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Thread: Health Care

  1. #16
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    My issue with national healthcare, other than the previously mentioned "fatties/people who eat themselves into diabetes/people who drink their way out of a liver/people who smoke/etc" issue, deals with age. At my age, I rarely get sick. The age range I'm in, known by doctors as the "young invincibles," gets sick so rarely paying into a national health care system makes absolutely no sense. The last time I went to the doctor was for a physical for college, and other than the time I got my wisdom teeth out I can't even remember the last time I went to the doctor's. So for me, a program where no one could opt out would be ridiculous. Just my two cents.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

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  2. #17
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    Ok BB, but by the same token you could just as easily be driving down the street and some unforeseen accident (that's why they're called accidents) could could completely change your life. And, without the proper coverage, you're S.O.L. And, if you can't pay, it costs the hospitals a bundle.

    By having a national health system, we're saving money in the long run by insuring that we have a healthy working populace. We can engage in preventative care/medicine so we don't have to let people go un-cared for.
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  3. #18
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    Never going to happen with the millions being donated to politico's to keep healthcare private
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    Well, I'll admit that I haven't done a ton of reading on the health care plans of either candidates, as it is not a big issue for me at this time. DB, I didn't respond to you in the other forum, but I wish you the best with your health issues.

    One thing I would like to say and agree with Blender Boy, from the thread you linked DB, is that I don't think it is fair for the public to have to pay for everything for everyone. For example, I used to dip (chew tabacco). If I develop lip cancer or gum dissease, it's nobody's fault but mine (good Zepplin song) and don't think the tax payers should have to pay for it or for the alcoholics that need new livers or any other self inflicted condition. (DB, this isn't a direct response to your post as your condintion is of no fault of your own). Just my general thoughts on the health care subject.
    Thats completely understandable. Maybe there could be someway where self-inflicted injury-conditions fall under a different umbrella that way the majority isnt punished by the actions of a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    I think one thing people need to note is that the quote talked about how low to moderate income families were having problems with healthcare because they depleted their savings paying off debt... Therefore the way I see it the problem isn't people not having enough money for healthcare, its them willingly putting themselves in a position to not be able to afford it due to buying houses and cars they cannot afford
    Im sure you know exactly what situation every family in America is in right now. Times are tougher right now than they were a few years back and its harder in some places than others. I know here in Tennessee several huge plants have had massive layoffs within the last year. I worked at Dell in Nashville on the phones and was making around $40,000 a year. I got laid off along with about 500 other people and now Im making about half of that because there just arent any jobs unless you want to make less than $10/hour. Your probably gonna say why dont you go find another job. I have degrees and certifications to work on computers. Those other 500 people also had degrees and certifications to work on computers. When those layoffs happened you had 500 people with those skills looking for the same jobs and they just arent out there unless you want to move.

    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    Does Obama's plan cover illegals? I heard that it does, but have not seen evidence (admittedly, I haven't looked at eithers health care plan in much detail). Could someone let me know?
    Thats a good question. If thats the case then your likely gonna see even more illegals start coming into the country.

  5. #20
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    Even though I am 100% against socialism and a national healthcare system... I will concede that I would not be completely against it so long as it was regulated.

    What I mean by this is that each patient would be examined for past history of actions that could have lead to their condition and therefore they would be held accountable to the extent the government deemed fit.

    For example if a patient comes in with Lung cancer but has smoked for 40 years (like my grandfather who died of lung cancer) I believe they should have to pay out of pocket most of their costs verses someone who became ill due to circumstances beyond their control should pay little to no out of pocket cost.

    I realize this system could potentially have flaws but I feel both sides win in the end. I just do not feel that nationalized healthcare in a nation of this size would provide any better care in the end, we would have overpacked hospitals and overworked physicians. Plus one must realize that everyone will be given equal treatment no matter what the case is. Meaning somebody who did nothing to bring upon their illness but actually took good care of himself his whole life could be stuck on a waiting list behind a bunch of people who just flat out refused to take care of themselves knowing the potential consequences and I feel that is completely wrong.

    I just want to maintain some form of accountability among people because at this point people are losing more and more of it as time goes on and as a society we need to learn that adapting to people's irresponsibility will only make things worse

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcityroller View Post
    Thats completely understandable. Maybe there could be someway where self-inflicted injury-conditions fall under a different umbrella that way the majority isnt punished by the actions of a few.



