Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 90

Thread: Censorship

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Shakedown Street, Japan
    Posts
    30,292
    vCash
    1500

    Censorship

    In the Joe Biden thread we went a little off topic and got into some censorship issues. Tipper Gore's name came up, which reminded me of the whole PMRC fiasco that started album labeling - and by extension, now, video game labeling.

    And for me, I can't think about that without thinking about one of my cultural heroes, Frank Zappa. These 4 videos here are his testimony before the U.S. Senate when they had hearings on the PMRC's desire to stick warning labels on what they were calling "porno rock". There's an interesting exchange between Zappa and a young Al Gore (who is, to a certain degree, sticking up for his wife) which I found pretty amusing. Overall, I'd call this "When truth speaks to power". And it's pretty amazing that 23 years later, the same debates are still going on regarding video games and music and censorship.

    Part 1
    Part 2
    Part 3
    Part 4

    There are some other really great videos on youtube from the same era - Zappa on Larry King Live, on "Nightwatch" debating some PMRC woman. That one's pretty funny.

    Anyways, I thought if there was going to be a discussion of censorship here, this might be a good starting place for it, because these hearings were pretty much the first time that Congress really got into the mix on the issue.
    I blog basketball at Roundball Mining Company///Twitter: @denbutsu

    Atheists Of PSD

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    As gcol said, free speech was never meant to protect the majority. Instead, it was meant to (like most clauses in the first amendment) protect the often unpopular minority. While there are days I'd like to stick Michael Moore into a meat grinder or take a cheese grater to Al Franken's smug face, I respect their right to speak. And they're arguably a bigger threat to society than any kkk member or neo-nazi member.

    Because, really, the only KKK member with any influence on society is Democratic Senator Robert Byrd.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    And they're arguably a bigger threat to society than any kkk member or neo-nazi member.
    You're just being provocative to be provocative. lol. Obviously you can't believe that.
    Last edited by ink; 08-25-2008 at 11:27 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    In the Joe Biden thread we went a little off topic and got into some censorship issues. Tipper Gore's name came up, which reminded me of the whole PMRC fiasco that started album labeling - and by extension, now, video game labeling.

    And for me, I can't think about that without thinking about one of my cultural heroes, Frank Zappa. These 4 videos here are his testimony before the U.S. Senate when they had hearings on the PMRC's desire to stick warning labels on what they were calling "porno rock". There's an interesting exchange between Zappa and a young Al Gore (who is, to a certain degree, sticking up for his wife) which I found pretty amusing. Overall, I'd call this "When truth speaks to power". And it's pretty amazing that 23 years later, the same debates are still going on regarding video games and music and censorship.

    Part 1
    Part 2
    Part 3
    Part 4

    There are some other really great videos on youtube from the same era - Zappa on Larry King Live, on "Nightwatch" debating some PMRC woman. That one's pretty funny.

    Anyways, I thought if there was going to be a discussion of censorship here, this might be a good starting place for it, because these hearings were pretty much the first time that Congress really got into the mix on the issue.
    I like Zappa's line about "treating dandruff by decapitation". That's the point I was trying to make in the other thread. Something as serious as censorship shouldn't be about spurious issues. But it needs to be there to deal with larger issues like racism, hate, slander and personal attacks.
    Last edited by ink; 08-25-2008 at 11:33 AM.

  5. 08-25-2008, 12:02 PM
    Reason
    those sites were disturbing

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    And it shouldn't be there against hate and personal attack. It really shouldn't be. Unless by attack you mean non-verbal, in which case we're on the same side. And not because I support classifying some crimes as hate crimes, but because it's assault. And that's a crime.

    Here's my issue with classifying hate crimes. First, you have to get into the mind of the criminal. And that's hard to do. Is he a racist because he made a politically correct joke? She refused to hire that Hispanic woman, does she hate people of color?

    In addition, if I, a white male, am beaten up is my pain any lesser than a black man beaten up? Probably not. But if a white guy beats up me and the black guy, he's gonna get punished more severely for hurting the black guy. And that's wrong.

    You can't control how people think, and I don't need Congress telling me how to think.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    21,592
    vCash
    1500
    There are some other really great videos on youtube from the same era - Zappa on Larry King Live, on "Nightwatch" debating some PMRC woman. That one's pretty funny.
    I've watched all those before.

    There's also some stuff from "crossfire" that he was on.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    No, I can.

