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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyKaine View Post
    Here's Kobe






















































































































































































































    Here's MJ





























































    and Here is LL

    There is no reason for me to quote this, just wanted to make people scroll down forever.

  2. #17
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    yes MJ is better

  3. #18
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    Is this a question? It's like asking if a million dollars is better than a piece of chicken.

  4. #19
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    Yes Jordan is obviously better and In my own and many others opinions the GOAT. End of discussion.

  5. #20
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    Once again here is Kobe




























































































































    Here is MJ




































































































































    O yea and in no particular order.

  6. #21
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    Mike James killed two stones with one bird.

  7. #22
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    I think the real question here is whether or not MJ is even worthy of cleaning to the stains out of Kobe's shorts with his tongue.

    The PSD's Official Steve Nash Support Crew, Members: R4L

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyKaine View Post
    Once again here is Kobe




























































































































    Here is MJ




































































































































    O yea and in no particular order.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyKaine View Post
    Once again here is Kobe




























































































































    Here is MJ




































































































































    O yea and in no particular order.
    wait did I quote the same message twice??

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyKaine View Post
    Here's Kobe






















































































































































































































    Here's MJ





























































    and Here is LL


    You've been saying the same things in every thread now and you continue to compare Kobe and MJ all the time. I actually like both players, MJ more so because he played for my team, but at this point in time, MJ is better. It doesn't mean he is much better by any means because once you are in that top 10 all time, the difference from the one guy to the next is minimal, however MJ has accomplished more than Kobe and his efficiency, stats is what puts him above Kobe. And when defining who is better you have to look at their total accomplishments, meaning accolades, titles, stats efficiency, etc.


    Case in point:

    Highest PPG Average: 30.12
    Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
    Most scoring titles: 10
    Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

    Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
    The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

    Playoffs
    Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
    33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)
    Most Points in a Game
    63 by Michael Jordan
    Most 50 Point Games
    8 by Michael Jordan
    Most 40 Point Games
    38 by Michael Jordan
    Most 30 Point Games
    109 by Michael Jordan
    Most 20 Point Games
    174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
    -Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59

    In the Playoffs Kobe has 1 game of 50+ and 10 games of 40+ in 12 years. MJ got 8 games of 40+ in one postseason alone and he has more than double the 50+ point games and more than double the 40+ point games than any player in NBA History for the Playoffs

    Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
    MJ - 109
    Kareem - 75
    West -74
    Kobe -64
    Baylor - 60


    ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS

    Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
    Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
    Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0


    ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS

    Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
    Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
    Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...zillgitt_x.htm

    In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
    In 30 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 24.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.3 assists a game on 41% FG



    MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
    Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 1 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
    Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 1
    DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
    Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
    Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
    Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
    Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 4381 (175 games)
    FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
    Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
    PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.64
    Playoffs PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.59 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.04
    Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
    Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...zillgitt_x.htm
    Here were the requirements
    NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
    (All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
    This is how it broke down each category:
    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...ree-team_x.htm

    This is how it broke down each category:
    NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
    NBA championships won (five points each)
    All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
    All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
    All-defensive first team (one point each)
    NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
    All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
    Individual statistical titles (two points each) restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
    Career averages (six points each) if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
    Career playoff averages (five points each) for each category the player leads

    That was the criteria used
    1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
    2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
    3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
    4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
    5th Place: Magic, 102 total points
    Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
    1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
    2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
    3rd Place: KB, 66 total points

    This including this season.


    Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed

    Kobe 21-1 in series with HCA and 21-2 in series with HCA/Top Seed


    Russell is the only other top 20 player all time that has only lost one series with HCA.


    Kobe was a player initially a few years back I didn't like, however he grew on me as his personality changed. He is a competitor on the court and tries his best to succeed. There is nothing more you can ask from such a player.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    You've been saying the same things in every thread now and you continue to compare Kobe and MJ all the time. I actually like both players, MJ more so because he played for my team, but at this point in time, MJ is better. It doesn't mean he is much better by any means because once you are in that top 10 all time, the difference from the one guy to the next is minimal, however MJ has accomplished more than Kobe and his efficiency, stats is what puts him above Kobe. And when defining who is better you have to look at their total accomplishments, meaning accolades, titles, stats efficiency, etc.


