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View Poll Results: Best Pitcher of All-Time

Voters
188. You may not vote on this poll
  • Nolan Ryan

    31 16.49%
  • Walter Johnson

    27 14.36%
  • Cy Young

    18 9.57%
  • Greg Maddux

    17 9.04%
  • Roger Clemens

    8 4.26%
  • Bob Gibson

    6 3.19%
  • Randy Johnson

    12 6.38%
  • Sandy Kofax

    33 17.55%
  • Tom Glavine

    2 1.06%
  • Warren Spahn

    1 0.53%
  • Steve Carlton

    2 1.06%
  • Pedro Martinez

    22 11.70%
  • Gover Clever Alexander

    1 0.53%
  • Christy Matthewson

    1 0.53%
  • Other

    7 3.72%
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Results 136 to 150 of 180
  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    About 4-5 times this has been noted in the thread. Clearly the case.
    Didn't read it, just looked at the poll. Glad other people mentioned it.

  2. #137
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    I voted for Pedro

    Coming soon to a TKRO stadium near you

  3. #138
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    All this talk of Pedro Martinez's peak as the best of all time that too many ignore the longer peaks of Clemens, Johnson, and Maddux from his era alone....

    Pedro's 2000 is probably the greatest individual pitching season of all time, but those guys peaked for almost a decade a piece with some ridiculous numbers of their own.

    Glad to see RJ got 9 votes, I didn't think so many would vote for him. Stunned Clemens has only gotten 6.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    All this talk of Pedro Martinez's peak as the best of all time that too many ignore the longer peaks of Clemens, Johnson, and Maddux from his era alone....

    Pedro's 2000 is probably the greatest individual pitching season of all time, but those guys peaked for almost a decade a piece with some ridiculous numbers of their own.

    Glad to see RJ got 9 votes, I didn't think so many would vote for him. Stunned Clemens has only gotten 6.
    1999, not 2000

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    1999, not 2000
    2000 was probably better than 99

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    All this talk of Pedro Martinez's peak as the best of all time that too many ignore the longer peaks of Clemens, Johnson, and Maddux from his era alone....

    Pedro's 2000 is probably the greatest individual pitching season of all time, but those guys peaked for almost a decade a piece with some ridiculous numbers of their own.

    Glad to see RJ got 9 votes, I didn't think so many would vote for him. Stunned Clemens has only gotten 6.
    Pedro's peak wasn't 1 or 2 years, it was 9 years. Almost as long as Maddux, and longer than Johnson, because Johnson periodically had a crappy year mixed into his peak period.

    Clemens doesn't get a lot of votes due to PEDS.

    From 1997-2005 inclusive no other pitcher in the history of the game comes close to what Pedro did in terms of rate stats. In terms of peak innings/total value he has challengers, and the 9 years total at the start and end of his career was meh. Ending up 16th on the rWAR list all time and 10th in the live ball era essentially off of 9 years in pretty spectacular .

    Maddux? If you factor Maddux's 5008 innings vs Pedro's 2871 by rWAR, we find that per inning Massux was only 70% as valuable as Pedro. Think about that. #8 all time and #4 live ball, and he's at the feet of Pedro peak to peak. That's why people talk about Pedro, and that's why peak wise Pedro has no real comp.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 12-30-2012 at 03:11 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    1999, not 2000
    Either one is in the tippy top tier.

  8. #143
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    Pedro's peak wasn't 1 or 2 years, it was 9 years. Almost as long as Maddux, and longer than Johnson, because Johnson periodically had a crappy year mixed into his peak period.
    Sure.

    Clemens doesn't get a lot of votes due to PEDS.
    One of my least favorite aspects of the witch hunt is that the great ones are most penalized. The majority of hitters he faced were also on PEDs if we go by what players have said. Not to mention the pitchers...

    From 1997-2005 inclusive no other pitcher in the history of the game comes close to what Pedro did in terms of rate stats. In terms of peak innings/total value he has challengers, and the 9 years total at the start and end of his career was meh. Ending up 16th on the rWAR list all time and 10th in the live ball era essentially off of 9 years in pretty spectacular .
    I value innings at least as much as I value rates, if not more. The ability to eat more innings than other pitchers is an increasingly rare, and

    Don't disagree on the per inning basis, but unfortunately there's immense value in being able to eat innings to the level these guys ate innings.

    Maddux? If you factor Maddux's 5008 innings vs Pedro's 2871 by rWAR, we find that per inning Massux was only 70% as valuable as Pedro. Think about that. #8 all time and #4 live ball, and he's at the feet of Pedro peak to peak. That's why people talk about Pedro, and that's why peak wise Pedro has no real comp.
    Somewhat of a big deal/gap, no? Maddux is ~740 innings away from almost *doubling* Pedro's career innings pitching, most at an elite level of pitching. Hell, RJ's PEAK years from 29-41 are all of 100 innings off from Pedro's *career* innings pitched...though that does include his '03 and '06 where he pitched less than 180 innings combined.

