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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    45,202

    Time to Amend the Save Stat


  2. #2
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    Jan 2008
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    ILSTU
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    I kind of like this idea... I imagine it would be hard to implement due to the $$$ that is so closely tied to the "save". I'm sure they could figure out a money system with this though too.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    Cool Ranch, NM
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    23,689
    People don't really judge relievers based on saves these days anyway. No need to amend anything. Set up men and middle relievers are getting paid their due now.
    Quote Originally Posted by El Patito View Post
    Wow, you just won't let this go will you? I'd be more than happy to provide the numbers again if you'd like. The fact is that Marmol in his best season, put up one of the greatest performances by a reliever in the history of baseball. Better than Rivera? Youre damn right. You can't deny this.
    Marmolololololol

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    People don't really judge relievers based on saves these days anyway.
    ^ What he said except I would tweak it as, "Knowledgeable people don't..."

  5. #5
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    Nov 2010
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    Annapolis MD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    People don't really judge relievers based on saves these days anyway. No need to amend anything. Set up men and middle relievers are getting paid their due now.
    I was about ready to disagree, but O'Day and Miller got paid for not closing out games previously so I agree.

  6. #6
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    Jul 2010
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    I don't think the stat should be absolved, but I think amending it to encompass a true 'save' of a win for a team would hold more merit.

    WPA for relievers all day when it comes to situational helping of the team to win a game.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Randomly, but why hasn't Tyler Clippard signed yet?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    Los Angeles County, CA
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    31,445
    Stark picked the lamest argument to debate out of the rest

    Well maybe that goes to dugout to dugout netting.
    Alshon's Athletic Bloodlines Run Deep (AND CATCH EVERYTHING)


  9. #9
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    Sep 2010
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    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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    Time to Amend the Save Stat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Randomly, but why hasn't Tyler Clippard signed yet?
    His arm is scheduled to fall off on June 8.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    Stark picked the lamest argument to debate out of the rest

    Well maybe that goes to dugout to dugout netting.
    His relief point idea is silly.

    But I think the save stat needs to be amended or removed all together

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    591
    It's kind of a stupid argument. Yeah, it's kind of a useless stat, but it's not going away. Some of the most useless stats are the most traditional - like pitcher wins, batting average, RBIs, etc - and are still favoured by many writers when handing out awards.

    However it's pretty obvious teams with bigger budgets see the value in having a solid pen top to bottom. Relievers in a non-closing role are getting their due anyway, like mentioned Oday, Miller are getting paid. Storen might not be closing as a Jay and is nearly making 9M to pitch 55 innings. That's the problem though - teams on budgets are probably more likely to spend their limited resources on everyday players and starters who are going to pitch 125-200 innings as opposed to a reliever pitching 55-60. It's sort of the last priority for teams on a budget, which is most of the league.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,198
    It's always bothered me that there is basically an order managers go by regarding relievers.

    If the opponents top hitters are coming up in the 8th, then go with your best guy, which I would imagine would be your closer.

    I mean, sure, most teams have more than capable set up men but still, it bothers me that it's just a brainless decision to just automatically go with how it's "supposed to be"....if that makes any sense.

  13. #13
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    Dec 2008
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    Philadelphia
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    76,292
    Bases Loaded 1 out... Up 3 in the 6th.... Why not bring in your best arm like your closer? Instead they bring in their 7th inning guys are play right vs left which to me is moronic... Get rid of the stupid save stat and when you are in the most danger you bring in your best pitcher period. Its not possible to do this now because closers get paid by the save and I am sure there are clauses in certain contracts that state save this many games and get this much money. The Notion that the 6th inning isnt as important as the 9th inning is moronic to me... BRING IN YOUR BEST PITCHER WHEN **** IS ON THE LINE.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    591
    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    Bases Loaded 1 out... Up 3 in the 6th.... Why not bring in your best arm like your closer? Instead they bring in their 7th inning guys are play right vs left which to me is moronic... Get rid of the stupid save stat and when you are in the most danger you bring in your best pitcher period. Its not possible to do this now because closers get paid by the save and I am sure there are clauses in certain contracts that state save this many games and get this much money. The Notion that the 6th inning isnt as important as the 9th inning is moronic to me... BRING IN YOUR BEST PITCHER WHEN **** IS ON THE LINE.
    It's not a strategy that is totally devoid of any though process though. And in your example the game isn't exactly on the line. Up by 3 in the top of 6th bases loaded with 1 out... the win expectancy is 74% for the home team.

    http://gregstoll.dyndns.org/~gregsto...html#V.3.6.0.1

    You can use your middle relievers and play the lefty/righty splits in their favour, with the idea being to get improved results out of a lesser reliever based on favourable matchups. Then when you get to the 9th you can either forget the matchps and go with your closer, or if you've expanded your lead save your closer for the next game.

    Baseball is a pitcher's game. Even your teams worst relievers you would expect to get a hold 6-7+ times out of 10, even higher with favourable matchups. Obviously there's a number of other factors at play here -- what relievers are available -- did your closer play in the last 2-3 games? What middle relievers are available? Where is the opponent in their batting order?

  15. #15
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    Apr 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRocket44 View Post
    It's not a strategy that is totally devoid of any though process though. And in your example the game isn't exactly on the line. Up by 3 in the top of 6th bases loaded with 1 out... the win expectancy is 74% for the home team.

    http://gregstoll.dyndns.org/~gregsto...html#V.3.6.0.1
    Nice to see someone use WE
    And you win about 98% of the time up 3 in the 9th - but you get a save
    And you win about 94% of the time up 2 in the 9th - but you get a save
    And you win about 86% of the time up 1 in the 9th - but you get a save


    3 of the top 5 relievers in WPA last year weren't full time closers
    Dellin Betances - 9 saves
    Wade Davis - 17 saves
    Tony Watson - 1 save
    *http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ers=0&sort=3,d
    Donít argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. óGreg King


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