    Case in point:

    Highest PPG Average: 30.12
    Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
    Most scoring titles: 10
    Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

    Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
    The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

    Playoffs
    Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
    33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)
    Most Points in a Game
    63 by Michael Jordan
    Most 50 Point Games
    8 by Michael Jordan
    Most 40 Point Games
    38 by Michael Jordan
    Most 30 Point Games
    109 by Michael Jordan
    Most 20 Point Games
    174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
    -Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59

    In the Playoffs Kobe has 1 game of 50+ and 10 games of 40+ in 12 years. MJ got 8 games of 40+ in one postseason alone and he has more than double the 50+ point games and more than double the 40+ point games than any player in NBA History for the Playoffs

    Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
    MJ - 109
    Kareem - 75
    West -74
    Kobe -64
    Baylor - 60


    ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS

    Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
    Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
    Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0


    ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS

    Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
    Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
    Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...zillgitt_x.htm

    In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
    In 30 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 24.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.3 assists a game on 41% FG



    MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
    Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 1 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
    Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 1
    DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
    Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
    Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
    Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
    Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 4381 (175 games)
    FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
    Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
    PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.64
    Playoffs PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.59 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.04
    Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
    Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...zillgitt_x.htm
    Here were the requirements
    NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
    (All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
    This is how it broke down each category:
    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...ree-team_x.htm

    This is how it broke down each category:
    NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
    NBA championships won (five points each)
    All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
    All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
    All-defensive first team (one point each)
    NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
    All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
    Individual statistical titles (two points each) restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
    Career averages (six points each) if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
    Career playoff averages (five points each) for each category the player leads

    That was the criteria used
    1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
    2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
    3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
    4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
    5th Place: Magic, 102 total points
    Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
    1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
    2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
    3rd Place: KB, 66 total points

    This including this season.


    Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed

    Kobe 21-1 in series with HCA and 21-2 in series with HCA/Top Seed


    Russell is the only other top 20 player all time that has only lost one series with HCA.


    Kobe was a player initially a few years back I didn't like, however he grew on me as his personality changed. He is a competitor on the court and tries his best to succeed. There is nothing more you can ask from such a player.
    talk about it being a numbers game



  11. #26
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    NBA RAmblings: Jordan vs. Bryant

    Rambler #1: Jordan vs. Bryant

    He’s won championships, he’s won scoring titles, he’s won the MVP and this season he finally earned a ring without the Big Man. So now that leaves one question: Whose better, Bryant or Jordan?

    The numbers? Jordon has 10 scoring titles, Kobe has 2. Jordan has a 30.1 career scoring average, Bryant has a scoring average of 25.1. Jordan’s best single season scoring average: 37.1, Bryant’s: 35.4 Rebounds? Jordan: 6.2 Bryant: 5.3. Assists, Jordan 5.3, Bryant, 4.6. Steals? Jordan: 2.3, Bryant: 1.5. Rings? Jordan: 6, Bryant 4. Awards? Jordan has six finals MVP awards, 5 league MVP awards, a Rookie of the Year Award, a Defensive Player of the Year award, 10 All-NBA First Team awards, 9 All-Defensive First Team award and a few others. Kobe? He’s got 1 MVP award, 1 Finals MVP, 7 All-NBA First Team awards, and 7 All-Defensive First Team awards and a few other mentionable.

    Jordan 1 Bryant 0

    As things stand now in the JVB debate, Jordan has the upper hand when it comes to numbers, and likely will even after Bryant retires, though Bryant still has a few years to tie and exceed Jordan’s 6 rings and 10 All-|NBA First Team selections. But though numbers offer a starting point for a debate, they cannot offer definitive answers, especially when you are speaking of players at the highest level. Sometimes numbers are just overwhelming, such as in the case of Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jordan, but sometimes the dominant players put up meek stats, such as in the case of Bill Russell (less than 20 points a game on his career) and Tim Duncan (who seldom puts up the 30 point performances that Lebron James and Kobe Bryant put up). Numbers can give you an indication, but not a clear cut answer.

