Health Care

[gcoll]

Save money or put a focus on preventative care?

I was thinking more along the lines of "preventative care"

You get to go to the doctor because you pay a couple pennies (on the dollar) out of your paycheck

But....both candidates are promising to lower taxes.

Yes, we have a few government programs. But, the reason they don't work all that well is because they're not run all that well. They're programs that are on the back burner. They don't get the attention they require to be productive.

More tax money goes to health care, than to the military. How is it being neglected?

I believe this is feasible.

I have a simple question. What about illegal immigrants? Do they get the benefit of this free health care? If so....isn't that unfair? And if not, aren't you going to have to turn people away from the hospitals?

But, health care is a basic human right, especially in the times we live in.

Yes, but so is food....and a great portion of the world is starving. And a majority of Americans have health care already....

So, if Iowa says yes to state run health care ... and Illinois says no, then do you see a transient population moving into Iowa to seek health care while the private industry in Illinois combats the lack of a consumer base by raising costs to make up the difference?

I do see a transient population moving into Iowa. I also see illegal immigrants moving out of Arizona, and on to California...even more than they are now. (I assume AZ will vote no)

I see the systems in the states that vote "yes" going bankrupt, and I am not sure what will happen to the "no" states.

And I eventually see the states that voted "yes" asking for a federal bail out.

Basically. I predict a lot more problems for the states that vote "yes"

[ari1013]

I'm pretty sure that Massachusetts has saved money since switching over, but I'll have to double check when I get some free time.

[SmthBluCitrus]

I was thinking more along the lines of "preventative care"

I don't remember if I made the case for preventative care before, but I'll make it briefly again.

Getting and keeping the nation healthy is cheaper than waiting for issues to arise and dealing with them then. Say, getting people to stop smoking (or keeping them from smoking -- without making it illegal) is more inexpensive than dealing with all the lung cancer patients down the road.

I don't feel like going into greater detail about that right now.

But....both candidates are promising to lower taxes.

Right, and neither candidate is advocating a completely universal health care system.

More tax money goes to health care, than to the military. How is it being neglected?

Wait, what? Care to show me numbers? Check out this (self-proclaimed) non-partisan 501(c) PAC ... http://www.sensibleiowans.org/ especially the budget analysis section. We spend well-more on the Pentagon than we do for health and human services.

Try this one, too ...

http://donklephant.com/2008/04/09/wh...ax-dollars-go/

I have a simple question. What about illegal immigrants? Do they get the benefit of this free health care? If so....isn't that unfair? And if not, aren't you going to have to turn people away from the hospitals?

Yes, but so is food....and a great portion of the world is starving. And a majority of Americans have health care already....

Agreed, but you just defeated your previous point. On the one hand, you claim that it is unfair to treat illegals with health care, but then you make the argument that food is a basic right so we should help with that. Or am I making a baseless claim?

And yes, I'm sure a fair amount of illegals will try to use the system. But, that's no reason not to pursue it. I was watching 'The Kingdom' the other day (that Jamie Foxx, Jennifer Garner, Chris Cooper movie about a terror attack in Saudi Arabia), and they said something along the lines of "We're FBI agents, we don't stop a case just because the bad guys might want to hurt us." Well, the same things goes with health care. We're not give our citizens the ability to have low cost health care per individual just because some illegals might use the system.

At what point does that stop? Don't fund public transit because illegals might ride. Stop funding for education because illegals might be in the system. Stop funding for etc because of illegals. That's a silly argument.

Completely aside, I think we should continue to make a great effort worldwide in staving off hunger. But, that's the humanitarian in me.

I do see a transient population moving into Iowa. I also see illegal immigrants moving out of Arizona, and on to California...even more than they are now. (I assume AZ will vote no)

I see the systems in the states that vote "yes" going bankrupt, and I am not sure what will happen to the "no" states.

And I eventually see the states that voted "yes" asking for a federal bail out.

