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  1. #16
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    i think the russian dude means if a huge war did break out between the us and russia that they would bomb the radar system, rightfully so. i dont think they meant they r gonna bomb it right now
    #ows

  2. #17
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    I hate to admit this, but I understand where Russia's coming from. Especially if you look at all the former KGB people in their government and all the people who remember the glory days of the USSR.

    Just imagine for a moment if California seceeded from the Union because they wanted to be free like they used to be. Then, Russia said "We'll protect you, California here's a defense shield." Would we like Russians having that kind of stuff on what used to be our country?
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  3. #18
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    Good observation BB.

    In essence I believe Russia is feeling the walls closing in, as it were. Since the end of the Cold War/Soviet break-up, the "Western World" has gotten closer and closer to Moscow. For a great deal of the 20th Century Moscow had a land buffer from Central and Western Europe and American influence. But, over the past decade-plus Western ideals have breached Mother Russia.

    To a nation as proud and vast as Russia is, that has to be defeating. Now, with the activity between Georgia and S. Ossetia Russia felt the need to: 1) defend it's "citizens" and "allies" in the breakaway Georgian province (citizens and allies in quotes because that is a debatable point) and, 2) exert Russia's military authority on the region.

    For the most part, they've tended to be viewed as an inferior military recently.

    Imagine the tables having been turned and Eastern Bloc idealism was spread throughout the world rather than Western style Democracy. Soviets annexed everything from Canada to Mexico ... why not even Israel. And, the United States and "freedom" felt boxed in and contained inside our own borders ... and even then, domestic sects of "commies" had begun to actually cry out for expansion within our borders ... and BB's California scenerio was actually real -- except annexed by Mexico, and Mexico was accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing of blond haired blue eyed hippie surfers. What do you think the United States response to that situation would be? I would imagine a military incursion onto Long Beach and the Santa Cruz boardwalk.

    Ok, that was fun ... I really just wanted to type all that out for no apparant reason. I didn't sleep much last night.
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  4. #19
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    The only missing detail is that no one yearns for oppressive Communist rule. Russia did not have a buffer that was there naturally. They just took over all of the land that was up for grabs after WW II because the US and UK are not expansionary.

    In your scenario, we would certainly feel the need to defend ourselves, but your scenario would never come to be because we would halt it long before that. Canada, Mexico, Israel, et al would not voluntarily move under Soviet rule, so we would have been mixing it up with them long before it was at our borders.

    The reason Russia is "threatened" is because the vast majority of the people in the former Soviet Union yearn for freedom and Democracy. It is only old-school leadership that yearns for the good old days of the USSR. Motivation is an important factor. Russia's motivation is opression and expansion, not general unease and defense

  5. #20
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    I understand that too Blender.. imagine if china wanted to put missiles in Tijuana...

    but i can see our point too that we need something in case Iran shoots a nuke headed towards Israel.

    this is one situation i really hope europe gets involved in and diplomacy can settle...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastside Scott View Post
    The only missing detail is that no one yearns for oppressive Communist rule. Russia did not have a buffer that was there naturally. They just took over all of the land that was up for grabs after WW II because the US and UK are not expansionary.
    Essentially yes. Which is one of the reasons we nuked Japan. Twice. Had we not, Japan would have faced a disaster like Germany faced, being split up between the capitalists and the communists. For administrations as chock full of communists as FDR's and Truman's were, it's great that it happened or we would have lost much more of Asia to communism (and sooner than we did).
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Fluty View Post
    I understand that too Blender.. imagine if china wanted to put missiles in Tijuana...

    but i can see our point too that we need something in case Iran shoots a nuke headed towards Israel.

    this is one situation i really hope europe gets involved in and diplomacy can settle...
    Yeah I definitely support our position on the topic. But I understand why the Russians, a once proud mighty people who are now dying out because of an incredibly low birth rate and other factors, act the way they do.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  8. #23
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    I see where you're coming from, but allow me to disagree.