    To get the real answer one needs to look at the impact on the floor, see how a player helps a team win, and how a player helps makes their teammates better. Neither Jordan nor Bryant are the facilitators that Magic and Bird were, and the Duncan and Nash are. Jordan didn’t make Rodman better, Rodman was already the best rebounder in the league, and though Pippen’s success can be attributed to Jordan to a degree (and Phil Jackson’s influence can’t be overstated in this instance), Pippen played his best basketball in his first season without Jordan, while Horace Grant played as well in Orlando as he played in Chicago. Bryant? Well the Lakers were notorious for signing all the championship-hungry all-stars for the league minimum. Shaq was the most dominant center in the league while Kobe was still in high school, while players like: Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Brian Shaw, Isaih Rider, Mitch Richmond, A.C. Green, Ron Harper, John Salley, Lamar Odom and Paul Gasol were all great players before they played next to Bryant. Added to that, Bryant has even discouraged the development of players like Bynum and has been unable to help players like Kwambe Brown develop into solid contributors on the floor, like Jordan did with lesser centers such as Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. The difference is that Jordan was the ultimate alpha male and though he didn’t make other players better the way that Duncan and Magic have, he does have the personality that compels problematic players like Rodman to buy into the system and play to win. This is not something Bryant has the ability to do. Rodman was not well behaved with the Lakers, and Bryant has helped to cause meltdowns between players, such as Shaq and Karl Malone. Jordan never forced the Bulls to trade a player of Shaq’s ability, nor has he chased of a talented coach like Phil Jackson. Bryant’s immaturity has done both. The Lakers are doing well now with Pau Gasol, but the Shaq trade sent that team back several years, and had Memphis not been so desperate to shed Gasol’s contract, the Lakers would still be without a title in the post-Shaq era, and that move of desperation had nothing to do with Bryant’s on-court abilities. As far as who can help a team win, the bottom line in this part of the JVB dbate is this: if Jordan had been playing the Pistons in the NBA finals with Shaq, Malone and Payton, there is no doubt who would have won that series, nor is there any doubt that had the Lakers had Jordan in his prime in June of ‘08, rather than Kobe, Jordan would have been able to dominate the Celtics if he had had players like Odom and Gasol playing along side of him. Though neither player is known for being a facilitator, Jordan it seems is clearly better at maximizing his talents on the court while allowing other all-star calibre players to play their best at the same time.

    Jordan 2 Kobe 0

    There is more than to helping a team win that making those around you better. Even when you make those around you better, the team still needs a go to player, a player to hit the clutch shots, or make the big plays down the stretch, or even take the reigns of the direction of the game when the team hits a funk. Bryant has a reputation for having a killer instinct, but does he? Against the Celtics in ’08, Odom and Gasol played a dominant first quarter and pushed the Lakers to a 20+ lead over the Celtics by the end of the first quarter. That game though Bryant only shot 6-19, ended the night with only 17 points and failed to illustrate that killer instinct as the Celtics were allowed to storm back and take the game. I can’t ever remember a time when Jordan saw his team jump to a 20+ lead and let the game slip away. Later that series, in a do-or-die game 6, Bryant only shot a meagre 7-22 for 22 points and had the lowest +/- of the game at -35, while Ray Allen, the guard Bryant was guarding, shot 8-12 that night. This doesn’t sound like a killer instinct to me, on either end of the court. Jordan saved his big performances for the most important games and put teams down when the Bulls jumped to a big lead. The killer instinct that earned Kobe the nickname “Black Mamba”, may be part of his reputation, but it isn’t a part of his game. Jordan on the other hand never let a team he had down get back up.

    Jordan 3 Bryant 0

    As for clutch shooting, the greatest the league ever saw was Reggie Miller, and likely Jerry West after that, but Jordan could easily be placed at the top of that list as well. Bryant on the other had could not. When the Bulls went on their title runs Jordan hit too many last second shots to count. The night he rained threes all over Portland, the shot he hit to close out the Jazz series and secure his sixth title. There are to many instances to count, and not only did he know how to create and hit the important shots, but he knew when to move the ball as he dished out two memorable assists that lead to game winning shots in the NBA finals, one to John Paxon to close out the series against Phoenix, and one to Steve Kerr, showing that he not only knows how to hit the shot, but he knows when it is appropriate to defer. Looking back at the Lakers’ playoff wins, Robert Horry and Derek Fischer are the guys who have repeatedly hit game winning shots. This year Fischer hit two big threes, one forcing overtime against the Magic, and in that overtime he his a big three that clinched the game, and nobody can forget the last second shot he hit over the Spurs to help save the Lakers from razor sharp teeth of the Spurs that season. Robert Horry of course earned the name “Big Shot Bob” by hitting so many game winners for the Lakers (and also the Rockets and Spurs). Bryant though, during that tenure, never hit a big shot to win a game, and often forced shots trying to be the man and he saw teams like Detroit and Boston come away with finals wins that brought them titles at the expense of the Lakers. Bottom line is Jordan has never failed in the NBA finals, has never let a big lead slip away, and he makes the plays when the game is on the line. Kobe is a brilliant player, and often times he puts up the numbers that keep his teams in the game, but he has let leads slip away, has forced shots without success and has seen teammates close out games while players he has defended, like Ray Allen, and Rip Hamilton, have had big games while Bryant has had lack-lustre performances at the hands of defenders like Tayshawn Prince and Paul Pierce. When it comes to clutch play and the killer instinct, it seems clear that Jordan has the upper hand.

