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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravefan29 View Post
    LMAO at this thread...

    I am a Braves fan(clearly) and in no way is Huddy better than Halladay(not by a long shot) but sorry phillies fans 1-5 the Braves rotation is the better rotation. J.J is going to have a great season and as far as Happ preforming better than Hanson...right and how many games did Happ play: 35
    Hanson: 21

    so before outlandish statements are made maybe we should see a full year of both then compare.

    1. Halladay is better than Hudson
    2. Jair is better than Hammels
    3. Lowe is better than Blanton

    4. Hanson would have been far better than Happ if you project 35 games so Hanson gets the nodd here.
    5. Kawakami is better than Moyer by a long shot.

    Final Score: Braves 4 Phils 1.

    Now the offense well that a whole nother story......
    Lmao at both of them. People are underrating Blanton by alot and overrating lowe... Also Hamels is better then Jair... Please just stop. Also Moyer will not be our 5th starter... we have a lot of pitching depth in Bastardo/Kendrick that will probably out due Moyer in spring training. Yes Kawa is better then moyer but he is not that good at being a number 5 pitcher.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    I didn't bother comparing "Kawakamy" to Moyer because the fifth spot is pretty weak for both sides. Hamels is still better than Jurrjens so the point still stands that the Phils > Braves rotation.
    2009
    kawa 3.86 ERA in 156.1 IP
    moyer 4.94 ERA in 162 IP

    ERA isnt the best comparitive tool but in this case its clear that Kawakami is better... hes younger and in any other rotation he would be way more then a #5 starter..

    Hamels and Jurrjens are pretty equal IMO... if anything you would give the edge JJ because he is coming off a monster season and the guy just keeps improving.

    All in all, its an easy pick. The Braves have the better rotation when you compare 1-5.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Then-Most View Post
    Lmao at both of them. People are underrating Blanton by alot and overrating lowe... Also Hamels is better then Jair... Please just stop. Also Moyer will not be our 5th starter... we have a lot of pitching depth in Bastardo/Kendrick that will probably out due Moyer in spring training. Yes Kawa is better then moyer but he is not that good at being a number 5 pitcher.
    why?

    and please do not try to argue that Blaton is better then Lowe...
    Last edited by jmtapia; 12-27-2009 at 04:09 AM.

  4. #64
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    The way CC/Cliff Lee dominated in the AL, its going to be on another level with Halladay. The guy is the best in the game. He's going to run through those lineups. If Hammels can do anything, the Phils have the best rotation.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquest8089 View Post
    The way CC/Cliff Lee dominated in the AL, its going to be on another level with Halladay. The guy is the best in the game. He's going to run through those lineups. If Hammels can do anything, the Phils have the best rotation.
    ... Hammels has to be a beast for the Phills to have a shot at having a better rotation... Braves are just to deep...

  6. 12-27-2009, 04:39 AM
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  7. 12-27-2009, 04:43 AM
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    baiting/insults/quoting the former

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Then-Most View Post
    Lmao at both of them. People are underrating Blanton by alot and overrating lowe... Also Hamels is better then Jair... Please just stop. Also Moyer will not be our 5th starter... we have a lot of pitching depth in Bastardo/Kendrick that will probably out due Moyer in spring training. Yes Kawa is better then moyer but he is not that good at being a number 5 pitcher.
    Stop?

    Lowe is by far better than Blanton, 2009 a season that Braves Fans wanted Lowe out he pitched better then any of Blantons seasons ever, so no do your research, and as far as Jair if he pitched for a team with an offense he would have had more than 20 wins( guess we will see this year) Hamels barely had what 10 wins with an era of 4.32 and thats with your monster offense, yea your argument has bearing there.

    Keep in mind the Phillies do not have to be the best at everything......

    Jair: W/14 L/10 ERA: 2.60 IP/211
    Cole: W/10 L/11 ERA: 4.32 IP/193.2 you are actually trying to argue a point here....you can just stop.
    Last edited by Bravefan29; 12-27-2009 at 05:27 AM.

  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravefan29 View Post
    Stop?

    Lowe is by far better than Blanton, 2009 a season that Braves Fans wanted Lowe out he pitched better then any of Blantons seasons ever, so no do your research, and as far as Jair if he pitched for a team with an offense he would have had more than 20 wins( guess we will see this year) Hamels barely had what 10 wins with an era of 4.32 and thats with your monster offense, yea your argument has bearing there.

    Keep in mind the Phillies do not have to be the best at everything......

    Jair: W/14 L/10 ERA: 2.60 IP/211
    Cole: W/10 L/11 ERA: 4.32 IP/193.2 you are actually trying to argue a point here....you can just stop.

    I could be wrong and very well might be but didn't Blanton pitch better then lowe last year????? That being said Lowe also pitched in one of the best pitching parks in the majors where Blanton pitched in one of the worst. My Point on Hamels is that he had a down year and Jair had a good year so yes you can say what you want about that but the fact is that when Hamels is on he is by far more dominate then Jair. Braves fans want their rotation to be the best so bad and it was... But you GM made a dumbass trade that killed you rotation.

