Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 44 of 44
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    13,768
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ko8e24 View Post
    I know we've had the PSD voting for Top 10 Players of all time, but I just watched this video after 3 months, and it got me really thinking.

    Look, I'm not saying anything about Kobe Bryant being better than MJ, or Lebron, or Wade, or blah blah blah, and I'm not being a Kobe homer, but we really must ask where he ranks with his recent 4th Title and 1st Finals MVP. It's a legit question (no homerism), I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT EVERYONE THINKS, that includes Kobe supporters, but mainly, Kobe non-supporters, as well as the objective NBA Fan.

    I have posted a video, where Kenny the Jet, Sir Charles, Ahmad Rashad discuss where Kobe is ranked among the all-time greats.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQkYxfenDHA

    Kenny the Jet mentions that his former teammate that he won 2 titles with, Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon, is not top 10 because he was not "as dominant as Kobe". That's a pretty bold statement by a guy who won titles with The Dream. He actually played with the dude.


    So what I would like is truly where you think he ranks among the all-time greats. I want SOLID ARGUMENTS, no baiting, no bashing, and if you really feel you don't have anything significant to contribute, then don't post on this thread at all. Everyone's opinions (non-insulting, non-baiting) MATTER!


    Kobe's Career:

    4 Titles in 6 Finals Appearances
    1 Finals MVP
    1 League MVP
    3 All-Star Game MVPs
    1 Olympic Gold Medal
    1 Slam Dunk Title
    2 Scoring Titles


    My Ranks of Top 10:

    1. Michael Jordan
    2. Magic Johnson
    3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
    4. Bill Russell
    5. Larry Bird
    6. Wilt Chamberlain
    7. Shaquille O'Neal
    8. Jerry West
    9. Tim Duncan
    10. Kobe Bryant

    ----------
    11. Hakeem Olajuwon
    12. Elgin Baylor



    You DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME, but what I ask of is legit arguments.


    Thank you for your time.
    Based on accomplishments, talent, etc.. I have Kobe ranked in top 10. He's a top 5 talent of all time, without question. If he wins a few more titles and finals mvps, he will be ranked in the top 5 for sure.

    Top ten players of all time

    1. Jordan
    2. Magic
    3. Kareem
    4. Wilt
    5. Shaq
    6. B. Russell
    7. L. Bird
    8. H. Olajuwon
    9. T. Duncan
    10a. Kobe/10.b Oscar
    Last edited by Lakersfan2483; 09-26-2009 at 04:35 PM.
    http://i44.tinypic.com/nl7ngy.jpg

    Bring Back the Zen Master.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    13,768
    vCash
    1500
    Winning a title as the unquestioned best player on his team and winning a finals mvp was huge for Kobe this past season.
    Last edited by Lakersfan2483; 09-26-2009 at 04:37 PM.
    http://i44.tinypic.com/nl7ngy.jpg

    Bring Back the Zen Master.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    7,838
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ARMIN12NBA View Post
    How do you know this? Do you have a crystal ball into the future?



    How about all the important awards like MVP, Finals MVP, All-NBA, All-NBA Defense, etc.?



    The usage of the word terrible is extremely and undeniably hyperbolic. Not to mention it is historically inaccurate.

    The average FG% for an SG is around 42%. This essentially means that the average guard will hit that percentage.

    Bryant shoots well above this percentage at about a 46-47% clip (he has hit 47% multiple times when rounded off).

    The usage of the word terrible is simply hyperbole and inaccurate. Bryant's FG% and eFG% is actually fantastic.




    McGrady is a forward, I would hope his rebounding numbers are better than Bryant's.

    In fact (accuracy), Bryant has been the leading rebounder for shooting guards for a while now. It is extremely unfair to compare Bryant to players of different positions (forwards or centers) and players who played in different eras (faster pace, more possessions in earlier era).

    Look at the league Bryant plays in. Kobe Bryant is the leading rebounder for shooting guards in the league.

    In terms of assists, Bryant plays in the TPO (Triple Post Offense) and plays the position of SHOOTING guard. His job isn't to distribute as much as other players. Yet, he is still one of the top assist man among shooting guards and averages a fine clip at 5. Dishing out 5 assists is actually quite great and his pure passing fundamentals are fantastic. Passing is more important than assists because assists are simply passes that led to immediate shots. How about a pass that was made to a man that opened up the floor for another open man? There are many fantastic passes in the game of basketball that aren't awarded assists. Yet, Bryant still averages a fine clip and is a very good passer.



    How is that a weakness? Wouldn't that mean most players are weak in the playoffs? If I am not mistaken, MJ was the greatest playoff performer ever. Comparing everybody to him would make a lot of guys look weaker...Yet people don't do that. They use the double standards and only compare Kobe to Jordan.

