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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamhead View Post
    It doesn't tell you anything as a performance metric. It's used as a measure of plate discipline.


    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Hitters have shown that they can control their BABIPs; it's a function of different skills, whether it be speed (Ichiro), how hard they hit the ball (which could be due to their bat speed), etc. Check out Manny Ramirez, Pujols, Ichiro, and even Pierre (speed) to see what I'm talking about. Then look at Juan Uribe or Bengie Molina. It's a small sample size, but it works to illustrate my point.


    Yes. Hitters have shown year to year correlation in the total of these events. Pitchers don't, with the exception of HRs.


    And this is usually due to the amount of Balls in play they give up. If two pitchers have identical BABIPs, but pitcher A gave up 300 BIP, and pitcher B gave up 250 BIP, then pitcher B will give up less hits. Pitcher B will usually have more strikeouts, too.


    Why are you merging these events together? If something is out of a pitcher's immediate control, then that does not mean every event has to be out of their control.


    Nope. Or WHIP.
    I was just wondering if you consider the type of hit, e.g. a ground ball line drive or fly ball, a pitcher gives up to be luck or skill on their part. Because a pitcher who gives up more line drives is most likely going to give up more runs. But is the type of hit in that sense related to either the batter or pitcher's ability? Or am I even making sense?

    I think I'm starting to understand most of what you're saying though. Thanks for hanging with me.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsfan89 View Post
    What's ISO and bRAA?
    ISO stands for Isolated Power. It's basically SLG-BA, a measure of power. The more accurate version adjusts 3B as the same TB as 2B when measuring ISO as triples don't necessarily imply more power than a 2B, just more speed.

    bRAA is batting Runs Above Average. You can really use it for any offensive production stat (OPS, EqA, wOBA), but it's main interpretation is with wOBA. You multiply RV/PA by PA. The entire equation is PA*(wOBA-lgwOBA)/1.15.

    These should be in the glossary thread by the way.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life View Post
    ISO stands for Isolated Power. It's basically SLG-BA, a measure of power. The more accurate version adjusts 3B as the same TB as 2B when measuring ISO as triples don't necessarily imply more power than a 2B, just more speed.

    bRAA is batting Runs Above Average. You can really use it for any offensive production stat (OPS, EqA, wOBA), but it's main interpretation is with wOBA. You multiply RV/PA by PA. The entire equation is PA*(wOBA-lgwOBA)/1.15.

    These should be in the glossary thread by the way.
    couldnt find them.

    whats the range of ISO and bRAA for good, very good, elite players?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life View Post
    ISO stands for Isolated Power. It's basically SLG-BA, a measure of power. The more accurate version adjusts 3B as the same TB as 2B when measuring ISO as triples don't necessarily imply more power than a 2B, just more speed.
    This is ISOp isn't it..for "isolated power"?

    And then ISOd is OBP-AVG, for "isolated discipline"?

    I don't remember which letters you capitalize in it, but the point is there.

  5. #125
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    ISO and ISOp are the same thing, the p is just added on to avoid confusion.

    A .200 ISO is usually very good.

    Bonds bRAA in 04: 96.5
    Pujols bRAA in 08: 71.2
    Luis Castillo bRAA in 08: -5

    Just to give you some perspective of guys you know.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life View Post
    ISO and ISOp are the same thing, the p is just added on to avoid confusion.

    A .200 ISO is usually very good.

    Bonds bRAA in 04: 96.5
    Pujols bRAA in 08: 71.2
    Luis Castillo bRAA in 08: -5

    Just to give you some perspective of guys you know.
    hey hey stop hating on my man luis castillo

  7. #127
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    Just wanted to give you an idea of average

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantes4Life View Post
    That's not what I'm saying. You almost had it right. "His job is to not let a batter hit it, or at least not hit it well." Yes. All he can control is from when he lets the ball go till the batter swings. The batter will either K, BB, get HBP or hit a GB, FB, LD or HR. His job is to avoid walks, line drives, walk as few as possible and have more groundballs than flyballs.

