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  1. #1
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    An interesting perspective on China's way of thinking

    http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/chine...-japanese-war/

    China is gearing up for the 120th anniversary of the First Sino-Japanese War, which began in 1894 and ended with China’s defeat in 1895. The war was a devastating blow to China’s then-rulers, the Qing dynasty, as China had always considered Japan a ‘little brother’ rather than a serious competitor. The war is often seen as the defining point when power in East Asia shifted from China to Japan, as Tokyo claimed control of the Chinese territories of Taiwan and the Liaodong Peninsula (site of the port city of Dalian) as well as Korea (which changed from being a Chinese vassal to an officially independent state under Japanese influence).

    To commemorate the 120th anniversary of the war, Xinhua published a special supplement to its Reference News newspaper. The supplement consisted of 30 articles by members of the People’s Liberation Army “analyzing what China can learn from its defeat” in the Sino-Japanese war. Summing up the articles, Xinhua said that “the roots of China’s defeat lay not on military reasons, but the outdated and corrupt state system, as well as the ignorance of maritime strategy.” This conclusion has obvious modern-day applications, as China’s leadership is currently emphasizing both reform and a new focus on China’s navy.

    The PLA authors laid the bulk of the blame for China’s defeat on the Qing dynasty’s failure to effectively modernize. “Japan’s victory proved that its westernization drive, the Meiji Restoration, was the right path, despite its militarist tendency,” Xinhua summarized. Political commissar of China’s National Defense University Liu Yazhou compared Japan’s reforms to China’s: “One made reforms from its mind, while another only made changes on the surface.”

    Though these comments are referencing a conflict from 120 years ago, it’s easy to see the relevance for today. Xi Jinping is trying to spearhead China’s most ambitious reform package since the days of Deng Xiaoping, including not only difficult economic rebalancing but also an overhaul of the way China’s bureaucracy (both civilian and military) is organized. In other words, China still needs to finish the modernization project that the Qing half-heartedly began in the 19th century. Westernization (what today China would call modernization) remains “the right path.”

    Other PLA officers argued that corruption was a major contributing factor to China’s defeat by the Japanese in 1895. Vice Admiral Ding Yiping, a deputy commander in the PLAN, blamed the defeat on “corruption and fatuity in politics.” Major-General Jin Yinan, a strategist at NDU, said that China’s Beiyang Fleet at the time had all the necessary equipment, but that the period of peace before the war led to “the general mood of the fleet becoming depraved.”

    As part of these reforms, Xi has repeatedly warned about the danger of corruption, particularly in the military. In one of his first major policy pronouncement after being named Secretary General of the Communist Party, Xi urged China’s military to be ready for battle. “It is the top priority for the military to be able to fight and win battles and it is fundamental that the military consolidates itself through governing the troops lawfully and austerely,” Xi said in a speech in Guangzhou. One could say that Xi saw a “depraved” mood in China’s own military, where personal profit concerns outweighed national security. It’s no coincidence that a PLA general now highlights that same factor as a major cause in one of China’s most stinging military defeats.

    PLA officers also emphasized the importance of maritime strategy in Japan’s victory in the Sino-Japanese war. Under this argument, China was defeated because it had neglected naval warfare in its preparations. Up until recently, this remained largely true. China’s naval forces were historically subordinate to the ground forces, as evidenced by the very name: People’s Liberation Army Navy.

    However, Xi Jinping has been pushing for more attention to go to China’s navy, as well as its coast guard. In support of this position, Vice Admiral Ding wrote that maritime strategy was a key to China’s defeat 120 years ago, and that the ocean remains central to national interests today. “State security cannot be ensured if maritime rights cannot be safeguarded,” Ding said.

    Xi Jinping apparently shares this view, as he has called for China to become a maritime power. “The oceans and seas have an increasingly important strategic status concerning global competition in the spheres of politics, economic development, military, and technology,” Xi said at a July 2013 study session with Politburo members. China’s new focus on naval assets has also brought renewed attempts to demonstrate sovereignty in disputed maritime areas from the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands to the Spratlys. The Xinhua articles use the Sino-Japanese War as a lesson to back Xi’s increased focus on maritime security and strategy.

    Last, but certainly not least, the PLA experts ended with the most obvious argument: that the First Sino-Japanese War proves the dangers of militarism in Japan. Chinese officials generally use Japan’s World War II conduct to criticize modern-day Tokyo, probably because this gives their criticisms a global application. But to China, the First Sino-Japanese War actually marked the beginning of Japan’s militaristic, imperialistic tendencies. Chinese scholars see this trend as continuing unabated until Japan’s defeat in World War II—which is also known as the Second Sino-Japanese War in Chinese (or, more colloquially, as the War of Resistance Against Japan).

    Several of the PLA authors drew explicit parallels between the lead-up to the Sino-Japanese War and today. One national security policy expert, Peng Guangqian, said that the rise of militarism in Japan today echoes the situation in Japan in 1894. He warned China to “guard against the sneak attacks that Japan has a history of making.”