    Jordan 4 Bryant 0

    Defence is an aspect of game that often goes unnoticed with players like Bryant and Jordan who put up a few 40 or 50 point performances each season, but they are both players who take great pride in their defence. Though Bryant has not been awarded with a Defensive Player of the Year award, both players are or were perennial members of the All-Defensive First team. When it comes to regular season play, both these guys are at the top of the league, even if Jordan has won the Defensive Player of the Year award while Bryant has not, and even if Jordan has a higher steals-per game average. Those numbers can be deceptive and don’t always tell the whole story. The real difference is when the playoffs roll around and these guys are guarding the best of the best. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce both found themselves up against Kobe when they had the ball in their hands, Pierce ended up with the Finals MVP award and Allen had his highest scoring average and field-goal percentages of the playoffs that year. Against Detroit in 2004, Bryant defended Rip Hamilton, who averaged a team high 21.4 points a game, up from his regular season average of 17.6 that year. When Bryant guarded Reggie Miller in the NBA finals, he shut him down for one game, but the rest of the series saw Miller score consistently above his regular season averages, including a 35 point game and a 33 point game. Jordan was never short of tough defences assignments in the NBA finals, but he always rose to the occasion. Drexler for example, only scored above his season average in scoring twice that series, and in the other games Jordan had a strangle-hold on him. In the 1998 NBA finals, Jordan held Jeff Hornacek to 4 single digit performances, despite the fact that Hornacel held a scoring average of nearly 20 points a game during the regular season, and though Reggie Miller hit many clutch shots in the playoffs, Jordan always came out on top against Miller. During the regular season, Bryant and Jordan are comparable on defence, but when they are both playing at the highest level, it seems clear that Jordan was a far more dominant defensive presence.

    Jordan 5 Bryant 0

    Bryant is the best shooting guard of his generation, and he may even be the second best shooting guard of all time, though a case could certainly be made for Jerry West and even Clyde Drexler. Jordan however remains clearly at the top of that list, and though it may be fun to compare Bryant with the other greats at his position, and though he remains the best of his generation, there is no debate: Jordan is in a class all his own at the shooting guard position.
    Last edited by Sports Illustrator; 07-18-2009 at 02:09 PM. Reason: removed the spam

  12. #27
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    NBA Ramblings: Jordan vs. Bryant

    Rambler #1: Jordan vs. Bryant

    He’s won championships, he’s won scoring titles, he’s won the MVP and this season he finally earned a ring without the Big Man. So now that leaves one question: Whose better, Bryant or Jordan?

    The numbers? Jordon has 10 scoring titles, Kobe has 2. Jordan has a 30.1 career scoring average, Bryant has a scoring average of 25.1. Jordan’s best single season scoring average: 37.1, Bryant’s: 35.4 Rebounds? Jordan: 6.2 Bryant: 5.3. Assists, Jordan 5.3, Bryant, 4.6. Steals? Jordan: 2.3, Bryant: 1.5. Rings? Jordan: 6, Bryant 4. Awards? Jordan has six finals MVP awards, 5 league MVP awards, a Rookie of the Year Award, a Defensive Player of the Year award, 10 All-NBA First Team awards, 9 All-Defensive First Team award and a few others. Kobe? He’s got 1 MVP award, 1 Finals MVP, 7 All-NBA First Team awards, and 7 All-Defensive First Team awards and a few other mentionable.

    Jordan 1 Bryant 0

    As things stand now in the JVB debate, Jordan has the upper hand when it comes to numbers, and likely will even after Bryant retires, though Bryant still has a few years to tie and exceed Jordan’s 6 rings and 10 All-|NBA First Team selections. But though numbers offer a starting point for a debate, they cannot offer definitive answers, especially when you are speaking of players at the highest level. Sometimes numbers are just overwhelming, such as in the case of Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jordan, but sometimes the dominant players put up meek stats, such as in the case of Bill Russell (less than 20 points a game on his career) and Tim Duncan (who seldom puts up the 30 point performances that Lebron James and Kobe Bryant put up). Numbers can give you an indication, but not a clear cut answer.