    I would say that you're correct in areas. I think people would tend to prefer freedom and liberty (I know you said Democracy, but I think liberty is more to the point). But, those same vast majorities in the former Soviet Union, particularily those in Russia, don't necessarily understand what it means to be free.

    I would argue that many of them have looked at the past 15 years and have seen bad things that have happened as they tried to move from a communist society to one more prone to capitalism. And, although they've enjoyed some upward mobility recently, it wasn't until the iron-fisted KGB/secret society government rooted in pre-Berlin Wall ruthlessness came to fruition under Putin that they enjoyed "better times." (Speaking necessarily of Russia).


    Sure, the nations that sprang up following the fall of communism went the democracy route. But, there are all kinds of a democracy. And, there's a big difference between our liberal (small L) democracy and the illiberal democracy that came about over there. (I guide you to Fareed Zakaria's book "The Future of Freedom" -- if you haven't already read it).

    People, in general, are creatures of comfort. We are "used to" our freedoms, but Eastern Europeans and Central Asians haven't had, and don't enjoy, the same types of freedoms that we do. And, those that didn't have natural resources to rely on (i.e. Russia with natural gas and oil reserves that function under state authority) see the government with the ability to secure their countries economic future

    Anyhoo, I've wandered. Back to your point.

    No, the scenario never came to be ... nor would it likely ever happen. But, that wasn't the point. My point was that I believe Russia was getting to the point that they (the government) felt that the walls were coming in on them. The outside world and it's influences were creeping into the motherland, and those that they used to hold domain over now felt of them as an inferior power. That they need some lebensraum (to recycle a Nazi German phrase for European expansion).

    I wouldn't be surprised to see other Eastern European/former Soviet states fall back under the "control" of Moscow. Maybe not directly, but certainly through puppet governments. I think we'll see Chechnya's semi-independece revoked at some point in the near future and possibly see Kazakhstan aligning itself more with Moscow than it has in the past 17 years. True Democracy has never really taken hold there.
    Last edited by SmthBluCitrus; 08-15-2008 at 04:30 PM.
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  9. #24
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    I'm Polish, and if I need to go overseas to beat some Russian ***, I'll do it!



  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Essentially yes. Which is one of the reasons we nuked Japan. Twice. Had we not, Japan would have faced a disaster like Germany faced, being split up between the capitalists and the communists. For administrations as chock full of communists as FDR's and Truman's were, it's great that it happened or we would have lost much more of Asia to communism (and sooner than we did).
    heh all it cost were a couple of vaporized lives.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanian215 View Post
    heh all it cost were a couple of vaporized lives.
    Stalin alone kille 25 million of his own people.


    And addressing SBC's point: Agree with the creatures of comfort thing. Most Russians actually favor strong leaders and favor giving Putin/the puppet more authority
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Yeah I definitely support our position on the topic. But I understand why the Russians, a once proud mighty people who are now dying out because of an incredibly low birth rate and other factors, act the way they do.
    while their birth rates r wicked low, they r taking steps to fix that problem, but if anything russia is gaining strength and pride right now not losing it. the average salary of a russian citizen doubled under putin, russia is projected to become europe's second strongest economy in 5-10 years, they have a ton of oil and supply lots of europe, they have treaties and are close with India and China.

    i just hope that the US and other western nations dont keep brushing russia's opinions off because russia does have ties to iran and could ally with them. a Russian/Iran alliance would pose a threat to USA/Israel. and i dont want to see that as a USSR born russian citizen because i wanna see russia keep dominating/growing economically rather than with power and threats
    #ows

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin2007 View Post
    I'm Polish, and if I need to go overseas to beat some Russian ***, I'll do it!
    relax yourself
    #ows

  14. #29
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    [empty]
    Last edited by arkanian215; 08-15-2008 at 04:37 PM.

  15. #30
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    and you dont wanna end up in a concentration camp.

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