    However, unwilling to end on a sour note, Xinhua ended by citing General Liu’s argument that, despite losing the war, China ‘won’ in the long-term. Liu said that China’s memory of the “humiliation” of its defeat helped spark its current rise to power, whereas Japan is still suffering the consequences of its overreach in World War II.

    Foreign scholars are more interested in looking back at World War I and its implication for Asia, but in China they have their sights set even farther in the past. Chinese military officers are using the memory of one of China’s most humiliating defeats to argue for the importance of modern-day issues like reform, a naval build-up, and the need to be wary of Japan. The implication is clear: follow Xi’s prescriptions, or risk another national humiliation.
    i thought the politics section will appreciate this more than the "general discussions" section. and considering China will be our biggest rival in the 21st century (Russia and the Middle East are all distractions), understanding their perspective will give us a better understanding of our greatest rival. it will give us a better understanding of why they do what they do...what goals they're trying to accomplish...and how to better manage them.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOBolous View Post
    http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/chine...-japanese-war/



    i thought the politics section will appreciate this more than the "general discussions" section. and considering China will be our biggest rival in the 21st century (Russia and the Middle East are all distractions), understanding their perspective will give us a better understanding of our greatest rival. it will give us a better understanding of why they do what they do...what goals they're trying to accomplish...and how to better manage them.
    Fob, I disagree with your premise that China will be the biggest rival in the 21st century. The demographics in China do to the (now modified) one child policy are going to severely hobble China. China is already suffering from this in some ways. In my opinion, the 21st century rival will be India. They have a strong middle class, education, natural resources, and a social structure that appears to be coalescing. In my opinion, China is going to fall into the rut that befell Japan following its bubble of the 70's.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Fob, I disagree with your premise that China will be the biggest rival in the 21st century. The demographics in China do to the (now modified) one child policy are going to severely hobble China. China is already suffering from this in some ways. In my opinion, the 21st century rival will be India. They have a strong middle class, education, natural resources, and a social structure that appears to be coalescing. In my opinion, China is going to fall into the rut that befell Japan following its bubble of the 70's.
    lol India has waaaaaaaaaaaay more problems than China. for all they have going for them, they have much more holding them back. You think curruption is a big problem in China? Let's not begin to talk about India. and its military is an embarrassment. it was humiliated at the hands of the Chinese in minor border scrimmages, and it still struggles to best Pakistan. let that sink in a little....Pakistan. While China supports North Korea, fends off Japan, expands its influences beyond its border, and modernizes its military to compete with the United States.....India's military has plateaued in its standoff vs Pakistan.

    I think the NY Times can explain why India trails China better than me:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/op...hina.html?_r=0

    The hope that India might overtake China one day in economic growth now seems a distant one. But that comparison is not what should worry Indians most. The far greater gap between India and China is in the provision of essential public services — a failing that depresses living standards and is a persistent drag on growth.

    Inequality is high in both countries, but China has done far more than India to raise life expectancy, expand general education and secure health care for its people. India has elite schools of varying degrees of excellence for the privileged, but among all Indians 7 or older, nearly one in every five males and one in every three females are illiterate. And most schools are of low quality; less than half the children can divide 20 by 5, even after four years of schooling.

    India may be the world’s largest producer of generic medicine, but its health care system is an unregulated mess. The poor have to rely on low-quality — and sometimes exploitative — private medical care, because there isn’t enough decent public care. While China devotes 2.7 percent of its gross domestic product to government spending on health care, India allots 1.2 percent.
    what the NY Times is describing seems to contradict your assertion that india has a strong middle class, education, and social structure.
    Last edited by FOBolous; 04-18-2014 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Fob, I disagree with your premise that China will be the biggest rival in the 21st century. The demographics in China do to the (now modified) one child policy are going to severely hobble China. China is already suffering from this in some ways. In my opinion, the 21st century rival will be India. They have a strong middle class, education, natural resources, and a social structure that appears to be coalescing. In my opinion, China is going to fall into the rut that befell Japan following its bubble of the 70's.
    Agreed, on India economically. I would pay further attention to Pakistan, and burgeoning markets in South Vietnam and Bangladesh. Solely for the fact that retailers are broadening their horizons for cheap clothing labor. Techno--wise China/India with the leg up. Therefore, in the apparent battle for techno supremacy, they are most third world, err second world rivals.
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  5. #5
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    If we are looking for the next border powder keg--look no further than Pakistan and India. Another opportunity for the established regime's in America to provide world police efforts...for future political electee's. EZ in EZ out.
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  6. #6
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    Personally, I like the fact that most American's think that the national debt is owned by the Chinese....when in fact we own 50%+ (8-10 trillion) just through the Federal Reserve of the US. I know I will never see the money back...but to be fearful of China--3 trillion +/- as owning this country is f'n laughable/ridiculous.

