall picks on offensive players. Polian makes it a point to surround Manning with top talent.

    He is by far the smartest quarterback I have ever seen. But again, after 11 years of the same thing, I'd know my coach's offensive system inside out as well. As opposed to, say, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Drew Brees, who have all experienced continued success while changing players and coaches.

    And why do most of you Peyton suckers think it's so amazing that he's given 3 plays and chooses one of them at the line of scrimmage? I'm in no way advocating Roethlisberger to be considered the greatest ever, I'm just using him as an example because he's the QB I know the most about. When the Steelers are in the no huddle, every single play call is all him. Minimal to no communication between him and the offensive coordinator. Ben calls the plays, and for those of you who don't pay attention, the only time it seems like they actually move the ball is in the final 2 minutes, when all the play calling is Roethlisberger. Why is Manning so great, choosing from 3 plays to move the ball, but Roethlisberger not, having to choose from the entire playbook to move the ball? Again, I'm not bringing Roethlisberger up to "greatest ever" discussion. I'm just bringing Manning down to earth.

    Then there's the playoff disasters. The 2006 postseason when he finally won the Super Bowl he had 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. And that was when he won. That sort of speaks for itself.

    In conclusion, it's a push for me to put Manning in the top 10. Unitas, Graham, Baugh, even Namath, they all played in times when they weren't given a free 15 yards every time a defender tickled them. Montana just won championships, plain and simple, and Marino had absolutely nothing surrounding him, yet still put up numbers that every quarterback aspires to. Manning is now playing in an era where rules are changed annually to give more opportunities for big, highlight-reel pass plays that happen to pad quarterback stats, he's only won one championship, he has a plethora of talent surrounding him, and there are quarterbacks currently playing who put up better statistics than he does. Drew Brees and Philip Rivers come to mind. He's good, top 15, could and probably will make a strong run for the top 10 by the time his career is over, but at the moment, and probably for all time, I just can't put him up there with the greats. That's just me.
    its not just tom moore, that is ridiculous.
    its peyton manning who is making the throws, reading the defenses, calling the audibles, etc etc.
    he has been so successful with the colts that they dont want manning to change teams and there is no need to change coordinators either.

    the 3 play thing is an amazing attribute to manning, b/c pretty much everyone else has just one play, and rarely audibles from there.
    peyton consistently reads the defense and picks the right plays.
    then he goes on to execute the plays better than anyone else. ever.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cambovenzi View Post
    its not just tom moore, that is ridiculous.
    its peyton manning who is making the throws, reading the defenses, calling the audibles, etc etc.
    he has been so successful with the colts that they dont want manning to change teams and there is no need to change coordinators either.

    the 3 play thing is an amazing attribute to manning, b/c pretty much everyone else has just one play, and rarely audibles from there.
    peyton consistently reads the defense and picks the right plays.
    then he goes on to execute the plays better than anyone else. ever.
    Because Manning just magically learned how to do all those things, right? I mean, it's not like he had a mentor . . . or a coach . . . or an offensive coordinator . . . who taught him how to be able to read defenses or call audibles in the NFL. No, you're probably right. It's all Manning and he deserves all the credit. None should be given to Moore. He'd probably have the same amount of success if Moore had never existed. Or maybe if Tom Moore had not returned for this year no matter how much Manning whined and *****ed during the offseason about what was happening with the potential coaching shakeup. Or maybe you just made an unintelligent statement which I discredited in the original post which you quoted. A point was made, I made a counterpoint challenging the first point, and you just repeated the same original point which I had already countered. You may want to rethink your discussion techniques.

    I like how you said "no need to change offensive coordinator." As if teams change offensive coordinators only because they "need" to find a new guy for an ineffective coach they fired, not because the offensive coordinator gets a head coaching job somewhere else (Ken Whisenhunt from Pittsburgh to Arizona, Josh McDaniels from New England to Denver, Todd Haley from Arizona to Kansas City, Mike Shanahan from LA Rams to Denver . . .)

    And again, I didn't say the 3 plays thing takes away from Manning. I asked why he gets credit for doing that, but a lesser name like Roethlisberger doesn't get credit for what he does. But you can interpret my spanky clear statements any way you like, regardless of their obvious true meaning. I guess.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    14 of the top 16 QB rating guys of all time are still active!!! (and 22 of the top 29). Maybe you guys ought to look at guys in their time. It's like taking juice numbers against dead ball guys. It's a joke.

    Young - 6 out of 7 QB rating's #1's - in a row, highest ranking guy that played before the rule changes #2 all time behind the immortal Aaron Rodgers.

    How about Montana - 2 QB rating #1's (8th all time - behind Romo!)) , and 4 SB titles w/ almost perfect games

    Old timers? Otto Graham - 7 Championships in 10 years, with 4 QB rating #1's also (17th all time - behind Ben, Schaub, Garcia, Favre, McNabb - please!).

    If Manning wins the SB, he might well be the man of this time, but, his games in Foxboro in Jan '04 and Jan '05 are so bad, he was so unhinged, and hysterical - at his prime ages - 28 and 29. Remember those before you pencil this guy in at #1.
    I'll go a step further. I even think it's extremely difficult to compare QBs from the same or similar eras. It's much more difficult to make comparisons in the NFL than it is in the NBA or MLB. Besides the rules and stylistic changes, look at how much influence coaches have. Then you have to account for pass-protection, the playmaking abilities of the WR/TE/RB positions, and even the defensive abilities of a QB's team (i.e. does the QB have to throw a lot to win games because of a weak defense?).

    You can see all the debate about the effect of Tom Moore on Peyton Manning's career. But, what about Walsh for Montana (and Young)? Montana was amazing, but he wasn't as talented physcially/athletically as guys like Manning, Favre, Marino and Elway. He could have still been very good in a different situation, but I don't know of too many other coaches at that time that could have maximized his abilities and matched his skill set so perfectly to an offensive system. If Elway doesn't get to play the last portion of his career with Shanahan as his head coach, it's very likely that he doesn't win a Super Bowl in his career. Aikman played on a run-heavy/play action passing team. He was a HOF talent, but didn't post gaudy numbers because he didn't have to for the Cowboys to win games. What if they won those championships with a more passer-friendly system? Maybe he's a top 5 guy then.

  13. #58
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    If you compare to rings then right now brady is the best QB if you want to compare numbers then payton is the best. Top and bottom line brady does not have manning numbers but he has the rings

  14. #59
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    either Montanna or Manning case close.


    Introducing the Eagles O-Line

  15. #60
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    [QUOTE=LegendX;12108907]Without a Defense?

    New York Jets Rushing Rank: 1st, 172.2 per game
    vs the Colts: 86 yards.

    Baltimore Ravens Rushing Rank: 5th, 137.5
    vs the Colts: 80 yards.

    They were the 4th best team in the post season against the run and they went up against 2 of the top 5, both of which tried their hearts out to get the run going.

    Defensive Rankings, Regular Season.

    PTS: 19.2 (8th) -- At one point was 1st overall for a few weeks.
    YDS: 339.2 (18th)
    PASS YDS: 212.7 (14th) -- At one point was 1st overall for a few weeks before being hit by injuries.
    RUSH YDS: 126.5 (24th) -- Not as bad as it appears, ask most Colts fans.


    Peyton is by no means the best QB ever, he has a long way to go. And if you want to talk smart QBs, I'll direct you to Montana, Elways, Young and most certainly Marino.[/QUOTE]

    hey look everybody its a biased dolphin fan
    GOTTA BELIEVE!

    ELI MANNING IS ELITE !

    Ruben Tejada = The Machine!

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