    To get the real answer one needs to look at the impact on the floor, see how a player helps a team win, and how a player helps makes their teammates better. Neither Jordan nor Bryant are the facilitators that Magic and Bird were, and the Duncan and Nash are. Jordan didn’t make Rodman better, Rodman was already the best rebounder in the league, and though Pippen’s success can be attributed to Jordan to a degree (and Phil Jackson’s influence can’t be overstated in this instance), Pippen played his best basketball in his first season without Jordan, while Horace Grant played as well in Orlando as he played in Chicago. Bryant? Well the Lakers were notorious for signing all the championship-hungry all-stars for the league minimum. Shaq was the most dominant center in the league while Kobe was still in high school, while players like: Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Brian Shaw, Isaih Rider, Mitch Richmond, A.C. Green, Ron Harper, John Salley, Lamar Odom and Paul Gasol were all great players before they played next to Bryant. Added to that, Bryant has even discouraged the development of players like Bynum and has been unable to help players like Kwambe Brown develop into solid contributors on the floor, like Jordan did with lesser centers such as Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. The difference is that Jordan was the ultimate alpha male and though he didn’t make other players better the way that Duncan and Magic have, he does have the personality that compels problematic players like Rodman to buy into the system and play to win. This is not something Bryant has the ability to do. Rodman was not well behaved with the Lakers, and Bryant has helped to cause meltdowns between players, such as Shaq and Karl Malone. Jordan never forced the Bulls to trade a player of Shaq’s ability, nor has he chased of a talented coach like Phil Jackson. Bryant’s immaturity has done both. The Lakers are doing well now with Pau Gasol, but the Shaq trade sent that team back several years, and had Memphis not been so desperate to shed Gasol’s contract, the Lakers would still be without a title in the post-Shaq era, and that move of desperation had nothing to do with Bryant’s on-court abilities. As far as who can help a team win, the bottom line in this part of the JVB dbate is this: if Jordan had been playing the Pistons in the NBA finals with Shaq, Malone and Payton, there is no doubt who would have won that series, nor is there any doubt that had the Lakers had Jordan in his prime in June of ‘08, rather than Kobe, Jordan would have been able to dominate the Celtics if he had had players like Odom and Gasol playing along side of him. Though neither player is known for being a facilitator, Jordan it seems is clearly better at maximizing his talents on the court while allowing other all-star calibre players to play their best at the same time.

    Jordan 2 Kobe 0

    There is more than to helping a team win that making those around you better. Even when you make those around you better, the team still needs a go to player, a player to hit the clutch shots, or make the big plays down the stretch, or even take the reigns of the direction of the game when the team hits a funk. Bryant has a reputation for having a killer instinct, but does he? Against the Celtics in ’08, Odom and Gasol played a dominant first quarter and pushed the Lakers to a 20+ lead over the Celtics by the end of the first quarter. That game though Bryant only shot 6-19, ended the night with only 17 points and failed to illustrate that killer instinct as the Celtics were allowed to storm back and take the game. I can’t ever remember a time when Jordan saw his team jump to a 20+ lead and let the game slip away. Later that series, in a do-or-die game 6, Bryant only shot a meagre 7-22 for 22 points and had the lowest +/- of the game at -35, while Ray Allen, the guard Bryant was guarding, shot 8-12 that night. This doesn’t sound like a killer instinct to me, on either end of the court. Jordan saved his big performances for the most important games and put teams down when the Bulls jumped to a big lead. The killer instinct that earned Kobe the nickname “Black Mamba”, may be part of his reputation, but it isn’t a part of his game. Jordan on the other hand never let a team he had down get back up.

