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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Essentially yes. Which is one of the reasons we nuked Japan. Twice. Had we not, Japan would have faced a disaster like Germany faced, being split up between the capitalists and the communists. For administrations as chock full of communists as FDR's and Truman's were, it's great that it happened or we would have lost much more of Asia to communism (and sooner than we did).
    Totally ******* disgusting post. Shameful.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    too bad it's still left out of some of our children's history books just like the armenian genocides by the turks or the rape of nanjing by the japanese.
    1) It wasn't a bad idea from FDR's POV.

    2) Our textbooks are already anti-American lol

    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    Totally ******* disgusting post. Shameful.
    Sigh.

    The problem with PC **** is the whole "that's not nice. That's disgusting."

    Whatever.

    I truly don't hate Japanese people (there's only group of people I actually hate, and you can probably guess what they are. No, not liberals lol).

    But by looking at the big picture, and this might sound weird seeing as how close you are to Japanese culture (no that's not a bad thing), nuking Japan was seriously a win win situation. Seriously. It benefited us by saving our troops, and stopped Japan from being like Eastern Europe or Germany. Russia/Communism ****ed up Eastern Europe. By nuking Japan and stopping the spread of communism Japan is the great country it is today. It would have been great if we could have saved Japan and our troops a different way, but a land invasion would have included Stalin. I know a lot of Truman's administration worshipped Uncle Joe, but it's a damn good thing he didn't gain control of Japan.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

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  3. #48
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    blenderboy, your understanding of the history surrounding and leading up to the two atomic bomb attacks is just severely lacking. I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, but instead of trying to justify one of the worst atrocities committed in human history with false, misinformed geopolitical arguments, you should just admit that you don't really know what you're talking about on this one.

    It's shocking and saddening the extent to which the overriding myth that Hiroshima and Nagasaki led to Japan's surrender still prevails in the minds of most Americans even 63 years later. The American military and government was getting intelligence as early as January of 1945 that Japan was aware they were headed for defeat and that they were putting the feelers out for the best possible terms that might be negotiated for a surrender. The devastation of Tokyo a few months later in the intense U.S. firebombing of the city - in fact, attacks that resulted in killings, injuries and damage that far exceeded the atomic bomb attacks - was the real impetus for Japan's shift to an acceptance of surrendering. Out of pride, and out of fear that harm would be done to their Emperor, they were resistant to the term "unconditional surrender" that the U.S. was pushing for. But in fact, they were prepared to make a nearly unconditional surrender provided they get one condition only which was that the Emperor was untouchable. Truman was fully aware of this, as the military was by that time totally on top of all Japanese communication. The Japanese air force was obliterated. The navy was just about there as well. They hadn't had oil for months. The American airplanes were roaming the country, bombing at will. Japan was totally, completely broken, and ready to surrender - and surrender on the same terms that were finally negotiated after the nuclear bombs were detonated. And Truman knew all about it. They went for it anyways.

    And the idea that somehow this prevented the spread of communism in Asia is just absolutely preposterous. Japan was never in contention for Russia. Russia joined in the war effort against Japan very late in the game, and the largest role they could have possibly played in surrender negotiations prior to the atomic bombs being dropped would have been as mediator between America/Great Britain and Japan. They were in absolutely no position to demand anything, whether those nukes were dropped or not.

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki are scars on the American psyche that apparently can only be dealt with by creating a mythology of justification that makes us feel like somehow we did the right thing by nuking Japan. But that notion couldn't possibly be further from the truth.


    So don't try to dismiss my argument and artificially inflate your rationalization with **** like this:

    Sigh.

    The problem with PC **** is the whole "that's not nice. That's disgusting."

    Whatever.
    PC has nothing to do with it.

    For someone who's so worried about abortion, you sure place a pretty damn cheap value on human life, bb.
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  4. #49
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    I can wrap up in one smiley about how i feel about Russia.


    I'm not a guy who is all for peace, it would be great but.... why? They are like the 11th grade bully beating up on the 3rd grade kid. I just don't want the USA to be the older brother who tries to step in. They threaten with force, which is completely disgusting.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    blenderboy, your understanding of the history surrounding and leading up to the two atomic bomb attacks is just severely lacking. I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, but instead of trying to justify one of the worst atrocities committed in human history with false, misinformed geopolitical arguments, you should just admit that you don't really know what you're talking about on this one.