    I get why people talk about Pedro. He's probably the dirtiest pitcher I ever saw with that changeup and just...**** everything...but someone has to play devil's advocate on the parroting of him as the unquestionably greatest peak. His pinnacle seasons are better than anything everyone but Clemens put up, but the more I look at what his contemporaries did the more I appreciate them.

    The statement basically should be edited to "Pedro Martinez owns the greatest peak in MLB history on a per-innings basis." I wouldn't argue that for a second...well maybe..I mean there's Clemens...
    Last edited by SenorGato; 12-30-2012 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    I value innings at least as much as I value rates, if not more. The ability to eat more innings than other pitchers is an increasingly rare
    Sure that's why guys like Clemens and WJ are so much more valuable than Pedro.

    Don't disagree on the per inning basis, but unfortunately there's immense value in being able to eat innings to the level these guys ate innings.
    I qualified what I said by saying "rate" not value.

    Somewhat of a big deal/gap, no? Maddux is ~740 innings away from almost *doubling* Pedro's career innings pitching, most at an elite level of pitching. Hell, RJ's PEAK years from 29-41 are all of 100 innings off from Pedro's *career* innings pitched...though that does include his '03 and '06 where he pitched less than 180 innings combined.
    How many innings is enough? Pedro sits at 161st all time in innings. Toss out dead ball guys and it's probably about 1/2 of that. Pedro finished 6 times in the top 10 for innings.

    The statement basically should be edited to "Pedro Martinez owns the greatest peak in MLB history on a per-innings basis." I wouldn't argue that for a second...well maybe..I mean there's Clemens...
    That's the way I usually phrase it, but I'm glad I didn't because I enjoyed your post.

    Pedro has 5 (2, 9, 17, 27, 34) of the top 34 ERA+ seasons in history.
    Clemens has 3 (14, 15, 26)

    As a Red Sox fan I got to see Tiant, Clemens, and Pedro up close. Seaver, Koufax, Chance, Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, Cone, and a bunch of others less frequently, and I never expect to see the equal of Pedro or Clemens again.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #145
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    The Big Unit. Not only for his pitching but for the hot dog named after him.

  11. #146
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    How many innings is enough? Pedro sits at 161st all time in innings. Toss out dead ball guys and it's probably about 1/2 of that. Pedro finished 6 times in the top 10 for innings.
    Probably the only part of the post that needs to be addressed. I can't give you an arbitrary number, but it's hard to call someone the greatest pitcher of all time when so many of the guys in that conversation absolutely destroy him in innings pitched.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Maddux? If you factor Maddux's 5008 innings vs Pedro's 2871 by rWAR, we find that per inning Massux was only 70% as valuable as Pedro. Think about that. #8 all time and #4 live ball, and he's at the feet of Pedro peak to peak. That's why people talk about Pedro, and that's why peak wise Pedro has no real comp.
    A stupid comparison, since Maddux actually stayed healthy to have a prolonged decline phase. A better comp would be Maddux 88-99 (staggering that he exceeded Pedro's career of innings pitched total in just 12 years). Here, he falls about 10 WAR short, but the number is more like 87% as valuable. Nobody is denying Pedro had the best peak, but it's not nearly by as much as you'd like to claim.

  13. #148
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    Top, no order
    Walter Johnson
    Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Pedro
    Seaver

    With clemens just on the outside

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by philab View Post
    There are 21 votes for Nolan Ryan!?!?

    He shouldn't even be on the poll. Under no circumstances is he even top 20 of all-time and EVERY baseball analyst would agree.


    I always go with Walter Johnson here. Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Maddux, R. Johnson, and Seaver are others I'd put up there.

    Clemens is gone for me. Not so much the simple fact that he 'roided, but the fact that a significant portion of his stats (especially the "impressive" ones) came from years where he was likely using -- about 1996 on, IMO. Without steroids, I just don't think he holds a candle to the best ever (unlike Bonds, who may very likely have been top 5 even without them, but I digress).

    For peak, Pedro, Koufax, and Gibson deserve mention.
    No offense, but you should really take a look at clemens again. He did have maybe 2-3 of his best years while roiding, but from 86-92 was certainly when he was at his best for an extended period. Only one season(89, 6 war) with a war under 8, led tye league in war over that time with 59.8(next closest was frank viola and ryan at 35.8, 10th in era(no one In front of him threw more than 523 inn, mussina was the only starter and had 44 starts), 7th in fip(again all reliever in front of him), 6th in k/9 amongst starters, 4th if you use 1000 inn min) and his bb/9 wasnt ranked real high, but he had a much better bb/9 then any of the guys ahead of him in k/9.

    Roids certainly taint his legacy, but he was one of the best without them.

  15. #150
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    but koufax also suffers from the same that pedro does, that he didnt do it very long... except koufax retired, pedro broke down. but koufax led the league in era for 5 straight years and then retired. he dominated. 3 cy youngs, 1 mvp, and 2 2nd place mvp finishes in 4 years

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