    Im sure you know exactly what situation every family in America is in right now. Times are tougher right now than they were a few years back and its harder in some places than others. I know here in Tennessee several huge plants have had massive layoffs within the last year. I worked at Dell in Nashville on the phones and was making around $40,000 a year. I got laid off along with about 500 other people and now Im making about half of that because there just arent any jobs unless you want to make less than $10/hour. Your probably gonna say why dont you go find another job. I have degrees and certifications to work on computers. Those other 500 people also had degrees and certifications to work on computers. When those layoffs happened you had 500 people with those skills looking for the same jobs and they just arent out there unless you want to move.



    Thats a good question. If thats the case then your likely gonna see even more illegals start coming into the country.
    Oh trust me I completely understand where you are coming from, but that doesn't mean families should continue to live the same lifestyle and just ignore the fact that their income is no longer the same. If you'll remember correctly the reason for the great depression was due to the introduction and heavy use of credit during the roaring 20's.

    That is currently the same case with the housing market right now. People are buying houses and cars and other "luxeries" that they cannot afford on credit and loans and get to the point where they have no way of paying off their debt.

    I know this is an extreme case but I dated a girl a few years ago whose family always was buying new things like TVs and cars and computers along with season passes to six flags and such but when I asked her what her family was having for dinner she would generally say nothing or something simple like tortillas with butter because that was all they could afford. I always found that to be odd considering she would go clothes shopping every few weeks too. My point is numerous middle class families do have the funds to afford healthcare but choose to spend it on other luxeries.

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    That is currently the same case with the housing market right now. People are buying houses and cars and other "luxeries" that they cannot afford on credit and loans and get to the point where they have no way of paying off their debt.
    I'd love to see where you're finding the numbers to prove that people can't pay for healthcare because they're going out right now and buying houses they can't afford, meaning that they're somehow getting loan approval from the banks for a loan that they can't afford which in this market is nothing short of impossible.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    Ok BB, but by the same token you could just as easily be driving down the street and some unforeseen accident (that's why they're called accidents) could could completely change your life. And, without the proper coverage, you're S.O.L. And, if you can't pay, it costs the hospitals a bundle.

    By having a national health system, we're saving money in the long run by insuring that we have a healthy working populace. We can engage in preventative care/medicine so we don't have to let people go un-cared for.
    Who's the "we're" in we're saving money in the long run? The government? The taxpayers/health care customers?

    I agree with BB about his point about different people needing different levels of care. I'm 26, single, "healthy" (ok 15 lbs over wegiht, lol) and I don't need much coverage. I do have minimal insurance that is basically to cover what you mentioned, an unforseen accident. I think my plan costs like $500-$750 a year and has a big deductable and all that, but that's all I need, the "in case" coverage. As I get older, and acquire a family, I'm sure I'll be picking up more coverage but until then, I don't think I should be required to pay for your familes full coverage (no offense).

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    Who's the "we're" in we're saving money in the long run? The government? The taxpayers/health care customers?

    I agree with BB about his point about different people needing different levels of care. I'm 26, single, "healthy" (ok 15 lbs over wegiht, lol) and I don't need much coverage. I do have minimal insurance that is basically to cover what you mentioned, an unforseen accident. I think my plan costs like $500-$750 a year and has a big deductable and all that, but that's all I need, the "in case" coverage. As I get older, and acquire a family, I'm sure I'll be picking up more coverage but until then, I don't think I should be required to pay for your familes full coverage (no offense).
    The "we're" I'm talking about is us ... all of us; Joe and John taxpayer, the US Government, hospitals. Preventative health care and up-front insurance saves everybody money in the long run. An initial heavy investment up front will reduce costs later on. We will be able to streamline the system with enhanced electronic medical records accessible to every doctor/clinic/hospital throughout the country so that your records will be available at the touch of a button for anybody ultimately treating you so they know if you're allergic to tylenol (or whatever the case may be).

    Let me ask you this, do you get your coverage through your place of employment or is it something you went out and got on your own? I can't really make a comparison without knowing that.

    The fact is, you wouldn't be covering "my family." You'd be covering yourself. You'd ultimately probably end up paying less than you do right now, and your coverage would be greatly expanded. There would be no pre-existing injuries/diseases/conditions clauses. Everybody would be covered.

    People wouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt due to hospital bills because an inherited condition flared up and required emergency invasive surgery ... or got in a debilitating auto accident ... or whatever the case may be.

    Hope that helps to answer any questions.
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    The "we're" I'm talking about is us ... all of us; Joe and John taxpayer, the US Government, hospitals. Preventative health care and up-front insurance saves everybody money in the long run. An initial heavy investment up front will reduce costs later on. We will be able to streamline the system with enhanced electronic medical records accessible to every doctor/clinic/hospital throughout the country so that your records will be available at the touch of a button for anybody ultimately treating you so they know if you're allergic to tylenol (or whatever the case may be).

