Best Pitcher of All-Time

[metsfan4ever]

are pedro and maddux comparable ?

[NJBASEBALL22]

This!

Terribly false

[metsfan4ever]

He is the only pitcher ever to win 15+ games in 17 straight seasons.*He was the first person in MLB history to win 4 straight Cy Young Awards (1992-1995) During that time he had a record of* 75-29 with a 1.98 ERA*Greg Maddux was awarded a record seventeen Gold Gloves.*In 94, Maddux posted an ERA of 1.56, the second lowest since Bob Gibson's historic 1.12 in 1968.*In 95, Maddux was 19-2 and posted the third-lowest ERA since Gibson's: 1.63. Maddux became the first pitcher to post back-to-back ERAs under 1.80 since Walter Johnson in 1918 (1.27) and 1919 (1.49); Johnson is the only other pitcher in history to do so. Maddux's 1.63 ERA came in a year when the overall league ERA was 4.23In September 2000, Maddux had a record streak of 39 1/3 scoreless innings.*In 2000 Maddux pitched 72 1/3 consecutive innings without giving up a walk.*..and he did it all during the steroid era

[flips333]

I'm gonna vote for Big Train. I would have voted for Clemens if steroids didn't matter.

Though honestly if I could have one pitcher from any era on my team. Bob Gibson. That man was terrifying.

[WOwolfOL]

Addie Joss

[SenorGato]

I'm gonna vote for Big Train. I would have voted for Clemens if steroids didn't matter.

Though honestly if I could have one pitcher from any era on my team. Bob Gibson. That man was terrifying.

Do they matter? How many pitchers on steroids were Clemens good?

[iam brett favre]

Aaron Small

[bagwell368]

Probably the only part of the post that needs to be addressed. I can't give you an arbitrary number, but it's hard to call someone the greatest pitcher of all time when so many of the guys in that conversation absolutely destroy him in innings pitched.

Are you factoring in for the era he pitched in? Probably the most difficult sustained era in baseball history for a pitcher to succeed in. Cy Young and his contemporaries were throwing D2 BP speed, and before 1894 did from 50'. Surely you can't talk about any of them.

Sutton threw a lot of innings, so did Ryan, Niekro, etc. and none of them had the sort of rate numbers Pedro did - not even close.

The only live ball guys that have a higher rWAR than Pedro are:

WJ +
Clemens
Alexander +
Grove
Seaver
Maddux
Johnson
Niekro
Blyleven
Perry
Spahn

+ by far most of their excellence were in the dead ball era, both did OK in the live ball time, but they were also declining too.

Pedro was fairly close to the group starting with Niekro down.

So while 5000 innings is intrinsically valuable (Carlton 5217) at a very solid 115 ERA+ isn't as valuable as Pedro's 2827. Pick your poison.

IMO, only the pitchers on the list from RJ up are clearly better than Pedro on a career basis and none has his 1850 inning peak - nobody is even in the same zip code.

[bagwell368]

He is the only pitcher ever to win 15+ games in 17 straight seasons.*He was the first person in MLB history to win 4 straight Cy Young Awards (1992-1995) During that time he had a record of* 75-29 with a 1.98 ERA*Greg Maddux was awarded a record seventeen Gold Gloves.*In 94, Maddux posted an ERA of 1.56, the second lowest since Bob Gibson's historic 1.12 in 1968.*In 95, Maddux was 19-2 and posted the third-lowest ERA since Gibson's: 1.63. Maddux became the first pitcher to post back-to-back ERAs under 1.80 since Walter Johnson in 1918 (1.27) and 1919 (1.49); Johnson is the only other pitcher in history to do so. Maddux's 1.63 ERA came in a year when the overall league ERA was 4.23In September 2000, Maddux had a record streak of 39 1/3 scoreless innings.*In 2000 Maddux pitched 72 1/3 consecutive innings without giving up a walk.*..and he did it all during the steroid era

Those gold gloves are a fraud in a number of cases.

I saw him pitch live twice and I never saw a bigger strike zone in my life outside of pre 1970 MLB.

Great pitcher, but he's not better then Clemens, WJ, Alexander, Seaver or Grove. IF you rate peak and career as equally important, Pedro has an argument vs Maddux as well.

[bagwell368]

A stupid comparison, since Maddux actually stayed healthy to have a prolonged decline phase. A better comp would be Maddux 88-99 (staggering that he exceeded Pedro's career of innings pitched total in just 12 years). Here, he falls about 10 WAR short, but the number is more like 87% as valuable. Nobody is denying Pedro had the best peak, but it's not nearly by as much as you'd like to claim.