    As for OPS against. Sure it can be used, but it's very ballpark dependent, and a pitcher doesn't have much control of whether balls are a single, double or triple. Why should he be punished because his defense has no range, no arm, or the batter is quick. Or maybe he has large gaps at his ballpark. I think that's the best way to explain it.
    OPS for hitters is also ballpark and defense dependent though. Hitters may get robbed of base hits or get lucky on some because of the park or defense. So it seems like that same logic applies to both sides.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoggin88 View Post
    OPS for hitters is also ballpark and defense dependent though. Hitters may get robbed of base hits or get lucky on some because of the park or defense. So it seems like that same logic applies to both sides.
    It does and should. Which is a big problem I have with WAR. For pitchers its theoretical for hitters its production.

    Now granted for hitters it should even itself out a little bit over a year better than a pitcher but not all the time.

    THT has a stat I like called PrOPS. I would like to see more stats like it, and readily available.

    Its odd that we take ERA as nearly worthless, but then take stats like wOBA and OPS as if they are golden. Its rather odd.
    Free CSSTL

  10. #130
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    nevermind lol.


    Thanks to vick27m for the userbar.

    A little nonsense, now and then, is relished by the wisest men.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoggin88 View Post
    OPS for hitters is also ballpark and defense dependent though. Hitters may get robbed of base hits or get lucky on some because of the park or defense. So it seems like that same logic applies to both sides.
    The difference is the impact. For hitters, it's marginal.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoggin88 View Post
    OPS for hitters is also ballpark and defense dependent though. Hitters may get robbed of base hits or get lucky on some because of the park or defense. So it seems like that same logic applies to both sides.
    OPS is in more control by the hitter though. If two players hit a line drive in the gap, they won't necessarily have the same result.

    Quote Originally Posted by poodski View Post
    It does and should. Which is a big problem I have with WAR. For pitchers its theoretical for hitters its production.

    Now granted for hitters it should even itself out a little bit over a year better than a pitcher but not all the time.

    THT has a stat I like called PrOPS. I would like to see more stats like it, and readily available.

    Its odd that we take ERA as nearly worthless, but then take stats like wOBA and OPS as if they are golden. Its rather odd.
    It is, but the way ERA fluctuates so much it makes sense. And I like PrOPS too

  13. #133
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    I know nothing about Sabermetrics....quick question though. Someone stated that Jayson Werth was a "bad" fielder.

    For instance, last year he was a 16.9 Rng , 21.5 UZR and a 35.3 UZR/150...isn't that considered good? The season before that he was pretty high as well.

    What's considered good numbers when judging a fielder?

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Donnie View Post
    I know nothing about Sabermetrics....quick question though. Someone stated that Jayson Werth was a "bad" fielder.

    For instance, last year he was a 16.9 Rng , 21.5 UZR and a 35.3 UZR/150...isn't that considered good? The season before that he was pretty high as well.

    What's considered good numbers when judging a fielder?
    Werth is a fantastic fielder. Ignore the butthurt Dodgers fans.

    A 0 UZR is average, which makes his 21.5 UZR from last season phenomenal. Only Alex Rios had a better mark among qualified outfielders. By contrast, Brad Hawpe's -37.2 UZR last season means he is ****ing atrocious in the field.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuckus View Post
    Werth is a fantastic fielder. Ignore the butthurt Dodgers fans.

    A 0 UZR is average, which makes his 21.5 UZR from last season phenomenal. Only Alex Rios had a better mark among qualified outfielders. By contrast, Brad Hawpe's -37.2 UZR last season means he is ****ing atrocious in the field.
    Well to be fair, the only reason Werth's UZR is that high is because his "Edge Coefficient," the amount a player looks like WWE Superstar Edge, is the highest in the league. It's just under 1.



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