    Let me ask you this, do you get your coverage through your place of employment or is it something you went out and got on your own? I can't really make a comparison without knowing that.

    The fact is, you wouldn't be covering "my family." You'd be covering yourself. You'd ultimately probably end up paying less than you do right now, and your coverage would be greatly expanded. There would be no pre-existing injuries/diseases/conditions clauses. Everybody would be covered.

    People wouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt due to hospital bills because an inherited condition flared up and required emergency invasive surgery ... or got in a debilitating auto accident ... or whatever the case may be.

    Hope that helps to answer any questions.
    I get my health care through work.

    Are you talking about everyone chosing there own plan (from different plans with different costs and coverages) through the government or everyone is covered by the government period?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    I get my health care through work.

    Are you talking about everyone chosing there own plan (from different plans with different costs and coverages) through the government or everyone is covered by the government period?
    Personally, I want to see a completely universal health care coverage. I personally believe that health care is a natural right. Everyone should have access to health care.

    Ok, so you get your coverage through work (this is where I make a political argument).

    The McCain plan works to dismantle employer-based health care. You then receive a tax credit of (up to) $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families and must go out and buy coverage individually. And, good luck getting as inexpensive a rate as you're receiving right now.

    Take a look at the overall costs, too.
    http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/pm126
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubsGirl View Post
    I'd love to see where you're finding the numbers to prove that people can't pay for healthcare because they're going out right now and buying houses they can't afford, meaning that they're somehow getting loan approval from the banks for a loan that they can't afford which in this market is nothing short of impossible.
    wow intelligent post... all that to correct "right now" when I meant thats merely how I was explaining the housing crisis that is happening right now...

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    Personally, I want to see a completely universal health care coverage. I personally believe that health care is a natural right. Everyone should have access to health care.

    Ok, so you get your coverage through work (this is where I make a political argument).

    The McCain plan works to dismantle employer-based health care. You then receive a tax credit of (up to) $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families and must go out and buy coverage individually. And, good luck getting as inexpensive a rate as you're receiving right now.

    Take a look at the overall costs, too.
    http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/pm126
    Well wait a second now. If you are for complete universal health care then don't tell me I'm not going to pay for your family (as you did in a previous post). That’s how insurance works. You get a big enough pool of people, to negate your individual specific risk and charge everyone the average. There will be people who need more coverage (more money spent on them) and people who need less coverage (less money spent on them) while everyone will pay the same (in taxes). So me as a single 26 year old with no health issues and hasn't seen a doctor in probably 3 years, will be paying the same as my father (who has MS) and has to go to a neurologist on a regular basis as well as to his family doctor on a weekly basis to receive shots. While, I obviously want my father to get the best care possible at an affordable price, I don’t think it’s fair that myself and him would be paying the same amount, and therefore I would be paying for his care because I would be using less than my share (cost of my health care vs. cost I’m paying in taxes).
    Last edited by b1e9a8r5s; 08-22-2008 at 08:48 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    wow intelligent post... all that to correct "right now" when I meant thats merely how I was explaining the housing crisis that is happening right now...
    I'm not the one pulling numbers out of thin air. If you're going to make claims like that, I want to see numbers backing you up.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    Well wait a second now. If you are for complete universal health care then don't tell me I'm not going to pay for your family (as you did in a previous post). Thatís how insurance works. You get a big enough pool of people, to negate your individual specific risk and charge everyone the average. There will be people who need more coverage (more money spent on them) and people who need less coverage (less money spent on them) while everyone will pay the same (in taxes). So me as a single 26 year old with no health issues and hasn't seen a doctor in probably 3 years, will be paying the same as my father (who has MS) and has to go to a neurologist on a regular basis as well as to his family doctor on a weekly basis to receive shots. While, I obviously want my father to get the best care possible at an affordable price, I donít think itís fair that myself and him would be paying the same amount, and therefore I would be paying for his care because I would be using less than my share (cost of my health care vs. cost Iím paying in taxes).
    I am for completely universal health care, but neither of the candidates are advocating that sort of system. And, I think you're looking at it slightly skewed.

    You wouldn't be "paying for my family." You'd be taxed on your share for your part. You're single and I live in a family of four. It's not as though you're getting taxed five times -- once for yourself and four more for my family. And again, you may be 26 (now), but you won't be for long. You'd be securing your future health care as well so that when you do eventually need it, it's there.

    Plus, we're talking pennies on the earned dollar with a lot of the funding coming from the savings the hospitals make from a reformed system. And, there's still be the marginal co-pay for prescription medication.
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