That's true, but Pedro still has him by no small margin. If we take your figure of ~87% as valuable on the peak - on the full career basis, Pedro is 83.1% as valuable as Maddux, looks mighty close.

[SenorGato]

Are you factoring in for the era he pitched in? Probably the most difficult sustained era in baseball history for a pitcher to succeed in. Cy Young and his contemporaries were throwing D2 BP speed, and before 1894 did from 50'. Surely you can't talk about any of them.

Yes, as Clemens, Maddux, RJ...remember? They're all on that list of guys with more WAR and IP after the modern era!

So while 5000 innings is intrinsically valuable (Carlton 5217) at a very solid 115 ERA+ isn't as valuable as Pedro's 2827. Pick your poison.

Pedro is in that tier of the elite of the elite, where Carlton is not.

5000+ innings at 132 ERA+ for Maddux.

4200 at 135 is there, particularly since the peaks include 2 10 WAR seasons, and 8 in total over 7 WAR (Pedro at 5 in the same period of time).

5000 at 143 for Clemens.

[bagwell368]

Yes, as Clemens, Maddux, RJ...remember? They're all on that list of guys with more WAR and IP after the modern era!



Pedro is in that tier of the elite of the elite, where Carlton is not.

5000+ innings at 132 ERA+ for Maddux.

4200 at 135 is there, particularly since the peaks include 2 10 WAR seasons, and 8 in total over 7 WAR (Pedro at 5 in the same period of time).

5000 at 143 for Clemens.

I know the numbers, and I'm not even sure what you are objecting to in terms of what I have written in this very thread.

Career - Pedro is not #1
Peak - Pedro is #1
Career + Peak - Pedro is not #1.

Maddux was a NL pitcher, with no DH, and lesser line-ups up and down the league. His ERA+ numbers need to be adjusted when talking about Randy, Clemens, and Pedro. Maddux had a 3.88 ERA vs AL teams in 288 innings. Compared to 3.13 in the NL. Usually in that time .45 was the difference between AL and NL, but this is .75. Interesting.

[SenorGato]

I would never argue Maddux over Clemens or probably even Johnson.

We're agreed on Pedro, though I could probably come up with something on Clemens at peak too. Just for fun...From '86-'97 Clemens put up 5 seasons at 8 WAR or more, better than Pedro's whole career. He put up two 10 WAR seasons, the same as Pedro. Crazier still is that as cartoonish as Pedro's 2000 was, Clemens' 1997 stacks right with it and comes with almost 50 more innings. I used to think people were crazy when they mentioned anyone but Pedro for peak, but I'm starting to think more and more that Clemens should have the triple crown of career, peak, and career + peak. Sucks balls that Clemens and Bonds have probably have dang close to zero shot of being appreciated for what they are during the rest of their remaining lives.

[bagwell368]

All juice talk aside, given the length of Clemens career and his excellence, and the difficulty factor of his era above earlier ones I can't see any argument that results in Clemens being anything but #1 all time.

How lucky am I? Sox fan that got to see Tiants, Clemens', and Pedros entire Sox career who was a pitcher and a pitching coach and father of two 2 way players? Yes, I've been blessed.

If I had to pick 5 SP's at peak to be on a team in 2013?

Gotta be:

Clemens
Maddux
Randy
Halladay
Pedro

Mix up the fire ballers with the control guys, and give Pedro a few less starts in the #5 slot? That rotation could have a bunch of replacement hitters and fielders and an average pen, and still win it all.

[mike44]

I know the numbers, and I'm not even sure what you are objecting to in terms of what I have written in this very thread.

Career - Pedro is not #1
Peak - Pedro is #1
Career + Peak - Pedro is not #1.

Maddux was a NL pitcher, with no DH, and lesser line-ups up and down the league. His ERA+ numbers need to be adjusted when talking about Randy, Clemens, and Pedro. Maddux had a 3.88 ERA vs AL teams in 288 innings. Compared to 3.13 in the NL. Usually in that time .45 was the difference between AL and NL, but this is .75. Interesting.

You also have to take into account that interleague play started in '97 when Maddux was already 31, imo the last year of his prime was '98, and he was great in '97 and '98 in interleague play. The only times the AL saw him at his absolute best was in the '95 WS, where he faced the Indians with a lineup consisting of Lofton, Belle, Ramirez and Thome and absolutely dominated them, and in the '96 WS against the Yankees, where he did great as well. He was in his decline for most of his interleague appearances.