    When was the last time your life was negatively affected by a kkk member or a neo-nazi member? That's a serious question.
    Twice when I was going to the Goethe Institut (a language school for foreign students) in Germany. Once south of Munich when an African friend of mine was told to get out of a bar by a customer and it led to a fight ... and once in Bremen when we were woken up in the middle of the night many times by skinheads who were threatening the so-called "pakis" (who were actually African, Indian and Turkish, but whatever) who were going to school there. This was at a time when several homes were burned down by the neo-nazis in Germany. The constant threat of that is what's called "terrorism" and it had its effect on all of us. So, yeah, I have experienced it directly. No offense, but you need more experience in order to understand some of these issues. These aren't just issues you read about online or in books and newspapers. They ARE serious issues that still exist in the world.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    And it shouldn't be there against hate and personal attack. It really shouldn't be. Unless by attack you mean non-verbal, in which case we're on the same side. And not because I support classifying some crimes as hate crimes, but because it's assault. And that's a crime.

    Here's my issue with classifying hate crimes. First, you have to get into the mind of the criminal. And that's hard to do. Is he a racist because he made a politically correct joke? She refused to hire that Hispanic woman, does she hate people of color?

    In addition, if I, a white male, am beaten up is my pain any lesser than a black man beaten up? Probably not. But if a white guy beats up me and the black guy, he's gonna get punished more severely for hurting the black guy. And that's wrong.

    You can't control how people think, and I don't need Congress telling me how to think.
    Of course there should be regulations against hate crimes. But maybe that's why I value our system of free speech over America's. You may not realize it, but many countries in the world believe that we do a better job with democratic ideals than the USA. You're told so often that you are the heart of democracy in the world that you believe it. We don't. We think the USA is wealthy and benefits from exceptionalism, but we don't necessarily embrace some of the core values you believe to be gospel. The right to bear arms and absolute free speech are two of those questionable values. I don't mean to insult. I'm just making it clear that I see those things as minuses where you undoubtedly see them as pluses.
    Last edited by ink; 08-25-2008 at 12:32 PM.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    No, I can.

    When was the last time your life was negatively affected by a kkk member or a neo-nazi member? That's a serious question. Outside of Hollywood movies when was it? Because I imagine if you add up the number of KKK members and neo-nazi members, very few of them have influence in real life. Yes, they alll flock together on www.jewsshouldbeburned.com or www.welovethepresidentofiran.com. But who cares if they have some online websites? So do Ron Paul fans, and they're crazy too. But when was the last time one hurt your life?

    In terms of Moore and Franken: both those men and neo-nazis and KKK members put out propaganda every day. But out of the four, which two reach the most people? Which two are winning awards for their blatant lies and propaganda? Now granted, Michael Moore's never killed a man before. But neither has your average KKK member. They're just crazy rednecks going to your friendly Wal-Mart. They're not convincing people Fidel Castro's idea of medicine rocks, or Iraqis were flying kites and being joyful until Uncle Sam invaded.

    And despite it all, KKK members never cheered after 9/11, or said "red states" should have died instead of "blue states."
    never from them per se, but I've definitely experienced discrimination/anti-Semitism/other things that would make them proud.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Twice when I was going to the Goethe Institut (a language school for foreign students) in Germany. Once south of Munich when an African friend of mine was told to get out of a bar by a customer and it led to a fight ... and once in Bremen when we were woken up in the middle of the night many times by skinheads who were threatening the so-called "pakis" (who were actually African, Indian and Turkish, but whatever) who were going to school there. This was at a time when several homes were burned down by the neo-nazis in Germany. The constant threat of that is what's called "terrorism" and it had its effect on all of us. So, yeah, I have experienced it directly. No offense, but you need more experience in order to understand some of these issues. These aren't just issues you read about online or in books and newspapers. They ARE serious issues that still exist in the world.
    So you had to go all the way to Germany, the birthplace of Naziism, to find neo-nazis. To be, that's a good thing. But the fact that those in America have so little influence trumps everything in terms of this discussion. Because I was talking about something more along the lines of the US congress censoring people. Or forcing ISP's to censor people.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Of course there should be regulations against hate crimes. But maybe that's why I value our system of free speech over America's.
    I see where you're coming from. But the entire Bill of Rights and supplemental amendments was meant to protect the minority or disenfranchised. That's how American works. We didn't say "sorry Blacks nobody gives a **** about you being free." They passed the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendment. And at the time, even those in the north didn't respect black people. They truly didn't. The constitution isn't up for a national consensus. That's why I shook my head with pity when Justice Anthony Kennedy ruled against executing rapers and other non-murderers because of "a lack of national consensus."

