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Thread: Health Care

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcityroller View Post
    Cool good read thanks. I was basically wanting to see what you and Ari had to say on the subject.
    I've been away for a bit -- got married

    Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, health care is just costing us way too much as a country. I'm not going to get into all the specifics about covering the uninsured, but my biggest beef is that health insurance is really what's behind the collapse of our manufacturing base.

    Take the automobile industry for example. US auto workers are paid relatively less than Japanese or European auto workers. HOWEVER, the labor costs in the US are much higher. The reason for that is the massive health expenditures that we force our employers to cover because we can't seem to get our act together. If the government could alleviate the burden on employers, it would immediately make our companies more competitive -- and thus we wouldn't be hemorraging jobs on a daily basis.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    Personally, I want to see a completely universal health care coverage. I personally believe that health care is a natural right. Everyone should have access to health care.

    Ok, so you get your coverage through work (this is where I make a political argument).

    The McCain plan works to dismantle employer-based health care. You then receive a tax credit of (up to) $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families and must go out and buy coverage individually. And, good luck getting as inexpensive a rate as you're receiving right now.

    Take a look at the overall costs, too.
    http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/pm126
    Right. McCain understands the economic implication but he has a very naive approach on how to fix it.

    I'm more for a single-payer approach system where we can collectively bargain as a single unit for a fixed health care rate. That keeps it private, yet affordable = the best of both worlds.*


    * except to insurance companies who stand to lose a lot of money.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    I've been away for a bit -- got married
    We've missed you. And congrats! Welcome to the club!
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    I've been away for a bit -- got married
    Congratulations, man.

    May you live out your days happily together.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    My issue with national healthcare, other than the previously mentioned "fatties/people who eat themselves into diabetes/people who drink their way out of a liver/people who smoke/etc" issue, deals with age. At my age, I rarely get sick. The age range I'm in, known by doctors as the "young invincibles," gets sick so rarely paying into a national health care system makes absolutely no sense. The last time I went to the doctor was for a physical for college, and other than the time I got my wisdom teeth out I can't even remember the last time I went to the doctor's. So for me, a program where no one could opt out would be ridiculous. Just my two cents.
    Whilst you might be paying for people older than you to get care, when you reach their age, the younger generation will be paying for you. It comes around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    Even though I am 100% against socialism and a national healthcare system... I will concede that I would not be completely against it so long as it was regulated.
    Thats an oxymoron

    What I mean by this is that each patient would be examined for past history of actions that could have lead to their condition and therefore they would be held accountable to the extent the government deemed fit.

    For example if a patient comes in with Lung cancer but has smoked for 40 years (like my grandfather who died of lung cancer) I believe they should have to pay out of pocket most of their costs verses someone who became ill due to circumstances beyond their control should pay little to no out of pocket cost.

    I realize this system could potentially have flaws but I feel both sides win in the end. I just do not feel that nationalized healthcare in a nation of this size would provide any better care in the end, we would have overpacked hospitals and overworked physicians. Plus one must realize that everyone will be given equal treatment no matter what the case is. Meaning somebody who did nothing to bring upon their illness but actually took good care of himself his whole life could be stuck on a waiting list behind a bunch of people who just flat out refused to take care of themselves knowing the potential consequences and I feel that is completely wrong.
    It doesnt work like that in life tho. Whyat if a fat lard *** who spends all day smoking crack and drinking whisky develops a condition, but hes also an oil barons son so no worries, hes acted against his self interest and brought this on himselve but he also has money so he doesnt really have worry about it.

    Then you have a low income father of 3 who works two jobs but is on some crappy policy that doesnt cover his preexisting condition, so cause he has nomoney he dies and that is it.