    It's shocking and saddening the extent to which the overriding myth that Hiroshima and Nagasaki led to Japan's surrender still prevails in the minds of most Americans even 63 years later. The American military and government was getting intelligence as early as January of 1945 that Japan was aware they were headed for defeat and that they were putting the feelers out for the best possible terms that might be negotiated for a surrender. The devastation of Tokyo a few months later in the intense U.S. firebombing of the city - in fact, attacks that resulted in killings, injuries and damage that far exceeded the atomic bomb attacks - was the real impetus for Japan's shift to an acceptance of surrendering. Out of pride, and out of fear that harm would be done to their Emperor, they were resistant to the term "unconditional surrender" that the U.S. was pushing for. But in fact, they were prepared to make a nearly unconditional surrender provided they get one condition only which was that the Emperor was untouchable. Truman was fully aware of this, as the military was by that time totally on top of all Japanese communication. The Japanese air force was obliterated. The navy was just about there as well. They hadn't had oil for months. The American airplanes were roaming the country, bombing at will. Japan was totally, completely broken, and ready to surrender - and surrender on the same terms that were finally negotiated after the nuclear bombs were detonated. And Truman knew all about it. They went for it anyways.

    And the idea that somehow this prevented the spread of communism in Asia is just absolutely preposterous. Japan was never in contention for Russia. Russia joined in the war effort against Japan very late in the game, and the largest role they could have possibly played in surrender negotiations prior to the atomic bombs being dropped would have been as mediator between America/Great Britain and Japan. They were in absolutely no position to demand anything, whether those nukes were dropped or not.

    Hiroshima and Nagasaki are scars on the American psyche that apparently can only be dealt with by creating a mythology of justification that makes us feel like somehow we did the right thing by nuking Japan. But that notion couldn't possibly be further from the truth.


    So don't try to dismiss my argument and artificially inflate your rationalization with **** like this:



    PC has nothing to do with it.

    For someone who's so worried about abortion, you sure place a pretty damn cheap value on human life, bb.
    You did not get to the real, real reason we dropped them. You arge well that startegically it was of less importance than people state, but you don't say why we did it.

    We did it to show the world we had them, they worked, they were devastating, and we were not afraid to use them.

    If you want to put a silver lining on it, the fact that this is the first and last time they were ever used even though there are gillions of them now speaks to the fact that once everyone saw what they could do, they knew they probably better not use them. If no one had ever set one off, the chances of the Cuban Missle Crisis or other tense parts of the Cold War touching off a full-on holocaust would have been much greater.

    Not justifying at all, just saying if one were looking for a positive, that is something one could take away from it.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastside Scott View Post
    You did not get to the real, real reason we dropped them. You arge well that startegically it was of less importance than people state, but you don't say why we did it.

    We did it to show the world we had them, they worked, they were devastating, and we were not afraid to use them.

    If you want to put a silver lining on it, the fact that this is the first and last time they were ever used even though there are gillions of them now speaks to the fact that once everyone saw what they could do, they knew they probably better not use them. If no one had ever set one off, the chances of the Cuban Missle Crisis or other tense parts of the Cold War touching off a full-on holocaust would have been much greater.

    Not justifying at all, just saying if one were looking for a positive, that is something one could take away from it.
    I do think the sentence I bolded is basically right. I didn't get into that because I mainly wanted to address the more dominant perception, which is that we had to use them in order to force Japan to surrender, which is totally false.

    And I'm glad you said the part I underlined to the effect that even if that is the case, it doesn't justify their use. Without even getting into the horrific damage that was done to life and property by those bombs, there is a flipside to the notion that "we were not afraid to use them", which is the very disturbing fact that we were willing to use them. In the eyes of the world, I think we more or less "got away with it" in terms of how history will contextualize it in the context of the holocaust and the expansion of the Japanese Empire - responsible itself, of course, for its own share of horrors. But it's one of the episodes in American history in which we erode the moral high ground under our own feet by demonstrating a tendency to stoop below standards we hold other countries to and generally claim to hold ourselves to as well. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the suspension of habeas corpus, the willingness to use torture as an interrogation technique - these are other, smaller and more recent examples of transgressions we have made against our own ideals and established codes of morality which not only serve to degrade our standing and legitimacy in the world as a country - THE country - which leads by example when it comes to justice and righteousness.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantsSBrepeat View Post
    There are oh so many things wrong with this post. First off, the world didnt start hating America after Bush became president (terrorists didnt say lets go fly planes into two bulidings a week after Bush became president). Also we have had missles in Poland for a while now bud, this isnt exactly breaking news under the Bush administration. Know your facts before posting.
    point out something that is wrong with it......