    Look at Bryant as his own player. He has been fantastic in the playoffs throughout his career. He has also had low-points, but ever player has had them (even your fave man ).



    Every player has those examples. Every singly star players have their peak year while their other years are not nearly as good.

    In fact, Bryant has been revered for his amazing consistency. Since 2000, Kobe has been one of the most consistent players in the league. Every year he provides at least 25/5/5 with good defense. IMO, that is pure consistency. Of course, he will have his peak years and he will have years where he played very well, but not as good as his peak.

    Every single top notch player has an example of that buddy.



    He doesn't have to score 30 PPG to elevate his status among the all time greats. In fact, it seems as if basketball fans and analysts alike believe that Bryant is at his best when he scores less and incorporates teammates more which he has been doing for a couple years. Kobe is getting older, but is not too old. His best years are definitely over, but I don't see that as a weakness against his career. Every single player declines. Bryant can still be the best on his team and a top 3-5 player for a few more years and win a couple championships, which will elevate him to the top 5-10.



    Sure. Although many analysts believe Kobe is already Top 10 (Miller, Smith, Worthy, etc.) so your argument is almost moot. IMO, Bryant is top 12 and I believe he can move as high as 2 depending on how the rest of his career plays out.
    Awesome counterarguments, and you kept your cool and composure throughout all of it.

    GAME, SET, MATCH!

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    49,788
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ARMIN12NBA View Post
    Well, I personally think Shaq is higher up than Kobe right now. Like I said, if Kobe were to accomplish those feats during the rest of his career, then he would pass those guys IMO. It is just a question of whether or not he can accomplish those feats, which are hard to do.

    When comparing Shaq and Kobe all time, Shaq gets the nod right now. The thing is, if Kobe were to accomplish even 1 more NBA Championship/NBA Finals MVP/All-NBA Team/All-Defense Team, then I think he should be above Shaq. For one, Shaq has never been a leader. The reason being is that he was the one who was always out of shape and was nonchalant and needed the guidance of a leader. His overall attitude towards the game was pretty bad. Also, Shaq's skills as a pure basketball player were nothing better than average. A lot of old-timers (people I know who have watched the game since its infancy) always explain how unskilled Shaq is compared to all the other bigs in history. He took advantage of his body, which he very well should have, but even then he underachieved according to many (remember he went to a team that was already a 50+ win team that was very talented in 1996 and couldn't even win a championship or go to the Finals for another 4 years?).

    The Top 10 is splitting hairs essentially so if Kobe were to accomplish a bit more, I truly believe that Bryant's hard work ethic and great skill would definitely set him above Shaq. It is not like Kobe doesn't have the dominance and accomplishments himself either.
    Good posts. You almost have me convinced. Seriously though, you make a well reasoned argument.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    165
    vCash
    1500
    QUOTE ARMIN12NBA

    How do you know this? Do you have a crystal ball into the future?

    Why would a need a crystall ball? Kobe has already made his career and he's is not going to get any better suddenly...


    How about all the important awards like MVP, Finals MVP, All-NBA, All-NBA Defense, etc.?

    What about these awards?
    MVP: once
    MVP Finals: once
    all nba team: 10 times (7x 1st team)
    all defensive: 9 times (7x 1st team)

    Except for the 9 selections for the all defensive team, that's not so exceptional...


    The usage of the word terrible is extremely and undeniably hyperbolic. Not to mention it is historically inaccurate.

    The average FG% for an SG is around 42%. This essentially means that the average guard will hit that percentage.

    Bryant shoots well above this percentage at about a 46-47% clip (he has hit 47% multiple times when rounded off).

    The usage of the word terrible is simply hyperbole and inaccurate. Bryant's FG% and eFG% is actually fantastic.

    The average FG% for an average SG is around 42% maybe, but for a top10 player of all time 46% just won't do.

    And 46%fg surely is NOT fantastic. The usage of the word fantastic is extremely and undeniably hyperbolic. Not to mention it is historically inaccurate.



    McGrady is a forward, I would hope his rebounding numbers are better than Bryant's.

    McGrady is a guard who sometimes plays at forward


    In fact (accuracy), Bryant has been the leading rebounder for shooting guards for a while now. It is extremely unfair to compare Bryant to players of different positions (forwards or centers) and players who played in different eras (faster pace, more possessions in earlier era).

    I didn't compare Bryant with players at other positions. I also never said Bryant is a bad rebounder, just a mediocre one. Comparing him with players of other eras for his rebounding skills is hardly unfair.

    Look at the league Bryant plays in. Kobe Bryant is the leading rebounder for shooting guards in the league.

    That is incorrect. It's Mike Miller, followed by André Iguadola.


    In terms of assists, Bryant plays in the TPO (Triple Post Offense) and plays the position of SHOOTING guard.