    Will take

    Halladay
    Hamels
    Blanton
    Happ over your top 4 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Then-Most View Post
    I could be wrong and very well might be but didn't Blanton pitch better then lowe last year????? That being said Lowe also pitched in one of the best pitching parks in the majors where Blanton pitched in one of the worst. My Point on Hamels is that he had a down year and Jair had a good year so yes you can say what you want about that but the fact is that when Hamels is on he is by far more dominate then Jair. Braves fans want their rotation to be the best so bad and it was... But you GM made a dumbass trade that killed you rotation.

    Will take

    Halladay
    Hamels
    Blanton
    Happ over your top 4 any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    look I grew up in Philly and I know how the fans are, I am not going to win this argument and I do not need to, I also do not need to resort to stupid comments to get my point across.
    Blanton:W/12 L/8 ERA/4.05 and gave up 30 bombs
    Lowe: W/15 L/10 ERA/4.62and gave up 16 bombs

    So Lowe had 3 more wins and gave up 14 fewer homers, so yes he got the braves more wins, and historically I would take Lowe any day of the week over Blanton.

    Phillies fans do not get it, even with Cole Hamels you had to go get a cy young pitcher to compete(lee), now you had to get another (halladay), just because you have 1 stud pitcher it does not give you the best rotation.
    If the Braves offense was like the Phils offense..well you get the picture.
    I am a baseball fan as well as a Braves fan, if the Phillies had a better rotation than the Braves I would say it but thats just not the case. You are entilted to your opinion but it really has no basis.

  11. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravefan29 View Post
    look I grew up in Philly and I know how the fans are, I am not going to win this argument and I do not need to, I also do not need to resort to stupid comments to get my point across.
    Blanton:W/12 L/8 ERA/4.05 and gave up 30 bombs
    Lowe: W/15 L/10 ERA/4.62and gave up 16 bombs

    So Lowe had 3 more wins and gave up 14 fewer homers, so yes he got the braves more wins, and historically I would take Lowe any day of the week over Blanton.

    Phillies fans do not get it, even with Cole Hamels you had to go get a cy young pitcher to compete(lee), now you had to get another (halladay), just because you have 1 stud pitcher it does not give you the best rotation.
    If the Braves offense was like the Phils offense..well you get the picture.
    I am a baseball fan as well as a Braves fan, if the Phillies had a better rotation than the Braves I would say it but thats just not the case. You are entilted to your opinion but it really has no basis.


    Dude wow. Really. Wins and losses? and fewer home runs is what you are going by? Are you kidding me? Wow what a joke you are. I am not even going to get into all that because you just proved my point for me by posting what you posted. Also the Phillies having a better rotation then the braves is not just because they got Halladay... Its also because YOU TRADED AWAY YOUR BEST PITCHER FOR VERY LITTLE.

    Lmao... Wow wins and losses.

  12. 12-27-2009, 07:44 AM
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  13. 12-27-2009, 08:40 AM
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  14. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtapia View Post
    2009
    kawa 3.86 ERA in 156.1 IP
    moyer 4.94 ERA in 162 IP

    ERA isnt the best comparitive tool
    Agreed.

    but in this case its clear that Kawakami is better...
    Stop right there. You just said:

    ERA isnt the best comparitive tool
    So if it's not the best comparative tool, you shouldn't use it to compare people!

    hes younger and in any other rotation he would be way more then a #5 starter..
    If he's more than a #5 starter in any other rotation than that team isn't making the playoffs.

    Hamels and Jurrjens are pretty equal IMO... if anything you would give the edge JJ because he is coming off a monster season and the guy just keeps improving.
    They're a lot closer than I thought this year. Going forward I'd say Hamels has a better shot at being successful because Jurrjens walks too many batters and doesn't strike out enough to make up for it.

    All in all, its an easy pick. The Braves have the better rotation when you compare 1-5.
    I compared it and I agree, it was an easy pick. Except it was in favour of the Phils.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  15. #71
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    The Braves have a slightly better rotation than the Phillies, but their offense is just a monster. Therefore, the Phillies still have a much better team.

  16. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by yankswin27 View Post
    The Braves have a slightly better rotation than the Phillies, but their offense is just a monster. Therefore, the Phillies still have a much better team.
    Add in the fact they've been in back-to-back WS.

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  17. #73
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    Originally Posted by Twitchy
    I didn't bother comparing "Kawakamy" to Moyer because the fifth spot is pretty weak for both sides.

    What? Kawakami is not weak. Man up and say you didn't compare the 5th spots because the Braves' is much better and you didn't feel like it.

    As for Hudson/Halladay debate, it's hard to argue that Hudson is better right now because of how the last few years have gone. As a career though they are quite close. Hudson dominated the AL for 6 years but has simply been very good since coming to the senior circuit. They're relatively close in age (Hudson is 2 years older) and they've both pitched nearly the same amount of innings with Hudson becoming a regular about 2 years earlier in age than Halladay. Their ERAs are pretty close as well, but playing the last 5 years in the AL East is certainly more difficult than the last 5 in the NL East (though not by as much as some people want to believe).

