Best Pitcher of All-Time

[flea]

I know the numbers, and I'm not even sure what you are objecting to in terms of what I have written in this very thread.

Career - Pedro is not #1
Peak - Pedro is #1
Career + Peak - Pedro is not #1.

Maddux was a NL pitcher, with no DH, and lesser line-ups up and down the league. His ERA+ numbers need to be adjusted when talking about Randy, Clemens, and Pedro. Maddux had a 3.88 ERA vs AL teams in 288 innings. Compared to 3.13 in the NL. Usually in that time .45 was the difference between AL and NL, but this is .75. Interesting.

Another stupid comparison. Maddux's ERA since 1997 (when interleague play began) is 3.42. He didn't play the majority of his peak against AL teams. If you want to put so much weight on less than 300 innings at the back of his career you should also consider his (albeit small) World Series ERA of 2.09. Additionally, the NL was the better league in the late 90s and it was roughly equal until about 2004-2005.

[bagwell368]

the NL was the better league in the late 90s and it was roughly equal until about 2004-2005.

Where did you get this data/opinion?

[flea]

The interleague play records are pretty even until 2005. The AL was dominated by the Yankees in the late 90s who, while great, were also boosted by the fact that the competition was relatively weak.

[Fired-Up]

Pedro Martinez was the best I've ever seen. This guy could literally locate an 11-5 curve where he wanted. It was freaky. His location was as good as Greg Maddux or at least close to it.

At one point Pedro had the best fastball, change and curve in the game and it wasn't close. It was just ridiculous watching it.

[Jeffy25]

It really speaks of the intelligence of PSD that Koufax and Ryan are winning this by a good amount.

[SenorGato]

Koufax is spelled wrong.

[bagwell368]

It really speaks of the intelligence of PSD that Koufax and Ryan are winning this by a good amount.

The bulk of the voting was several years ago. I bet if the poll was done again (adding in critical missing names and leaving out a couple of the guys with no business in it, the results would be better). I mean come on - Lefty Grove and Tom Seaver are obviously better than at least 7 of the names on the list.

Also one could consider breaking it into two polls split around 1925, and allowing more than one vote - say 3 per poll for top 3 pitchers.

[bagwell368]

Pedro Martinez was the best I've ever seen. This guy could literally locate an 11-5 curve where he wanted. It was freaky. His location was as good as Greg Maddux or at least close to it.

At one point Pedro had the best fastball, change and curve in the game and it wasn't close. It was just ridiculous watching it.

Well, I'm as big a Pedro fan as there is, and he never had the #1 in all 3 pitches. However, no pitcher I am aware of had such command of three pitches from all of his arm slots, with the same arm velocity to match. Fierce competitor. Bob Gibson was supposed to be one of the games great head hunters (which he was, but Pedro hit a lot more guys per IP than Gibby).

[Pinstripe power]

ra dickey

[Jeffy25]

The bulk of the voting was several years ago. I bet if the poll was done again (adding in critical missing names and leaving out a couple of the guys with no business in it, the results would be better). I mean come on - Lefty Grove and Tom Seaver are obviously better than at least 7 of the names on the list.

Also one could consider breaking it into two polls split around 1925, and allowing more than one vote - say 3 per poll for top 3 pitchers.

Ryan and Koufax still got several votes since this thread was bumped.

And I know Ryan got at least 3.

[bagwell368]

Ryan and Koufax still got several votes since this thread was bumped.

And I know Ryan got at least 3.

Funny, I've been plotting a new list with 15 names on it, with some stats listed with them. I think it would be better to exclude all the 100% dead ballers (WJ and Alexander in) since the game was so different then and the raw stats so ridiculous.

Also I think allowing for users to pick their top 3 picks would give a more realistic curve.

Now if Koufax and Ryan finish in the top 3, then yes, you are right, the people voting collectively are voting based on reputation.

[Jeffy25]

Funny, I've been plotting a new list with 15 names on it, with some stats listed with them. I think it would be better to exclude all the 100% dead ballers (WJ and Alexander in) since the game was so different then and the raw stats so ridiculous.

Also I think allowing for users to pick their top 3 picks would give a more realistic curve.

Now if Koufax and Ryan finish in the top 3, then yes, you are right, the people voting collectively are voting based on reputation.

Agreed, and I'd like that.


I personally think stats prior to 1901 should just be thrown out honestly.

As for prior to 1920? For pitchers, probably.

[bagwell368]

Agreed, and I'd like that.


I personally think stats prior to 1901 should just be thrown out honestly.

As for prior to 1920? For pitchers, probably.

When I was a kid most of the publications had 1901 and up. Before 1894 it gets even sillier with the 50' pitching distance.

The other give away is the list of most innings pitched per season. #1 680 innings in a 90 game season. Think the game was a bit different?

[LordJohn]

1.Sandy Koufax (on peak value alone)
2.Walter Johnson
3.Roger Clemens
4.Lefty Grove
5.Nolan Ryan (on longevity alone)

[bagwell368]

1.Sandy Koufax (on peak value alone)
2.Walter Johnson
3.Roger Clemens
4.Lefty Grove
5.Nolan Ryan (on longevity alone)

Ummm.... Pedro's peak value smashes Koufax, Pedro's career value smashes Koufax. Koufax pitched the 2nd half (and great) part of his career in probably the easiest env for a SP to work in since at least 1920 - low runs in general and in a killer pitchers park. I'm one of the few here that saw him, and I thought he was the greatest I had seen, but then Gibson, Seaver, Pedro, Clemens, Randy, Maddux came along and buried Koufax - in much tougher times to pitch in (not inc Gibson).

Other better pitcher threw more innings than Ryan. A good twenty pitchers who threw less IP than Ryan were easily better, even in less innings.