Basically. I predict a lot more problems for the states that vote "yes"

I suppose that makes my point, too. You can't have it in some states and not in others. That kind of defeats the purpose of universal or national health care. This is an issue that's bigger than the states, it's about the entire populace of our citizenry. And, it's going to take a national investment.

[Raider_Vet]

Move to the USSR, raider vet. I believe in the success of the individual and free enterprise and work ethic. By creating a system of entitlement we hurt our nation as a whole

First of all I am a American citizen and don't have to move anywhere buddy. Believe me I have worked plenty hard and am now in the position I am in, it was never from a lack of work. Ask other countries if it has hurt them or not to have a national healthcare system. BTW HAVE YOU EVER LIVED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS? I'll answer that it's no. Ask England, Norway, Switzerland, France, Canada, Germany, and many other countries if it has hurt them. I have lived in Italy before and it's not hurting them and I have also done a great deal of traveling and have seen nothing but but the opposite of what you claim. Face it BB you are just greedy. You're bigger car, you're bigger home, you're fancy cloths to you are more important then others lives. You and like minded people are the problem with America. When it's a war you expect everyone to pitch in but when times are good you tell them to F-OFF. Hopefully someday you will be dethroned from you're greedy chair and and realize the lack of compasion you have in you're heart. The mentality you have makes me sick. And yes as a American I feel intitled to the same healthcare as others who can afford more then me. I don't put value on human lives unlike pigs that think like you.

[Randy West]

I'm pretty sure that Massachusetts has saved money since switching over, but I'll have to double check when I get some free time.

I know that plan was in the red initially

I am not sure if things have evened out yet or not

[blenderboy5]

First of all I am a American citizen and don't have to move anywhere buddy. Believe me I have worked plenty hard and am now in the position I am in, it was never from a lack of work.

Good for you. I love free enterprise.

BTW HAVE YOU EVER LIVED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS? I'll answer that it's no.

Actually it's a yes. But thanks for playing along. I've lived in Canada and England.

Face it BB you are just greedy. You're bigger car, you're bigger home, you're fancy cloths to you are more important then others lives.

Well sort of. I'd rather have a nice house than give every single psycho bum health insurance. (yes that was a joke I realize not every uninsured person is a crazy bum)

But after already striking out on the "how many foreign countries have you lived in" quesiton, it's best if you don't go calling people names and then typing the word incorrectly. "Your." Not "you're."

You and like minded people are the problem with America.

If I don't hear that from the left once a day I don't feel like I'm doing my job.

By the way, after name calling and getting the "foreign country" question wrong, maybe stop generalizing about my "type" of Americans.

When it's a war you expect everyone to pitch in but when times are good you tell them to F-OFF.

I don't think I've said that. Ever. I don't expect anyone to do anything really.

Hopefully someday you will be dethroned from you're greedy chair and and realize the lack of compasion you have in you're heart. The mentality you have makes me sick. And yes as a American I feel intitled to the same healthcare as others who can afford more then me. I don't put value on human lives unlike pigs that think like you.

Actually, your odd deranged rant kind of sickens me. You've done nothing but type gibberish accusing me of being some selfish person and, by your tone, makes me seem like I grind up poor people to fuel my Hummer.

You shouldn't feel entitled to better health insurance than you can afford. Technically, you shouldn't feel entitled to anything. But the feelings of entitlement are an actual problem with Americans.

And for the record, I'm a college student. I live in a small overcrowded dorm. I don't have a ton of money, and I certainly don't have some huge car. I do have nicer clothes. Yes. But I don't spend a ton of money on clothes. I'm insured through my mother's work but if the insurance coverage ended tomorrow I wouldn't seek insurance of my own. By choice.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped generalizing me. I'm not rich. I'm not a pig. I'm not selfish. Let's be honest. You don't like me because I don't support socialism or a lot of liberal social welfare programs.