    Using FIP and tRA to judge a career is stupid. Those statistics are made for gauging future results, and the argument against ERA is that its too dependent upon other factors that cause inaccurate fluctuations. We're talking about over 2000 innings of work here though - the sample size means the fluctuations are primarily borne out.

    The worst thing coming out of sabremetrics has been novice fans' idea that it means ERA is useless. ERA gauges exactly what it claims to: the average number of earned runs a pitcher gives up in 9 innings. Since the game is about runs and outs at its most basic level, ERA is very effective for comparing what pitchers have done (but not what they will do, which is why FIP and tRA are helpful).

  18. #74
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    1) Phillies
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  19. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    His K:BB is an awful 1.84. He's not a particularly strong GB pitcher who pitches to contact and walks too many hitters and doesn't have great velocity. That's not a recipe for success. He didn't even throw 200 innings last year. He averaged 5 2/3 innings pitched per start (I excluded games where he was a RP). That's not good by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, that's not even good enough to get you quality starts. He's a glorified (and overpaid) long reliever at this point.
    At this point? What does that mean? He was a quality starter in Japan and became a quality starter in the majors last year. Like most Japanese starters (Dice-K, etc.), he's more prone to nibbling which resulted in walks. His ERA after the All-Star break dropped by almost a run, and he's never been a strikeout pitcher.

    I'm not saying he's going to turn into an ace, but he had a good year for a 5th starter and I think he needs a little bit more time in the majors before you can declare him a "glorified long reliever" - especially given his track record of immense success in Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    So no, I didn't mention him because I felt he was much better. I didn't mention him because I think he's a below average 'starting pitcher' who can't even go the distance in games, either because his manager doesn't have faith in him or he's not talented enough to go the distance. And by distance, I mean 6 innings.
    He's a 5th starter who gave his team 150 innings of work, even with losing his job in the final month of the season. If Hudson hadn't come back he probably would have pitched 165-170 innings. How is that not good for a 5th starter? You don't get or expect 200 innings from a 5th starter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Hudson was awful in 05/06 due to below average K:BB (1.77 & 1.78 respectively) and solid in 07 before throwing a combined 184 innings between 08-09. His only good year in the NL was 2007.
    What? In 2005 he posted a 3.52 ERA. Even if much of that is luck (kind of like Hamels's 2008) it's still a good year. He's pitched 4 years in the NL and had 3 good years in them, 2 of those years with good peripherals. In 2008 he posted a 3.17. I'm sure you'll say "HIS FIP WAS 3.83 OMG HORRIBLE" - but like I said, novice fans misuse these stats. FIP notoriously underrates groundball pitchers (so does tRA).

    You can say you prefer strikeout pitchers if you want, but you can't argue with over 2000 innings of results. (And saying that he's had excellent defenses just shows you don't know much about the teams he played for.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Those stats are used to show how a pitcher pitched based on the things they can control - in the case of FIP, K, BB & HR. While they can't directly control HR's, they have a direct control of K:BB. tra takes other stuff into account as well.

    The point is, if Halladay is striking out more guys, walking less, and keeping the ball on the ground more, than he's giving his team a better shot to win. It's as simple as that.
    No, if he's allowing less runs and pitching more innings he's giving his team a better shot to win. Their IP are very close as well as their ERA. Quality opponent plays a role, which is why I'm not trying to argue Hudson is on Halladay's level. But as a career, Hudson's ERA+ is 126 while Halladay's is 133. That probably bares out the competition problems somewhat and it doesn't penalize Hudson for not being a strikeout pitcher.

    Like I said, their careers as a whole are a lot closer than people would think lately (mainly because baseball fans are fickle and have no long-term memories).
    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Yes, ERA is a "pretty stat" that tells us how many runs were given up. However, when we're comparing two pitchers we're less concerned with how many runs they've given up and more concerned with who gave their team a better chance to win. Three most important things a pitcher can do is keep the ball on the ground, strike guys out, and not walk batters. Halladay does all 3 significantly better than Hudson.

    But I mean, if you want to go ahead and argue that Kamikami is a good pitcher and that Hudson and Halladay are similar than go right ahead.
    There are other things to pitching besides walks, groundball %, and strikeouts. That's why even the people who invented these statistics won't endorse them the way you do. There are pop-up percentages, situational pitching, line-drive percentages, home runs allowed, pick-off moves, defense, and a litany of other things. ERA is good because it gives us a baseline for comparison - it tells us what actually happened while we use FIP, tRA, GB/FB, WARP3, SNLVAR, etc. to tell us why or how it happened.

    But I mean, if you want to go ahead and argue that Kamikami sic is a long reliever, that Hudson is no where near Halladay's level, and that the most fundamental statistic in baseball is worthless then go ahead.

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