    EDIT: the enemy is US-- and our society, when it come to financial issues. Now is this a thread from a premise of who the authoritarians choose as an immediate threat?...or whom's economy is doing well; or what World police efforts my tax dollars will have to go to? I miss the 3 billion of aid to Ukraine and others (Libya, Egypt, etc) previously.
    Last edited by Jester4k0; 04-18-2014 at 05:23 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester4k0 View Post
    Personally, I like the fact that most American's think that the national debt is owned by the Chinese....when in fact we own 50%+ (8-10 trillion) just through the Federal Reserve of the US. I know I will never see the money back...but to be fearful of China--3 trillion +/- as owning this country is f'n laughable/ridiculous.

    EDIT: the enemy is US-- and our society, when it come to financial issues. Now is this a thread from a premise of who the authoritarians choose as an immediate threat?...or whom's economy is doing well; or what World police efforts my tax dollars will have to go to? I miss the 3 billion of aid to Ukraine and others (Libya, Egypt, etc) previously.
    We own roughly two-thirds of the debt. China owns roughly 8%, Japan owns 7%, "Oil Exporters" own about 2%, Brazil and the UK both own about 1%, and all other countries own about 15%. Now these numbers are a bit dated (2012). But if anything, the percent that we own would have gone up due to the Fed's intervention into the bond market.

    Based off the numbers that I posted, China's ownership fo debt would be about half of the absolute number you posted (under $1.5T).
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    We own roughly two-thirds of the debt. China owns roughly 8%, Japan owns 7%, "Oil Exporters" own about 2%, Brazil and the UK both own about 1%, and all other countries own about 15%. Now these numbers are a bit dated (2012). But if anything, the percent that we own would have gone up due to the Fed's intervention into the bond market.

    Based off the numbers that I posted, China's ownership fo debt would be about half of the absolute number you posted (under $1.5T).
    Thank you, Dbronc. Once again why are the American people spending money to control the World? Or potentially choosing to do so? I was right in my rant, even better stats for my premise, from your post. Why would we even entertain options to "worry" about 3rd world countries" border conflicts.

    Because of a World economy, to be sure. And fear mongering by both parties' media machines, imo.
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  9. #9
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    A good number of people in this country ****** about the money spent on the poor here---their, and our, tax dollars. I am ok with that---I don't like supporting other countries and their poor/businesses to for the US businesses to make money. On top of that, it is sold as "humanitarian efforts"/"keep the World economy going"---American society is way completely selfish---and the politicians, too.

    Edit: I am ok with my taxes going to the poor neighbors in the US. I prefer it that way.
    Last edited by Jester4k0; 04-18-2014 at 05:42 PM.
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    Before I get smacked.....does the relief that taxpayers give domestically....Well, is it a "give and take" sort of strategy? If my taxes go to folks struggling at home---does that take away from potential profits abroad, is my question.

    Rob domestic Peter to pay Paul abroad?

    Edit: If so, than the American economy is "good to go". Now there is enough to spread the wealth abroad and neither parties' minions can ****** about the system at home..... How as country/"society" do we reconcile help abroad-----new spending--with the necessity to provide for our own? Greatest most richest country in the World, my azz.
    Last edited by Jester4k0; 04-18-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Fob, it is an interesting opinion piece, but, neither it nor you addressed the underlying premise of my comment which is the demographic mess that China finds itself in. The one child policy has long term effects that are not in any way looked at by the writer. The effects of this policy will not be fully felt for about another ten years, but, you can see the effects beginning now. China is importing slave labor from N. Korea to do jobs that they do not have the healthy citizenry to do itself. Right now, the shortage is manifesting itself in more physical than mental tasks, but, the demographics cannot be corrected quickly or easily. So, if you want to address this issue, I would be happy to continue, but, if you want to "lol" then your lack of argument is obvious to all.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester4k0 View Post
    Before I get smacked.....does the relief that taxpayers give domestically....Well, is it a "give and take" sort of strategy? If my taxes go to folks struggling at home---does that take away from potential profits abroad, is my question.

    Rob domestic Peter to pay Paul abroad?

    Edit: If so, than the American economy is "good to go". Now there is enough to spread the wealth abroad and neither parties' minions can ****** about the system at home..... How as country/"society" do we reconcile help abroad-----new spending--with the necessity to provide for our own? Greatest most richest country in the World, my azz.
    It happens because it's extremely profitable. Rand Paul made a great point about Cheney recently, where he said that he did a lot of what he did in Iraq because of his previous relationship with Haliburton.

    People at that company that were close to Cheney make contributions totaling in the millions to Cheney's people and in return they win multi-billion dollar contracts to do work for the government. That's a hell of an ROI for Haliburton and their executives.

    It's pretty easy to doop the American people into believing their tax dollars are being spent in ways to help poor people and victims of war crimes in other countries. I believe that this country has the greatest minds in the world but it is also home to the greatest collection of gullible fools with money to part in the way of taxes to fund projects by very powerful people.
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