    I just want to maintain some form of accountability among people because at this point people are losing more and more of it as time goes on and as a society we need to learn that adapting to people's irresponsibility will only make things worse
    Sin tax. Works well enough in the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    Well wait a second now. If you are for complete universal health care then don't tell me I'm not going to pay for your family (as you did in a previous post). Thatís how insurance works. You get a big enough pool of people, to negate your individual specific risk and charge everyone the average. There will be people who need more coverage (more money spent on them) and people who need less coverage (less money spent on them) while everyone will pay the same (in taxes). So me as a single 26 year old with no health issues and hasn't seen a doctor in probably 3 years, will be paying the same as my father (who has MS) and has to go to a neurologist on a regular basis as well as to his family doctor on a weekly basis to receive shots. While, I obviously want my father to get the best care possible at an affordable price, I donít think itís fair that myself and him would be paying the same amount, and therefore I would be paying for his care because I would be using less than my share (cost of my health care vs. cost Iím paying in taxes).
    By the same standard, there are areas that need more police cars should take funds from the areas that dont, the family's that call the fire brigade more should paymore towards their wages.

  6. #36
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    This is my story...... I have always lived a healthy lifestyle. I was a wrestler for 17 years, worked out 5 days a week, ate right,and took my vitamins. Now I am 36 years old, had a transplant surgery once all ready and will most likely need another one in the future.

    I had insurance through my business I owned and my insurance told me my transplant was not needed because the organ that was failing did not have a certain failure percentage. 2 doctors agreed that It was prudent to do the transplant sooner rather then later because my body would react better to surgery while I was stronger. So sadly I had to declare bankruptcy, lost my business, home, and car and payed a percentage of the surgery required by the hospital before getting it. Now with the second transplant I need the insurance company is telling me the same thing that the organ has to have a certain failer rate before they will cover it. On top of it I had secondary insurance through my soon to be ex-wife's insurance but she switched insurance carriers who will not cover it either.

    Honestly I am lost for words from this point however I would like to say a few things. First I did not support the Iraq war, should I be forced to pay for vets who choose to join the military and fight in it? I say yes because it's the compassionate thing to do. For those of you who make the argument that you are healthy and why should you have to pay for others health needs I say this regardless of the choices they have made health wise I say this.... you never know when you might get sick or have injury that endangers you're life. Don't take you health for Granted because you NEVER KNOW when it might be compromised.

    Also you know you do pay for people who can't afford insurance weather you like it or not. Hospitals pass on the costs to the consumer through supplies and other means. How long are we going to let people live or die in this country based on money? I feel it's very selfish or people who value their material wants more then the health of their fellow Americans. Other countries have a system in place to prevent this why not America? Honestly I don't care if it's socialized or regulated but something drastic needs to be done to our health care system.

    Also please do not question me about my heath problems. I am a private man when it comes to this and somehow feel ashamed that I am in the financial position I am am due to this. I struggled back and forth if I should even write this. Sympathy is not what I look for by writing this either but just to maybe make those who think differently from me think a little more about heath-care in the U.S.A.

  7. #37
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    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus
    By having a national health system, we're saving money in the long run by insuring that we have a healthy working populace. We can engage in preventative care/medicine so we don't have to let people go un-cared for.
    How does a national health care system do this?


    My stance on the issue of health care is this. We already have government programs designed to take care of people who can not afford health care. They don't work all that well. What good does lumping more government bureaucracy on top of the issue do for us?

    "Everyone should have health care" is something I'd agree with. Ideally everyone would. But sometimes the ideal is not feasible.

    And the argument of "what if something bad happens to you....and you can't afford medical care" well. That would suck. But bad things happen. This is not a new phenomenon. That's not a reason to give the government more power though, and more of a role in people's everyday life.

    But my proposal would be this. Put it to a vote, state by state. The states that approve of it, can all be in the health care system together if they want. They can pool their resources on the matter. Come up with a 30 state plan. Let the 20 states who vote it down (just hypothetical numbers I made up) stay out of the national health care system.....and let's see how that works.

  9. #39
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    That's why I don't like national health care, or most welfare ideas. Or European socialism.

    I don't believe in equal outcomes. I believe in equal opportunities, but I'll settle for the closest to equal possible if it means still promoting individual success.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    That's why I don't like national health care, or most welfare ideas. Or European socialism.

    I don't believe in equal outcomes. I believe in equal opportunities, but I'll settle for the closest to equal possible if it means still promoting individual success.
    So greed is you're mantra? Individual sucess over the general health of a nation? You're true colors realy show BB and they are ugly.