    many of the countries in the world disagree with this administrations policies. It has only added to hatred towards america in the form of european and asian countries not trusting his policies. IT is nowhere near the level of hatred of terrorists, but countries aren't lining up to back GW, sit down with him, or agree with him. I know my facts, try to make a point without the stereotypical islamic extremist crutch of an argument

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    point out something that is wrong with it......

    many of the countries in the world disagree with this administrations policies. It has only added to hatred towards america in the form of european and asian countries not trusting his policies. IT is nowhere near the level of hatred of terrorists, but countries aren't lining up to back GW, sit down with him, or agree with him. I know my facts, try to make a point without the stereotypical islamic extremist crutch of an argument
    I am guessing you are around ten years old since i basically disproved the two major parts of your post. What else would you like me to point out as wrong?

  9. #54
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    ah i totally forgot about guantanamo. another US internment camp. i wonder anyone died this time around. russians or chinese are next.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    I do think the sentence I bolded is basically right. I didn't get into that because I mainly wanted to address the more dominant perception, which is that we had to use them in order to force Japan to surrender, which is totally false.

    And I'm glad you said the part I underlined to the effect that even if that is the case, it doesn't justify their use. Without even getting into the horrific damage that was done to life and property by those bombs, there is a flipside to the notion that "we were not afraid to use them", which is the very disturbing fact that we were willing to use them. In the eyes of the world, I think we more or less "got away with it" in terms of how history will contextualize it in the context of the holocaust and the expansion of the Japanese Empire - responsible itself, of course, for its own share of horrors. But it's one of the episodes in American history in which we erode the moral high ground under our own feet by demonstrating a tendency to stoop below standards we hold other countries to and generally claim to hold ourselves to as well. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the suspension of habeas corpus, the willingness to use torture as an interrogation technique - these are other, smaller and more recent examples of transgressions we have made against our own ideals and established codes of morality which not only serve to degrade our standing and legitimacy in the world as a country - THE country - which leads by example when it comes to justice and righteousness.
    sorry amigo, that have little meaning to some.
    Last edited by WES445; 08-19-2008 at 04:27 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    sorry amigo, that have little meaning to some.
    Oh, I know. But it should.
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  12. #57
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    The U.S needs to start worrying more about Russia and less on Iran..Iran doesn't even have nuclear weapons yet and Russia does..russia is slowly becoming a huge problem again for the world.

  13. #58
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    Not really. Russia's population is dying out, their influence is building under Putin yes. And they will severely **** up eastern europe and the middle east for us. But long term, I'm more worried about the muslim world than Russia.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Not really. Russia's population is dying out, their influence is building under Putin yes. And they will severely **** up eastern europe and the middle east for us. But long term, I'm more worried about the muslim world than Russia.
    yes the middle east is a big issue that is coming into play but russia is right now.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    I do think the sentence I bolded is basically right. I didn't get into that because I mainly wanted to address the more dominant perception, which is that we had to use them in order to force Japan to surrender, which is totally false.

    And I'm glad you said the part I underlined to the effect that even if that is the case, it doesn't justify their use. Without even getting into the horrific damage that was done to life and property by those bombs, there is a flipside to the notion that "we were not afraid to use them", which is the very disturbing fact that we were willing to use them. In the eyes of the world, I think we more or less "got away with it" in terms of how history will contextualize it in the context of the holocaust and the expansion of the Japanese Empire - responsible itself, of course, for its own share of horrors. But it's one of the episodes in American history in which we erode the moral high ground under our own feet by demonstrating a tendency to stoop below standards we hold other countries to and generally claim to hold ourselves to as well. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the suspension of habeas corpus, the willingness to use torture as an interrogation technique - these are other, smaller and more recent examples of transgressions we have made against our own ideals and established codes of morality which not only serve to degrade our standing and legitimacy in the world as a country - THE country - which leads by example when it comes to justice and righteousness.
    The funny thing is that the scientists who took part in the Manhattan Project had concluded that there was a 7% chance that detonating one of the bombs would cause a chain reaction that would ignite all the hydrogen in the atmosphere around the world -- effectively destroying the world. But that was a small enough chance for Truman to give the "OK"
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