I believe that the best way to help poorer people is to take away the system of entitlement. Things like welfare are terrible in the long run.

I don't know what your person socio-economical status is and I don't need to know. It's none of my business. But if you've sincerely worked hard and worked your way up the ladder, congrats. I mean that sincerely. But a bit less on the "burn rich people because I'm secretly jealous and I hate them" mentality, okay?

[ink]

I've benefitted from universal health care in three different countries where I went to school and worked - Canada, Norway and Germany. Worked just fine despite all the misinformation that gets circulated by private health care lobbyists in the USA. In fact, it's that misinformation that makes me realize how corrupt the private medical profession actually is.

A relative of mine just had hip replacement surgery. Got the diagnosis and surgery within a few months and is now able to walk and live a normal life again. If he hadn't had universal health care, a guy who spent the whole first part of his life being fit and active wouldn't have been able to afford this treatment. He would have spent the last ... oh ... 15-25 years of his life lying on a couch or a bed.

I know people won't listen to this post. What would I know. I only experienced it first hand in three successful situations.

[blenderboy5]

Fair enough, but there are certainly horror stories in universal health care. Now admittedly it's Canada. And I mean that in the nicest way. But I've heard and witnessed a lot of medical emergency room horror stories. Of course, I've seen the same in the US in fairness

[SmthBluCitrus]

I listened (read) ink. I'm a UHC supporter.

[Raider_Vet]

Good for you. I love free enterprise.



Actually it's a yes. But thanks for playing along. I've lived in Canada and England.



Well sort of. I'd rather have a nice house than give every single psycho bum health insurance. (yes that was a joke I realize not every uninsured person is a crazy bum)

But after already striking out on the "how many foreign countries have you lived in" quesiton, it's best if you don't go calling people names and then typing the word incorrectly. "Your." Not "you're."



If I don't hear that from the left once a day I don't feel like I'm doing my job.

By the way, after name calling and getting the "foreign country" question wrong, maybe stop generalizing about my "type" of Americans.



I don't think I've said that. Ever. I don't expect anyone to do anything really.



Actually, your odd deranged rant kind of sickens me. You've done nothing but type gibberish accusing me of being some selfish person and, by your tone, makes me seem like I grind up poor people to fuel my Hummer.

You shouldn't feel entitled to better health insurance than you can afford. Technically, you shouldn't feel entitled to anything. But the feelings of entitlement are an actual problem with Americans.

And for the record, I'm a college student. I live in a small overcrowded dorm. I don't have a ton of money, and I certainly don't have some huge car. I do have nicer clothes. Yes. But I don't spend a ton of money on clothes. I'm insured through my mother's work but if the insurance coverage ended tomorrow I wouldn't seek insurance of my own. By choice.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped generalizing me. I'm not rich. I'm not a pig. I'm not selfish. Let's be honest. You don't like me because I don't support socialism or a lot of liberal social welfare programs.

I believe that the best way to help poorer people is to take away the system of entitlement. Things like welfare are terrible in the long run.

I don't know what your person socio-economical status is and I don't need to know. It's none of my business. But if you've sincerely worked hard and worked your way up the ladder, congrats. I mean that sincerely. But a bit less on the "burn rich people because I'm secretly jealous and I hate them" mentality, okay?

Gee that is funny this is the first time I have ever heard you say you lived in another country (somehow I doubt you ever have). Also just because you are better written then me makes you no more correct on the issue's then anyone else. And no I don't like you because of the "ME, MYSELF, and I" mentality which you boldly state when it comes to healthcare. I am not jealous of anyone buddy, I just believe that you can't put a price on life like you. And yes you are selfish and all the other things you listed I called you. Also quit breast feeding on mommy and find you're own damm insurance. Very funny how you admitt she pay's for you're insurance but you tell me that one should only recive healthcare they can afford. Also answer me this, why should I and other tax payers have to pay for Gulf War vet's healthcare when I don't support the war? They get paid for being in the military, let them pay for their own injuries or people that only support the war. Oh and one other thing, entitlement is a trait you seem to posess as well with YOUR individual wealth mentality over the heath of the people of this nation. Don't try to just put me in that catagory when clearly you have that since of intitlement as well.