  11. #41
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    So greed is you're mantra?
    It's actually freedom.

    It's that whole "liberty vs. equality" thing.

    Since when does "individual success" = greed? Since when are individual success, and the success of a nation, mutually exclusive?
    Last edited by gcoll; 08-23-2008 at 08:05 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider_Vet View Post
    So greed is you're mantra? Individual sucess over the general health of a nation? You're true colors realy show BB and they are ugly.
    Move to the USSR, raider vet. I believe in the success of the individual and free enterprise and work ethic. By creating a system of entitlement we hurt our nation as a whole
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Move to the USSR, raider vet. I believe in the success of the individual and free enterprise and work ethic. By creating a system of entitlement we hurt our nation as a whole
    This isnt the 80's, Russia is almost a world taxe haven. Low taxation and low regulation have created pretty much a free capitalistic market there in recent years. I suggest you move to Russia if you dont want the lazy people stealing your moneyfor roads and shiz.
    Last edited by NotVeryOriginal; 08-24-2008 at 05:02 PM.

  14. #44
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    Yeah I know it's not the 80s. And bud, the USSR's not around.

    But thanks for understanding what I wrote.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    How does a national health care system do this?
    How does a national health system do what? Save money or put a focus on preventative care? The two are coorelated to a degree.

    We save money because the hospital, state, and consumer doesn't have to pay for the rising costs of health care due to un/under-insured patients and others who just can't pay their bill. You get to go to the doctor because you pay a couple pennies (on the dollar) out of your paycheck. And, if you need prescription medication, you pay the $4 or $5 pharmacy charge for the medication -- that way the pharma industry is still getting money, so they are able to continue research in a semi-private way, so as not to be overly regulated.

    Granted, these are all incredibly vague terms and outlines. But, it's that sort of universal health care/national health system that I hope we can someday get to.

    There are other ways we save money/make money. One of those has to do with business. If businesses don't have to put money into their employees (generally about $12,000 per year per family right now), then they can turn that money and put it back into the business, possibly hiring more people -- which has positive effects on the market. More people working, more money to be spent, right? By "socializing" medical care (if that's what you want to call it) we actually free up the market for expansion in other ways.

    My stance on the issue of health care is this. We already have government programs designed to take care of people who can not afford health care. They don't work all that well. What good does lumping more government bureaucracy on top of the issue do for us?
    Yes, we have a few government programs. But, the reason they don't work all that well is because they're not run all that well. They're programs that are on the back burner. They don't get the attention they require to be productive. And, when the rest of the system is set up in an entirely different way (based upon private market insurance) then the government run programs for the poor are going to be looked upon ... well ... poorly.

    In a nhs, you're not just "lumping government bureaucracy on top of the issue." You're changing the entire set up of the way health care is run ... or at least paid for.

    "Everyone should have health care" is something I'd agree with. Ideally everyone would. But sometimes the ideal is not feasible.
    I believe this is feasible.

    And the argument of "what if something bad happens to you....and you can't afford medical care" well. That would suck. But bad things happen. This is not a new phenomenon. That's not a reason to give the government more power though, and more of a role in people's everyday life.
    No, as Forrest Gump said ... "**** happens." But, health care is a basic human right, especially in the times we live in. We have more advantages (in health care) than anybody has ever had before. We can do amazing things. Losing your job, or your business, or any number of things because you can't afford to go to the doctor is absolutely ridiculous. Not being able to start your own business and try to become successful and self-sustained (the American dream) because you can't afford to lose the health care benefit you receive from a major conglomerate corporation ... I just don't agree with that.

    But my proposal would be this. Put it to a vote, state by state. The states that approve of it, can all be in the health care system together if they want. They can pool their resources on the matter. Come up with a 30 state plan. Let the 20 states who vote it down (just hypothetical numbers I made up) stay out of the national health care system.....and let's see how that works.
    So, if Iowa says yes to state run health care ... and Illinois says no, then do you see a transient population moving into Iowa to seek health care while the private industry in Illinois combats the lack of a consumer base by raising costs to make up the difference? And, what happens if an Iowa resident is traveling through Ohio -- who also said "no." What do they do for care?
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