    Jordan 3 Bryant 0

    As for clutch shooting, the greatest the league ever saw was Reggie Miller, and likely Jerry West after that, but Jordan could easily be placed at the top of that list as well. Bryant on the other had could not. When the Bulls went on their title runs Jordan hit too many last second shots to count. The night he rained threes all over Portland, the shot he hit to close out the Jazz series and secure his sixth title. There are to many instances to count, and not only did he know how to create and hit the important shots, but he knew when to move the ball as he dished out two memorable assists that lead to game winning shots in the NBA finals, one to John Paxon to close out the series against Phoenix, and one to Steve Kerr, showing that he not only knows how to hit the shot, but he knows when it is appropriate to defer. Looking back at the Lakers’ playoff wins, Robert Horry and Derek Fischer are the guys who have repeatedly hit game winning shots. This year Fischer hit two big threes, one forcing overtime against the Magic, and in that overtime he his a big three that clinched the game, and nobody can forget the last second shot he hit over the Spurs to help save the Lakers from razor sharp teeth of the Spurs that season. Robert Horry of course earned the name “Big Shot Bob” by hitting so many game winners for the Lakers (and also the Rockets and Spurs). Bryant though, during that tenure, never hit a big shot to win a game, and often forced shots trying to be the man and he saw teams like Detroit and Boston come away with finals wins that brought them titles at the expense of the Lakers. Bottom line is Jordan has never failed in the NBA finals, has never let a big lead slip away, and he makes the plays when the game is on the line. Kobe is a brilliant player, and often times he puts up the numbers that keep his teams in the game, but he has let leads slip away, has forced shots without success and has seen teammates close out games while players he has defended, like Ray Allen, and Rip Hamilton, have had big games while Bryant has had lack-lustre performances at the hands of defenders like Tayshawn Prince and Paul Pierce. When it comes to clutch play and the killer instinct, it seems clear that Jordan has the upper hand.

    Jordan 4 Bryant 0

    Defence is an aspect of game that often goes unnoticed with players like Bryant and Jordan who put up a few 40 or 50 point performances each season, but they are both players who take great pride in their defence. Though Bryant has not been awarded with a Defensive Player of the Year award, both players are or were perennial members of the All-Defensive First team. When it comes to regular season play, both these guys are at the top of the league, even if Jordan has won the Defensive Player of the Year award while Bryant has not, and even if Jordan has a higher steals-per game average. Those numbers can be deceptive and don’t always tell the whole story. The real difference is when the playoffs roll around and these guys are guarding the best of the best. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce both found themselves up against Kobe when they had the ball in their hands, Pierce ended up with the Finals MVP award and Allen had his highest scoring average and field-goal percentages of the playoffs that year. Against Detroit in 2004, Bryant defended Rip Hamilton, who averaged a team high 21.4 points a game, up from his regular season average of 17.6 that year. When Bryant guarded Reggie Miller in the NBA finals, he shut him down for one game, but the rest of the series saw Miller score consistently above his regular season averages, including a 35 point game and a 33 point game. Jordan was never short of tough defences assignments in the NBA finals, but he always rose to the occasion. Drexler for example, only scored above his season average in scoring twice that series, and in the other games Jordan had a strangle-hold on him. In the 1998 NBA finals, Jordan held Jeff Hornacek to 4 single digit performances, despite the fact that Hornacel held a scoring average of nearly 20 points a game during the regular season, and though Reggie Miller hit many clutch shots in the playoffs, Jordan always came out on top against Miller. During the regular season, Bryant and Jordan are comparable on defence, but when they are both playing at the highest level, it seems clear that Jordan was a far more dominant defensive presence.

    Jordan 5 Bryant 0

    Bryant is the best shooting guard of his generation, and he may even be the second best shooting guard of all time, though a case could certainly be made for Jerry West and even Clyde Drexler. Jordan however remains clearly at the top of that list, and though it may be fun to compare Bryant with the other greats at his position, and though he remains the best of his generation, there is no debate: Jordan is in a class all his own at the shooting guard position.
    Last edited by Sports Illustrator; 07-18-2009 at 02:08 PM. Reason: removed the spam

  13. #28
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    of course Jordan was better than Kobe will ever be. But it seems like the report was def. biased a lil bit and it seems like the things they look at was actually mainly the Boston series.....nuthin else really...but yea no way in hell can someone argue in Kobe's case against Jordan..But Kobe is still the best player in today's game in my mind....

  14. #29
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    You can stop reading after he claimed Kobe forced Shaq to be traded..Same old totally biased retoric..
    ...A Dynasty A Cometh... 1225

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    Um, Kobe has never hit any game winning shots? Hello? Final regular season game vs. Portland 03-04 season? Ties the game, sends it to OT, and drains the game winner? Or perhaps the Phoenix Suns, Game 4 of the 2006 playoffs? Please, no game winners...and don't even get me started on some of the other arguments, they're incredibly biased...

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