[blenderboy5]

1) I have lived in other countries. I really don't give a flying **** if you believe me.

2) I have never placed a price on life. But I'm not willing to pay for Fatso's stomach stapling or smoker's lung cancer.

3) Just out of curiosity, how would you know if I'm rich or a pig? While I don't know how much money you make, I imagine it's a bit more than a college student. If you're truly succesful in life. Even street peddlers make more money than a freshman in college.

4) Find my own damn insurance? Did you read what I wrote? I have no interest in acquiring health insurance. If the insurance I have now which I never use ended tomorrow I wouldn't look to get some insurance. I really wouldn't, as overpaying for a service I never use when money is already tight is not a priority for me.

[blenderboy5]

Also, you might not have known I lived in a foreign country because it's not something I talk about a lot. While I've mentioned it before on here, on the rare occaisons someone mentions Montreal, it's not something that frequently comes up in a us election forum.

And perhaps you're not jealous of people who are more successful in life. But you're certainly very hateful if not completely flaming.

[Raider_Vet]

1) I have lived in other countries. I really don't give a flying **** if you believe me.

2) I have never placed a price on life. But I'm not willing to pay for Fatso's stomach stapling or smoker's lung cancer.

3) Just out of curiosity, how would you know if I'm rich or a pig? While I don't know how much money you make, I imagine it's a bit more than a college student. If you're truly succesful in life. Even street peddlers make more money than a freshman in college.

4) Find my own damn insurance? Did you read what I wrote? I have no interest in acquiring health insurance. If the insurance I have now which I never use ended tomorrow I wouldn't look to get some insurance. I really wouldn't, as overpaying for a service I never use when money is already tight is not a priority for me.

1: Good because I think you are a liar trying to make yourself look wordly.

2: When you claim individual prosperity is more important then the health of the people of this nation you put a price on it.

3:I never said you were rich just a pig because of the way you think on this issue.

4: Fine then why be a burden on you're mommy and make her pay for YOUR healthcare insurance? Also I would have to LMAO if you did not have health insurance and something happend to you. See this is what I mean by you're vanity and being a pig, You think everything will be fine and won't get hurt if you did not have health insurance. And if something did happen to you when you did not have health insurance The American tax payers would be picking up the tab and you would not be complaining. We would see ral quickly id health care was a priorty if you were seriously injured.

[DenButsu]

I'm busy watching the convention right now. But the personal insults need to stop. Now. But if this turns into a full on flame war and I need to come back and give infractions retroactively, so be it. So please, cut it out.

This applies to everybody.

[ink]

I didn't read all the posts above, but for what it's worth, I do remember BB mentioning that he lived in Montreal before. So he probably does have some first hand experience with the health care system there.

That said, I have to point out that since the 70's when Quebec separatism really took hold of that province, there have been some tough economic times there - especially in the 70's and 80's when so many of the English population took their money to other provinces. They actually went into a negative birth rate situation because so many left. Health services dropped off pretty sharply, especially in public hospitals in Montreal. So, that is accurate. But it has to be noted that Quebec is an anomaly in Canada. They have autonomy over things like health care that no other province really has, and their services have actually suffered because of it. It's the compromise our confederation has had to make to stay together.

I've lived in Ontario and British Columbia and health care in those two provinces is pretty top level. But more to the point, some of the "have not" parts of the country also have very good health care, and that's completely attributable to the principle of universality that our medical system is based on. If a Canadian gets sick in Newfoundland or the Yukon, you will get just about the same level of care as you would in the rich provinces. And if specialists aren't there, you can be moved to a location where those specialists can be found. If we had only private health care, you wouldn't even be able to get basic care in every location.