Where Does Kobe Bryant TRULY Rank Among the All-Time Greats?

[MTar786]

jordan
magic
kareem
russel (11 rings?? sorry gotta put him there)
hakeem
bird
shaq
kobe
duncan
wilt (im sorry but i really think he was good in a terrible era)

if it was my personal best.. not accomplished then id say

jordan
magic
kobe
shaq
hakeem
kareem
lebron
duncan
wade
bird

[koberulesall]

i put him at number 3 so far

[NPH]

Henry

[ARMIN12NBA]

If Kobe retired today, off the top of my head the guys who rank higher imo are (in no serious order) Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Oscar, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan, Bird, Garnett, and I guess Jerry West. (Although if he actually did retire today, chances are a few current players could pass him - Dirk being one main example.)
If we're discussing championships though, we have to consider guys who don't have titles (or have a limited amount of titles) solely because they were playing in the Jordan era. This to me includes Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and Robinson.

Depending on how the rest of his career plays out (as well as the active players I have listed), I think it's realistic that he'll pass Stockton and Barkley with no problem and probably end out in the mid-teen range.

Garnett? West?

Dirk would end up better than Kobe?

Barkley? Malone? Stockton? Robinson?

[the avenger]

Kobe is no top 10 player ever and he will never be.

First of all, you need to let go all the unimportant awards (MVP all star game, slam dunk champion,...)

Second of all, here's a list with Kobe's "weaknesses" (don't take that litterally) and the reason why he will never be top 10:

1/ terrible, terrible %FG
Kobe scores a whole lot of points, but some people tend to forget how many bad shots he takes... I mean, Kobe never reached .470%FG, not even once in his career!!!!

for the record: MJ averaged almost 0.500%FG troughout his career (and that includes the terrible shooting years during his last come-back)

2/rebounding and assists:
Kobe averages 5.3 reb and 4.6 *** for his career, that's pretty mediocre and nothing exceptional. (MJ did better for both stats, so did Clyde Drexler, Jerry West, Walt Frazier and even T-Mac is doing better throughout his career)

3/stats in the play-offs
Kobe's stats aren't really dropping in the play-offs, but they're not increasing either...
(MJ was even better in money time)

4/ consistency
Kobe has had superb seasons (05-06 for exemple), but also less superb (03-04 for exemple). Between those two seasons there's a diiference of 11.4ppg ouch!

5/ best years are over
I know people will hate me for saying this, but I truely belive Kobe's best days are over now. He is still top10 NBA for now, but his stats will drop and he will never score 30ppg again if you ask me. Same goes for Duncan, Kidd, Garnett, Iverson, Shaq, McGrady,Carter, Nash and Pierce (best days are over I mean).

Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll figure that out soon enough, won't we??

[KnicksorBust]

I love reading these lists. I'm sure eventually I'll get sick of it but it's so interesting to see how people value things.

My list:
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Oscar
11. Kobe

IMO Oscar and Kareem usually end up seriously underrated in these lists. I think Kobe will eventually enter the top 10 and I think Duncan can move up a spot or two also. This season is fascinating since they both have a legit shot at a ring. Would love to see that WCF.

[G-Funk]

I dunno, why? because his career ain't over so to say that he will never be top 10 is plain stupid

[ink]

To me to be in the top 10 you have to be a guy who has won multiple titles as the best player on your team.

Who wins the titles? I haven't ever seen a player win a title by himself, and yes, I'm including MJ. It's illogical in a team sport to rank someone higher as an INDIVIDUAL just because he was on a strong team. Completely illogical.

As for the thread question, Kobe will probably crack the top 10 by the end of his career. How high he will go is another question. I can't see him displacing anyone from the top 5 though ...

MJ
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Wilt

[ARMIN12NBA]

Who wins the titles? I haven't ever seen a player win a title by himself, and yes, I'm including MJ. It's illogical in a team sport to rank someone higher as an INDIVIDUAL just because he was on a strong team. Completely illogical.

As for the thread question, Kobe will probably crack the top 10 by the end of his career. How high he will go is another question. I can't see him displacing anyone from the top 5 though ...

MJ
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Wilt

Russell is not necessarily a top 5 player though, especially considering his somewhat horrific offensive output. Great defensive player and winner, but he is not on my (and many people's) top 5. That top 5 isn't set in stone is all I'm trying to say. I do have Russell in my top 10 though.

Personally:

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Bird

I think it is possible (not likely though) for Kobe to overtake everybody but MJ IF:

Wins 2 more titles
Wins 2 more Finals MVP
2 more All-Star Appearances
2 more All-NBA Teams
2 more All-Defensive Teams

If he accomplishes all those feats by the end of his career, I would consider him the 2nd greatest of all time. Essentially, his resume would be (hypothetically):

6 NBA Titles
3 NBA Finals MVP
1 Reg. Season MVP
3 (or more) All-Star Game MVP
14+ All-Stars
10+ All-NBA Selections
10+ All-Defense Selections
Stats (overall): 26/5/5 46%/34%/84% (ballparking from memory)

^ That resume (as well as the combo of actual on court play) would exceed Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, etc. in my opinion. I currently have Kobe anywhere from 11-14.

[Toenail Clipper]

Kobe is no top 10 player ever and he will never be.

First of all, you need to let go all the unimportant awards (MVP all star game, slam dunk champion,...)

Second of all, here's a list with Kobe's "weaknesses" (don't take that litterally) and the reason why he will never be top 10:

1/ terrible, terrible %FG
Kobe scores a whole lot of points, but some people tend to forget how many bad shots he takes... I mean, Kobe never reached .470%FG, not even once in his career!!!!

for the record: MJ averaged almost 0.500%FG troughout his career (and that includes the terrible shooting years during his last come-back)

2/rebounding and assists:
Kobe averages 5.3 reb and 4.6 *** for his career, that's pretty mediocre and nothing exceptional. (MJ did better for both stats, so did Clyde Drexler, Jerry West, Walt Frazier and even T-Mac is doing better throughout his career)

3/stats in the play-offs
Kobe's stats aren't really dropping in the play-offs, but they're not increasing either...
(MJ was even better in money time)

4/ consistency
Kobe has had superb seasons (05-06 for exemple), but also less superb (03-04 for exemple). Between those two seasons there's a diiference of 11.4ppg ouch!

5/ best years are over
I know people will hate me for saying this, but I truely belive Kobe's best days are over now. He is still top10 NBA for now, but his stats will drop and he will never score 30ppg again if you ask me. Same goes for Duncan, Kidd, Garnett, Iverson, Shaq, McGrady,Carter, Nash and Pierce (best days are over I mean).

Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll figure that out soon enough, won't we??

you are wrong ;]

[ink]

Hey if all this thread is is Kobe vs. MJ, we've done it a million times and it's gonna get closed.

[ARMIN12NBA]

Kobe is no top 10 player ever and he will never be.

How do you know this? Do you have a crystal ball into the future?

First of all, you need to let go all the unimportant awards (MVP all star game, slam dunk champion,...)

How about all the important awards like MVP, Finals MVP, All-NBA, All-NBA Defense, etc.?

1/ terrible, terrible %FG
Kobe scores a whole lot of points, but some people tend to forget how many bad shots he takes... I mean, Kobe never reached .470%FG, not even once in his career!!!!

The usage of the word terrible is extremely and undeniably hyperbolic. Not to mention it is historically inaccurate.

The average FG% for an SG is around 42%. This essentially means that the average guard will hit that percentage.

Bryant shoots well above this percentage at about a 46-47% clip (he has hit 47% multiple times when rounded off).

The usage of the word terrible is simply hyperbole and inaccurate. Bryant's FG% and eFG% is actually fantastic.

2/rebounding and assists:
Kobe averages 5.3 reb and 4.6 *** for his career, that's pretty mediocre and nothing exceptional. (MJ did better for both stats, so did Clyde Drexler, Jerry West, Walt Frazier and even T-Mac is doing better throughout his career)

McGrady is a forward, I would hope his rebounding numbers are better than Bryant's.

In fact (accuracy), Bryant has been the leading rebounder for shooting guards for a while now. It is extremely unfair to compare Bryant to players of different positions (forwards or centers) and players who played in different eras (faster pace, more possessions in earlier era).

Look at the league Bryant plays in. Kobe Bryant is the leading rebounder for shooting guards in the league.

In terms of assists, Bryant plays in the TPO (Triple Post Offense) and plays the position of SHOOTING guard. His job isn't to distribute as much as other players. Yet, he is still one of the top assist man among shooting guards and averages a fine clip at 5. Dishing out 5 assists is actually quite great and his pure passing fundamentals are fantastic. Passing is more important than assists because assists are simply passes that led to immediate shots. How about a pass that was made to a man that opened up the floor for another open man? There are many fantastic passes in the game of basketball that aren't awarded assists. Yet, Bryant still averages a fine clip and is a very good passer.

3/stats in the play-offs
Kobe's stats aren't really dropping in the play-offs, but they're not increasing either...
(MJ was even better in money time)

How is that a weakness? Wouldn't that mean most players are weak in the playoffs? If I am not mistaken, MJ was the greatest playoff performer ever. Comparing everybody to him would make a lot of guys look weaker...Yet people don't do that. They use the double standards and only compare Kobe to Jordan.

Look at Bryant as his own player. He has been fantastic in the playoffs throughout his career. He has also had low-points, but ever player has had them (even your fave man ).

4/ consistency
Kobe has had superb seasons (05-06 for exemple), but also less superb (03-04 for exemple). Between those two seasons there's a diiference of 11.4ppg ouch!

Every player has those examples. Every singly star players have their peak year while their other years are not nearly as good.

In fact, Bryant has been revered for his amazing consistency. Since 2000, Kobe has been one of the most consistent players in the league. Every year he provides at least 25/5/5 with good defense. IMO, that is pure consistency. Of course, he will have his peak years and he will have years where he played very well, but not as good as his peak.

Every single top notch player has an example of that buddy.

5/ best years are over
I know people will hate me for saying this, but I truely belive Kobe's best days are over now. He is still top10 NBA for now, but his stats will drop and he will never score 30ppg again if you ask me. Same goes for Duncan, Kidd, Garnett, Iverson, Shaq, McGrady,Carter, Nash and Pierce (best days are over I mean).

He doesn't have to score 30 PPG to elevate his status among the all time greats. In fact, it seems as if basketball fans and analysts alike believe that Bryant is at his best when he scores less and incorporates teammates more which he has been doing for a couple years. Kobe is getting older, but is not too old. His best years are definitely over, but I don't see that as a weakness against his career. Every single player declines. Bryant can still be the best on his team and a top 3-5 player for a few more years and win a couple championships, which will elevate him to the top 5-10.

Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll figure that out soon enough, won't we??

Sure. Although many analysts believe Kobe is already Top 10 (Miller, Smith, Worthy, etc.) so your argument is almost moot. IMO, Bryant is top 12 and I believe he can move as high as 2 depending on how the rest of his career plays out.

[bigsams50]

How can you guys say you'd put kobe over shaq? nobody dominated games like shaq did

[ink]

How can you guys say you'd put kobe over shaq? nobody dominated games like shaq did

As much as I dislike the way Shaq affected the game, I agree. He dominated like only a couple of players dominated. People talk about whether Kobe will ever surpass MJ, but I don't even know if Kobe will surpass players like Shaq or even Bird. It looks like he will surpass Duncan because TD's career is winding down and Kobe still has a few elite years left in him.

[ARMIN12NBA]

As much as I dislike the way Shaq affected the game, I agree. He dominated like only a couple of players dominated. People talk about whether Kobe will ever surpass MJ, but I don't even know if Kobe will surpass players like Shaq or even Bird. It looks like he will surpass Duncan because TD's career is winding down and Kobe still has a few elite years left in him.

Well, I personally think Shaq is higher up than Kobe right now. Like I said, if Kobe were to accomplish those feats during the rest of his career, then he would pass those guys IMO. It is just a question of whether or not he can accomplish those feats, which are hard to do.

When comparing Shaq and Kobe all time, Shaq gets the nod right now. The thing is, if Kobe were to accomplish even 1 more NBA Championship/NBA Finals MVP/All-NBA Team/All-Defense Team, then I think he should be above Shaq. For one, Shaq has never been a leader. The reason being is that he was the one who was always out of shape and was nonchalant and needed the guidance of a leader. His overall attitude towards the game was pretty bad. Also, Shaq's skills as a pure basketball player were nothing better than average. A lot of old-timers (people I know who have watched the game since its infancy) always explain how unskilled Shaq is compared to all the other bigs in history. He took advantage of his body, which he very well should have, but even then he underachieved according to many (remember he went to a team that was already a 50+ win team that was very talented in 1996 and couldn't even win a championship or go to the Finals for another 4 years?).

The Top 10 is splitting hairs essentially so if Kobe were to accomplish a bit more, I truly believe that Bryant's hard work ethic and great skill would definitely set him above Shaq. It is not like Kobe doesn't have the dominance and accomplishments himself either.