    You take words to litterally (kidding). Kobe should be making a better shooting selection to raise his %fg. He should take the shots he can make and otherwise pass the ball inside to Bynum or Gasol (and so raise his apg).

    His job isn't to distribute as much as other players.

    True. Bit if he did it anyway...top10 would be getting closer!!

    Yet, he is still one of the top assist man among shooting guards and averages a fine clip at 5.

    True, only 7 do better. Not amazing though...

    Dishing out 5 assists is actually quite great and his pure passing fundamentals are fantastic.

    The usage of the words great and fantastic is extremely and undeniably hyperbolic. Not to mention it is historically inaccurate

    Passing is more important than assists because assists are simply passes that led to immediate shots. How about a pass that was made to a man that opened up the floor for another open man? There are many fantastic passes in the game of basketball that aren't awarded assists.

    Totally agree!

    Yet, Bryant still averages a fine clip and is a very good passer.

    Not true. To me, he should step up way more to compensate for not having a good PG.
    But here again: I never said Kobe was a bad passer. It's just too bad he's not superb in any other category but scoring points... And I think that's necessary to be a top10 of all time.


    How is that a weakness? Wouldn't that mean most players are weak in the playoffs? If I am not mistaken, MJ was the greatest playoff performer ever. Comparing everybody to him would make a lot of guys look weaker...Yet people don't do that. They use the double standards and only compare Kobe to Jordan.

    I told you not to take the word 'weakness' literally. Guys like Reggie Miller and Clyde Drexler also stepped up in the play-offs. And so did thetop10 players of all time in the lists above (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Olajuwon, O'Neal,...) You have to be at your best when it's money time!!

    Look at Bryant as his own player. He has been fantastic in the playoffs throughout his career. He has also had low-points, but ever player has had them (even your fave man ).

    Half true. My favorite man saw his stats dropping because he was getting old, not in the middle of his career.

    By the way: you don't even know who my favorite man is, as he is not a top 10 player of all time (although very close).

    Sure. Although many analysts believe Kobe is already Top 10 (Miller, Smith, Worthy, etc.) so your argument is almost moot. IMO, Bryant is top 12 and I believe he can move as high as 2 depending on how the rest of his career plays out.

    We'll see about that. I don't always agree with analysts, I can think myself. Here's another thing: I honestly think Kobe will break Kareems scoring record (because he can play like 10 more seasons). But even then, I won't change my mind about him being a top10 of all time (although very close).
    Last edited by the avenger; 10-02-2009 at 08:26 AM.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    7,838
    vCash
    1500
    atleast u argued ur case well avenger


    i may not agree with it, but i respect it

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    802
    vCash
    1500
    bump. what about now???!?!!

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,729
    vCash
    1500
    Right now top 10. By the very end he'll be considered top 5. He should be a top 2 scorer of all time by than.
    http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/oscar-taveras
    ~ Oscar Taveras ~ The next Phenom

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,703
    vCash
    1500
    Yes. Definitely in my top ten. And as he continues to play, he only adds to his legacy.

    He is still climbing the all time scoring list as well.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vail, CO
    Posts
    14,807
    vCash
    1500
    1) Jordan
    2) Magic
    3) Kareem
    4) Russell
    5) Bird
    6) Chamberlain
    7) Olajuwon
    8) O'neal
    9) Duncan
    10) Kobe
    “Today, we rip the hearts out of these ****in' haters!!!” - Demeco Ryans pregame speech vs ATL

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY Where else
    Posts
    6,122
    vCash
    1500
    ^^^^ No west or oscar?
    Friend: I think the NBA payed off the Heat in the first yr because of the politics. They threw game four and they payed Lebron because they were angry with what he did. So he had pay one way or another.

    F:There is no one in the draft coming out and trading players isn't going to happen. The Lakers are in trouble.

    F: Vogel doesn't run that team. Shaw does. If he leaves they are going to suck and Vogel will get fired.

    -Heat fan


  12. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vail, CO
    Posts
    14,807
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by BigCityofDreams View Post
    ^^^^ No west or oscar?
    they weren't better than any of those players
    “Today, we rip the hearts out of these ****in' haters!!!” - Demeco Ryans pregame speech vs ATL

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY Where else
    Posts
    6,122
    vCash
    1500
    Based on stats, accomplishments, skill level, etc?
    Friend: I think the NBA payed off the Heat in the first yr because of the politics. They threw game four and they payed Lebron because they were angry with what he did. So he had pay one way or another.

    F:There is no one in the draft coming out and trading players isn't going to happen. The Lakers are in trouble.

    F: Vogel doesn't run that team. Shaw does. If he leaves they are going to suck and Vogel will get fired.

    -Heat fan


  14. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    3,774
    vCash
    1500
    Top 5 easy

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •