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  1. #16
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    Imo, the best argument against the Real ID Act is identity theft. Admittedly I'm not an expert on the subject, but wouldn't one card with all that info make it easier for identity theft?
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Imo, the best argument against the Real ID Act is identity theft. Admittedly I'm not an expert on the subject, but wouldn't one card with all that info make it easier for identity theft?
    Tougher to counterfeit.

    The information contained on the card, isn't really any different than a driver's license.

  3. #18
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    A decent number of driver's licenses already comply with the Real ID Act. If all states were to comply, there would be a de facto 'National ID.' I'm not really opposed to the ID card and the 'taking away our civil liberties' arguement is ********. I don't understand how people can get worked up over basically a revamped driver's license when there are more important issues to worry about (like unjust wars going on, the unsolved energy crisis, the ****ing election).

    And with the info arguement, if people want to steal your information, they'll hack a website or sales database to do so (they won't steal info off of a card to make a different one that likely wouldn't pass security checks).

  4. #19
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    Oh okay like I said I'm no expert on it. Thanks for the info though gcoll and debo
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    How?

    (be specific)
    I'll make this as simple as I can... Privacy = Freedom.

    I would like to know very specifically why the government desires this national ID card. The government very vaguely says that it's to increase national security... but how does this increase national security? Quite simply, by making it easier to look into American citizens' private lives.

    If all of your identifications (federal, state, social security, driver's license, etc) were combined into a single ID, the government could much more easily look into what you're doing. By doing a single check, the government can look into where you've been, loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records, etc, etc...

    Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me. This is the United States of America. The land of the FREE. Having a government that can spy on the lives of its citizens with absolutely no suspicion, no warrants, and no clearance necessary sounds like a communist police state, not the USA. A National ID card is not going to cause this to happen... it's already happening. The Patriot Act allows for an incredible amount of private information to be tapped by the government without probable cause. The National ID card will just make it easier for the government to keep tabs on you.

    I realize that it seems on the surface like a simpler way to carry identification, but this really is another step in the erosion of our liberties.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo0775 View Post
    A decent number of driver's licenses already comply with the Real ID Act. If all states were to comply, there would be a de facto 'National ID.' I'm not really opposed to the ID card and the 'taking away our civil liberties' arguement is ********. I don't understand how people can get worked up over basically a revamped driver's license when there are more important issues to worry about (like unjust wars going on, the unsolved energy crisis, the ****ing election).

    And with the info arguement, if people want to steal your information, they'll hack a website or sales database to do so (they won't steal info off of a card to make a different one that likely wouldn't pass security checks).
    Great post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padres Son View Post

    If all of your identifications (federal, state, social security, driver's license, etc) were combined into a single ID, the government could much more easily look into what you're doing. By doing a single check, the government can look into where you've been, loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records, etc, etc...

    Yeah it will take them ten minutes to find this stuff vs. the fifteen it takes now.

    It doesn't phase me, I have nothing to hide.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padres Son View Post
    I'll make this as simple as I can... Privacy = Freedom.

    I would like to know very specifically why the government desires this national ID card. The government very vaguely says that it's to increase national security... but how does this increase national security? Quite simply, by making it easier to look into American citizens' private lives.

    If all of your identifications (federal, state, social security, driver's license, etc) were combined into a single ID, the government could much more easily look into what you're doing. By doing a single check, the government can look into where you've been, loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records, etc, etc...

    Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me. This is the United States of America. The land of the FREE. Having a government that can spy on the lives of its citizens with absolutely no suspicion, no warrants, and no clearance necessary sounds like a communist police state, not the USA. A National ID card is not going to cause this to happen... it's already happening. The Patriot Act allows for an incredible amount of private information to be tapped by the government without probable cause. The National ID card will just make it easier for the government to keep tabs on you.

    I realize that it seems on the surface like a simpler way to carry identification, but this really is another step in the erosion of our liberties.

    They can do most of that already if they really wanted to.

    And the 'Land of the Free' has been horseshit since its inception. Stealing from the Natives, 1800's slavery, military drafts (no, I'm not against the military - I'm against forcing someone into a war that they may not support. The 'Land of the Free' would allow you to join or not to join)...how are any of those things 'freedoms?' The United States is and has always been a 'Land of many liberties and freedoms...but we're gonna limit which ones we give to you.'

    And thanks MP ^^

  8. #23
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    I'll make this as simple as I can... Privacy = Freedom.
    And how does an ID violate privacy?

    I would like to know very specifically why the government desires this national ID card
    It's not a "national ID card" it's a minimum set of standards for a state ID.

    Why they need it? I don't know. But unless you are a trucker, or cross the border a lot, or want to gain employment within the Federal Government......it won't really matter all that much whether your ID is up to date or not. If you do a lot of traveling, and want to apply for a passport.....you may need one. I'm not an expert on the Real ID or anything. I just know the basics.

    If all of your identifications (federal, state, social security, driver's license, etc) were combined into a single ID
    That's not what this is.

    By doing a single check, the government can look into where you've been, loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records, etc, etc
    They can already do that pretty easily.

    When a cop pulls you over....he can check who your car belongs to (license plate).....who you are (license)...who insures you.....he can check your arrest record, and if you have any warrants out.

    And...if you get busted on anything....it's not hard to pull up your tax records. Then they know where you work, how much you made, how much you gave to charity...etc. etc.

    Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me.
    You don't even know what the real id act is.

    The National ID card will just make it easier for the government to keep tabs on you.
    How? The information on this "real id" is no different than that of a driver's license.

    It's not a "national id" and it's not a "social security card / license / library card / blockbuster card / debit card" all rolled into one.

    Quote Originally Posted by debo0775
    And the 'Land of the Free' has been horseshit since its inception. Stealing from the Natives, 1800's slavery, military drafts (no, I'm not against the military - I'm against forcing someone into a war that they may not support. The 'Land of the Free' would allow you to join or not to join)...how are any of those things 'freedoms?' The United States is and has always been a 'Land of many liberties and freedoms...but we're gonna limit which ones we give to you.'
    I've made a similar point to this before.

    It was in response to someone saying that since Bush, we are no longer a free country. To which I would argue, that we are probably more free now, than we've ever been in our nation's history. This generation, that is.
    Last edited by gcoll; 08-14-2008 at 03:01 AM.

  9. #24
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    well said G

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Yeah it will take them ten minutes to find this stuff vs. the fifteen it takes now.

    It doesn't phase me, I have nothing to hide.
    So you'd be ok with the government installing cameras in your home? If you've got nothing to hide, that shouldn't be a problem for you.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    And how does an ID violate privacy?
    Makes it easier to track transactions, travel, arrests, etc... like I already spelled out.

    It's not a "national ID card" it's a minimum set of standards for a state ID.
    Yeah, a minimum set of standards determined by the federal government and connected to a national network that allows the federal government and all state govts to look up your information. Each state may have a different design on the front, but it's definitely a national ID card.

    Why they need it? I don't know.
    gcoll, you're a more trusting man than I am.

    But unless you are a trucker, or cross the border a lot, or want to gain employment within the Federal Government......it won't really matter all that much whether your ID is up to date or not. If you do a lot of traveling, and want to apply for a passport.....you may need one. I'm not an expert on the Real ID or anything. I just know the basics.
    It will definitely need to be up to date if you want to drive, fly, buy a gun, buy beer, vote, etc...

    That's not what this is.
    yes, it is.

    They can already do that pretty easily.
    This is going beyond a simple scan. It's a system that is being established so that the government can access FAR more information about you than ever before with the simple swipe of a card.

    When a cop pulls you over....he can check who your car belongs to (license plate).....who you are (license)...who insures you.....he can check your arrest record, and if you have any warrants out.

    And...if you get busted on anything....it's not hard to pull up your tax records. Then they know where you work, how much you made, how much you gave to charity...etc. etc.
    Yes, and as of now, it's not legal for the govt to look up most of that info unless they have just cause (although in many cases they do it anyway). The ID card will make it easier and will access more information.


    You don't even know what the real id act is.
    I'm not an expert, but I've got a good grasp of what it is.


    How? The information on this "real id" is no different than that of a driver's license.
    Your driver's license is not tracked by a federal computer network that is accessible by all 50 states.

    It's not a "national id" and it's not a "social security card / license / library card / blockbuster card / debit card" all rolled into one.
    Not yet. People tend to forget that once upon a time a social security card was issued for the sole purpose of collecting social security. Now you can't take a crap at an Applebee's without your social security number.

    I've made a similar point to this before.

    It was in response to someone saying that since Bush, we are no longer a free country. To which I would argue, that we are probably more free now, than we've ever been in our nation's history. This generation, that is.
    I'm not naive... I realize that there are and there must be limitations to our freedoms. And that this definitely didn't start with GWB. But I also believe that there's a dangerous abuse of power through fear tactics going on. The Patriot Act is a gross misuse of government power and the means does not justify the ends. The real ID is an extension of that. Just slap the word "terrorism" on it, and the American people will follow along.

    Oh, and by the way 39 state governments have passed resolutions opposing the real ID act.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padres Son View Post
    So you'd be ok with the government installing cameras in your home? If you've got nothing to hide, that shouldn't be a problem for you.
    Apples to oranges. I don't remember that being part of the your description of the magic powers that an ID card holds.

    You were whining that this magical, two inch by three piece of laminated paper was going to give instant insight into "loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records" which they can do right now, anyway. And yes, I have absolutely nothing to hide on those fronts. I have a couple traffic tickets, it's a fact, and I am not afraid to admit to facts that pertain to me. Not even the dreaded library books I've checked out.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Apples to oranges. I don't remember that being part of the your description of the magic powers that an ID card holds.

    You were whining that this magical, two inch by three piece of laminated paper was going to give instant insight into "loans you've taken out, library books you've checked out, bank account information, traffic tickets, arrest records, health records, marriage records" which they can do right now, anyway. And yes, I have absolutely nothing to hide on those fronts. I have a couple traffic tickets, it's a fact, and I am not afraid to admit to facts that pertain to me. Not even the dreaded library books I've checked out.
    That's definitely not apples to oranges. If the govt came to install cameras in your house tomorrow, you've already stated that you've got nothing to hide. So, how are you going to argue that you don't want cameras in your house? Then it looks like you've got something to hide.

    The answer is that it's a violation of your privacy and you aren't comfortable with it. Privacy has a value. One of the greatest punishments that can be inflicted on a man is taking away his privacy (like they do in prison). While it's true that creating a real ID card is not the same as throwing you in prison or putting cameras in your home, it IS a step in the direction of less privacy.

    Maybe you don't value your privacy or personal information, but I do. I don't have anything to hide, but that's completely irrelevant.

    If you want to read up on it, here's a great paper that was written on this subject. It's long (25 pages), but it's really interesting and very well-written.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/187371/-Iv...ngs-of-Privacy

    And by the way, I'm not whining. I'm expressing my opinion on the subject -- that's what people do on message boards.

  14. #29
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    Yeah, I know...this is Wikipedia (but it's almost a valid research tool now, and everything they say is very accurate in this article. How do I know? I READ THE ****ING REAL ID ACT!!!!).

    Padre, take a look at this because the Real ID Act is a legislative measure for things already in place in many areas. There's nothing to be worked up about it. And the cameras arguement? Where the hell did that come from?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

    The government will not be installing cameras in homes anytime soon (if ever). And for a little more paranoia, keep this in mind - the government can track you at any time they wanted with satellite imaging...or your cell phone...or your credit card...or your internet use...catch my drift? We are very much capable of being tracked - if the government wanted to track us. If you have no reason to be tracked, then don't worry about anything at all.

  15. #30
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    I can see I'm fighting an uphill battle here... so I'll try a different approach. If the govt can already easily access all of our information, then what do we need this card for? Somebody please answer why they think it's worth the BILLIONS of dollars it's going to cost to ensure that all 300 million Americans are equipped with a real ID when we already have soc sec cards and driver's licenses.

    Here's the answer given by the dept of homeland security website:
    What is a REAL ID license needed for?

    The REAL ID Act requires that a REAL ID driver’s license be used for “official purposes,” as defined by DHS. In the proposed rule, DHS is proposing to limit the official purposes of a REAL ID license to those listed by Congress in the law: accessing a Federal facility; boarding Federally-regulated commercial aircraft; and entering nuclear power plants. DHS may consider expanding these official purposes through future rulemakings to maximize the security benefits of REAL ID.
    That's very comforting. So we need to spend billions of dollars of taxpayer money to create ID's so that people can access Federal facilities, board an airplane, or enter a nuclear power plant??? What????? How many people are visiting nuclear power plants? Are we having a big problem ID'ing people who are boarding airplanes? This doesn't make sense.

    I don't feel comfortable AT ALL passing this piece of legislation without knowing what "future rulemakings" are coming after we're all carrying these cards around.

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