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View Poll Results: Best Pitcher of All-Time

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  • Nolan Ryan

    31 16.49%
  • Walter Johnson

    27 14.36%
  • Cy Young

    18 9.57%
  • Greg Maddux

    17 9.04%
  • Roger Clemens

    8 4.26%
  • Bob Gibson

    6 3.19%
  • Randy Johnson

    12 6.38%
  • Sandy Kofax

    33 17.55%
  • Tom Glavine

    2 1.06%
  • Warren Spahn

    1 0.53%
  • Steve Carlton

    2 1.06%
  • Pedro Martinez

    22 11.70%
  • Gover Clever Alexander

    1 0.53%
  • Christy Matthewson

    1 0.53%
  • Other

    7 3.72%
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Results 121 to 135 of 180
  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    1 out of 3 is a real candidate, the other 2, no way. Make sure you remove Young's ~105 wins from when he threw from 50', and discount (heavily) two of his best seasons when the AL was inferior to the NL.

    Ryan is pathetic as the #1.

    ShoelessJoe:

    No doubt that that Alexander is top drawer historically.
    There may have been different rules back then, but it was still baseball.
    What if a player from back then just decided than none of these performances should count because its from ~60ft out?
    He is the career leader in br WAR for pitchers. By alot.
    Personally I put alot of stock in peak value rather than longevity, but a case can certainly be made for Young.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by cambovenzi View Post
    There may have been different rules back then, but it was still baseball.
    What if a player from back then just decided than none of these performances should count because its from ~60ft out?
    He is the career leader in br WAR for pitchers. By alot.
    Personally I put alot of stock in peak value rather than longevity, but a case can certainly be made for Young.
    When I was growing up you couldn't even get stats before 1901 because the game was considered irregular and inferior to what came later.

    Cy Young is the leader in WAR because he was able to first throw from 50' and then throw in the 80-85 MPH range, which extended longevity by a ton. His top 3 IP years were from 50' (453, 423, 422) - in my town 8 year olds pitch from 45'. There are pitchers in High School today that threw harder then Young ever did. How can he be translated to today?

    He also earned his WAR against a wholly inferior group of athletes to what was available later. No minorities, population of the US was what then? 35 million?

    Let's parse Young's BR "WAR" from best down:

    1892: 453 IP (anyone done that since 1893? Answer: No) 12.6 WAR
    1901: 371 IP - 11.2 WAR (inferior league to NL)
    1895: 10.6 WAR - he's got the distance, but look at the competition.
    1893: 10.4 WAR in 422 IP (what's that today 5.0 WAR)? another 50' fraud.
    1894: 9.0 WAR 408 IP (yeah he's throwing real hard....)
    1902: 6.9 WAR - inferior league problem again
    1896: 8.8 in 414 (4.3 today?) assuming he could throw much harder?
    1908: hey finally 299 IP at age 41 for an 8.2 throwing hard enough for BP today.

    Bill James doesn't have Young 1st - I believe it's 5th. James is too nice IMO.

    I've got actual stats that show the change in the game over time, I'm going to do the pitcher list and all the other positions I did before, and Young won't likely crack the top 15 anymore.

    That Award should be called the Walter Johnson award, he was a far greater pitcher then Young. His 411 wins is the most sanctioned in history. He was good (not great) in the live ball era too.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 02-05-2011 at 09:39 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  3. #123
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    Nobody was better than Pedro in his prime.

  4. #124
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    How is Seaver not even listed as an option? lmao!
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  5. #125
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    Pulling out an old thread...

    Koufax as #1 is wrong, he's about #15. His career length is just too short. Among the "peak" short career guys, Pedro is now King.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  6. #126
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    1. Koufax
    2. Pedro
    3. Maddux

  7. #127
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    Pedro is not a top 3 pitcher of all time IMO


  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASportsFan1996 View Post
    Pedro is not a top 3 pitcher of all time IMO
    Right. Doesn't have the innings. Has everything else.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #129
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    Here top 20 rWAR list of guys that at least pitched some live ball era, or all live ball:

    Walter Johnson
    Roger Clemens
    Pete Alexander
    Lefty Grove
    Tom Seaver
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Niekro
    Blyleven
    Perry
    Spahn
    Pedro
    Carlton
    Mussina
    Gibson
    Jenkins
    Ryan
    Roberts
    Schilling
    Glavine


    Koufax is way down at #79 (including all pitchers).

    Funny that so many people complain that Schilling, Mussina, and Glavine are not elite and don't deserve to get in. All 3 above the average HOF pitcher. 42 HOF'ers have less rWAR than Glavine FYI
    Last edited by bagwell368; 12-28-2012 at 10:07 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyc024 View Post
    kofax and ryan are the BEST
    This!

  11. #131
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    Roger Clemens.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by cambovenzi View Post
    There may have been different rules back then, but it was still baseball.
    What if a player from back then just decided than none of these performances should count because its from ~60ft out?
    He is the career leader in br WAR for pitchers. By alot.
    Personally I put alot of stock in peak value rather than longevity, but a case can certainly be made for Young.
    Sorry, 80 something MPH from 50' being so easy he could throw 453 IP in a 149 game season in 1892 obviously indicates that there is almost no commonality with the baseball of today, or even of 1952.

    Somewhere in this thread I shredded his big years due to various reasons such as incredibly weak leagues or the pitching distance.

    In the NFL they often split the eras in 1970. Basketball also gets split from new to old at the time the ABA merged into the NBA.

    A pitcher like Walter Johnson who had decent success in the live ball era, can be taken seriously, but all the dead ball guys? They must IMO be put into a separate category because the game has changed too much. Cy Young at his best couldn't succeed in AA ball today, and might have problems in D1 actually.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #133
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    My idea of the best pitchers of all time means the most dominant.

  14. #134
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    No Tom Seaver?

    Seaver at his best>>>>>>Ryan at his best and it isn't even close.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by nymetsrule View Post
    No Tom Seaver?

    Seaver at his best>>>>>>Ryan at his best and it isn't even close.
    About 4-5 times this has been noted in the thread. Clearly the case.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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