    While the US constitution is often up for interpretation, it isn't American Idol. Either our constitution supports regulating hate crimes or not. Either our constitution supports censorship or not (Hint: it doesn't). But what the constitution says has nothing to do with the will of the people. Nor should it.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    So you had to go all the way to Germany, the birthplace of Naziism, to find neo-nazis. To be, that's a good thing. But the fact that those in America have so little influence trumps everything in terms of this discussion. Because I was talking about something more along the lines of the US congress censoring people. Or forcing ISP's to censor people.
    You think there isn't racism or anti-semitism in the USA?

    In our own democratic system, that is exactly the kind of thing parliament should be engaged against. I firmly believe it's the responsibility of elected representatives to deal with hate. It's also the responsibility of the legal system. I see no problem whatsoever with that.

    And I didn't have to go "all the way to Germany" to find neo-nazis. I don't live in my country like an island free of the rest of the world's ills. If issues like anti-semitism and racism have existed in the world, they exist literally and figuratively at home too. Both of our countries are founded on immigration. Both of our countries have citizens who have suffered through these issues. There is nothing wrong with protecting citizens from serious issues like hate. If that hate is posted on the web, it deserves to be treated the same way it would be treated if it was in print or face to face, in public.
    Last edited by ink; 08-25-2008 at 01:49 PM.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    btw, BB, here's an example of white supremacy at work from today's headlines. This white supremacist had to kill a "black man" to earn a tattoo. Tell the "black man's" family that it's a non-issue:
    White supremacist tattoo was motive for slaying

    PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (AP) -- A white supremacist convicted of conspiracy in the killing of a black man nearly 20 years ago has been sentenced in Philadelphia to more than a decade in prison.

    Thomas Gibison was sentenced to a term of 12 to 25 years in prison Monday for conspiracy to commit murder and weapons charges connected to the 1989 shooting death of Aaron Wood.

    A friend of Gibison testified they went to North Philadelphia to find a black man to kill so they could earn a white supremacist tattoo.

    The charges were filed after a former girlfriend tipped off federal agents.

    Gibison already was serving a 10-year sentence on weapons offenses when he was charged.
    Source: CNN

    It may have happened 20 years ago, but the courts still punished it hard today.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    248
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    btw, BB, here's an example of white supremacy at work from today's headlines. This white supremacist had to kill a "black man" to earn a tattoo. Tell the "black man's" family that it's a non-issue:


    Source: CNN

    It may have happened 20 years ago, but the courts still punished it hard today.
    Here is the problem with your point...murder is a crime, cut and dried. Whether the guy is black, white, purple, or green it is a crime and will be punished as such. Is your point that this is worse because the guy was black? If he were white, would it be OK? Of course not, and I know you don't mean that, but if you argue it is worse because he is black, the direct correlation is that you think it is a lesser crime if he was white.

    If I am sitting here at my desk hating black people, white people, left-handed people, people with bad breath, people with brown hair, people under 5'8", women, gays, movie actors, the Smurfs, whomever I am not committing a crime. I may be an ignorant douche, but I am not a criminal. If I decide to go out and kill left-handed people, then I am a murderer. I am not worse because I am targeting left-handed people. If I am publically encouraging others to murder left-handed people, then I am committing a crime. If I am just wishing them dead in my head, I am not.

    It is patently offensive to a group of people to contend that if a crime were committed against you, it would not be as bad as a crime committed against a person of a different race, creed, color, sexual orientation, etc. Can you imagine the uproar if public policy called for stiffer penalties for crimes against staright white males? Yet you are calling for exactly the same thing.

    As far as censorship goes, it would be nice if we could make some common sense judgements about what gets into the hands of children, and let adults fend for themselves. Unfortunately common sense just isn't that common.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    ^^ Exactly.

    And it's telling that the worst examples you can come up with are things that happened decades ago or things that happened in a foreign country.

    And please don't laugh at the irony, but I don't think it's Congress's job to tell the rest of the world how to deal with "hate."

    You can't make the world a "happy," "hate-free," or "nice" place through legislation.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    50,072
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    ^^ Exactly.

    And it's telling that the worst examples you can come up with are things that happened decades ago or things that happened in a foreign country.

    And please don't laugh at the irony, but I don't think it's Congress's job to tell the rest of the world how to deal with "hate."

    You can't make the world a "happy," "hate-free," or "nice" place through legislation.
    Nobody's saying that you can make a happy, hate free place. That's not the goal at all. But those that hate can be punished. And they are in most of the world, including the USA.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •