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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    He can always accept some town hall appearances with Jon Mccain.
    I think that's the last thing he should do.

    And I mean that from a purely strategic standpoint, not in terms of who would actually come out better at the end of a town hall (I think the odds do favor McCain, but then again he's been a total gaffe machine so I wouldn't consider it a lock).

    As I understand it (and I may not understand it all that well), one basic tenet of running an effective campaign is that you define and dictate your own terms: Your schedule, your priorities, your agenda, your issues. You don't let your opponent do that for you. Of course, no campaigns, including winning campaigns, do this 100% effectively. The candidates can influence but not control the news cycles, they obviously can't prevent their opponents from running attack ads or trying to re-shift the focus of the campaign to less favorable issues, etc. But given the difficulty of not only maintaining the ground you do gain, but also advancing onwards from there, what you absolutely cannot do is give your opponent any freebies. They will exploit them and use them against you.

    For example, do you think if Obama conceded to McCain one or two town hall debates that the McCain camp would actually acknowledge any positive virtue of his having done that? Hell no! They'd use that to attack him for being a flip-flopper ("oh, so NOW that he's feeling some pressure he'll change his mind and agree to a town hall"), they'd bash him for not doing more of them ("is Obama so afraid of discussing the issues with the American people that he'll only do it once?"), they'd point to it as an example of poor leadership ("if Obama doesn't even know when and where he wants to talk about the issues, how can we expect him to lead us?"), and they'd drum up this "celebrity" bull**** even more ("Obama wants you to think that he doesn't believe he's better than you, but he'll only get off his celebrity pedestal when it's politically convenient for him").


    At this point Obama has absolutely nothing to gain by agreeing to town halls, and a whole lot to lose. I'll be pretty shocked if they concede that.
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  2. #47
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    The town hall issue is laughable. I really have to say that. Completely ridiculous. It is another manufactured issue. There is nothing REAL about either town halls or debates. They are completely manipulated events. Why don't people understand the artificiality???? I find it really bizarre that somehow people have been convinced that somehow a townhall is more "meaningful" or "truthful".
    Last edited by ink; 08-04-2008 at 01:25 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denbutsu
    I think that's the last thing he should do.

    And I mean that from a purely strategic standpoint, not in terms of who would actually come out better at the end of a town hall (I think the odds do favor McCain, but then again he's been a total gaffe machine so I wouldn't consider it a lock).
    I can definitely see your point here.

    But. It's all about perception. And I think Mccain can milk the fact that Obama refuses to accept the offer of town hall meetings.

    For example, do you think if Obama conceded to McCain one or two town hall debates that the McCain camp would actually acknowledge any positive virtue of his having done that? Hell no!
    I'm not sure.

    They'd use that to attack him for being a flip-flopper
    Yeah. That's a real possibility.

    At this point Obama has absolutely nothing to gain by agreeing to town halls, and a whole lot to lose. I'll be pretty shocked if they concede that.
    I think Obama has quite a bit to lose by NOT agreeing to at least some of the proposed town halls that Mccain has suggested.

    I think it plays right into the "candidacy built on smoke, mirrors, and teleprompters" that I think may hurt Obama in the long run.

    Though it may all be forgotten by the time the debates roll around.

    What it makes me think of Obama, is that he's scared to confront Mccain on the issues. And from what I read from a lot of posters here...is that Mccain is the one scared of the issues. Then why is Obama hesitant to get Mccain in a platform, where they can talk about the issues face to face on live television?

    I can view this from a strategic standpoint...but as an American citizen, I'd like to see this type of thing happen. I'd like both candidates to be center stage...and I'd like them each to field difficult political questions, that they may not have been prepped on. The debates have become a mockery.

    The blinking lights, the pre-screened questions...it's not good. I'd like a tougher venue. I think town halls have a chance to be a bit tougher.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    The town hall issue is laughable. I really have to say that. Completely ridiculous. It is another manufactured issue. There is nothing REAL about either town halls or debates. They are completely manipulated events. Why don't people understand the artificiality???? I find it really bizarre that somehow people have been convinced that somehow a townhall is more "meaningful" or "truthful".
    If done right, town halls can be pretty good. But I'd want a much more combative atmosphere than either the Mccain campaign, or Obama campaign would allow.

    I basically want each candidate grilled. And I'd like to see the candidates argue face to face, more than 3 times. I don't like the way political campaigns are run, in a sort of "he said she said" type of thing. I'd like to see more "face to face" type stuff between the candidates.

    It shouldn't be "Mccain...in a new ad said.." it should be "Mccain said to Obama"

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    I think town halls have a chance to be a bit tougher.
    Why? Do you think people just randomly show up at these events? That they're not screened? Or planted? Seriously. You are not going to hear what a candidate really thinks no matter what the venue. It is all very carefully scripted and managed, and it has been for a long time.

    What I have a hard time with is the fixation on town halls. This is a McCain trumped up issue isn't it?
    Last edited by ink; 08-04-2008 at 01:33 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Why? Do you think people just randomly show up at these events? That they're not screened? Or planted? Seriously.
    No. I know that they are.

    But still. Both candidates are face to face, talking about the issues. And it would be more than the 3 debates, which I think would be a good thing.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    No. I know that they are.

    But still. Both candidates are face to face, talking about the issues. And it would be more than the 3 debates, which I think would be a good thing.
    Both parties have strategists who work to carefully control their candidate's message ... at all times. In a town hall, the theater of the event is such that people are given the illusion of two men talking face to face. In reality, they have been coached for all contingencies just like they would be for a debate. What you will find out is how well each candidate responds to that staged situation. Seems to me George W did pretty well in town halls didn't he?

    This is another McCain manufactured issue.

  8. #53
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    When I think of John McCain, I see him as some rich, deceitful Republican party puppet that will sell his soul to special interests. Whenever I see his damn campaign commercials they remind me of Bush's to the point they're sickening. It's so funny how the Republican party sells their souls to Big Oil, allowing them to make all time profits, and then turn around and blame Obama for their doing. It's so genius yet so repugnant. The American sheep-le can hopefully see through this. Christ, when I see billboards with planes flying into the WTC and messages about how it's going to happen again with Obama, it makes me sick to my stomach. I used to respect McCain, but now I only see him as John McSame.



  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Both parties have strategists who work to carefully control their candidate's message ... at all times. In a town hall, the theater of the event is such that people are given the illusion of two men talking face to face. In reality, they have been coached for all contingencies just like they would be for a debate. What you will find out is how well each candidate responds to that staged situation. Seems to me George W did pretty well in town halls didn't he?

    This is another McCain manufactured issue.
    Do you advocate getting rid of the debates as well?

    About it being a Mccain-invented issue. By definition, yes it would be. But do you think he intended for Obama to decline? I mean....from what he has said, he proposed it because it was an idea Barry Goldwater had, to fly around together with JFK, and have joint events. Whether you believe that or not, I guess is up to you...but are you sure Mccain isn't being sincere on this issue?

    Ari proposed that it may be due to the lack of money that Mccain has compared to Obama, which actually makes sense. But I dunno....Mccain has spoken of his admiration of Goldwater on other issues....I mean, I'm sure Mccain has political reasons for doing so. But I think that 10 co-events + the 3 debates, is better than just the 3 debates...no matter how pre-packaged they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin2007
    The American sheep-le can hopefully see through this
    How do you know you aren't one of these "sheep-le"??
    Last edited by gcoll; 08-04-2008 at 04:52 AM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    are you sure Mccain isn't being sincere on this issue?
    The more deeply negative his campaign gets, the more I'm inclined to doubt his sincerity if he claims that anything campaign-related he's doing isn't purely motivated out of a self-serving interest.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    What do you base that on?
    On the fact that the media is finally calling him out on it. After six months of apologising for his gaffes, mistakes, and lies, they're finally calling it for what it is, complete BS.

    On May 18, 2008 right before McCain and Obama began making ads against one another, McCain polled at 67% on the question of "Is he honest and trustworthy?"

    The time before that (Nov-07) he polled at 57% so there had definitely been an upwards trend as more Republicans began to see that he wasn't as crazy as Talk Radio was making him out to be (imagine that!).

    I'm going to have to go out on a limb here and say that number's going to be coming down a lot the next time that question gets polled.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    If done right, town halls can be pretty good. But I'd want a much more combative atmosphere than either the Mccain campaign, or Obama campaign would allow.

    I basically want each candidate grilled. And I'd like to see the candidates argue face to face, more than 3 times. I don't like the way political campaigns are run, in a sort of "he said she said" type of thing. I'd like to see more "face to face" type stuff between the candidates.

    It shouldn't be "Mccain...in a new ad said.." it should be "Mccain said to Obama"
    I agree. If we could have that, it would definitely be good for all of the voters.

    But as Denbutsu said, Obama's going to get grilled even before it happens by the GOP spin machine. He's really better off not engaging McCain at all at this point -- or continuing to issue his own challenges like the one from a month ago, "I challenge John McCain and George Bush to a debate over the economy any where any time." Let's see that happen.
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  13. #58
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    I just want to ask something here; since itís obvious the majority of you are for Obama. In regards to the "new kind of politics" that he's proposing or advocating, how do you reconcile that to his "shifts" in positions? Telling the people in Pennsylvania and Michigan that he's anti NAFTA and then after securing the nomination saying that NAFTA is a good thing. Or speaking to a Pro-Israel lobby and speaking of an undivided Jerusalem and then the next day backing off that. Or the shifts on FISA and the possibility of more drilling (both of which I agree with btw). I just want to hear how that fits in with his "new brand of politics".

    My opinion is that deep down, despite what he says, he's still "just a politician", allthough a very skilled one, I must admit.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
    I just want to ask something here; since it’s obvious the majority of you are for Obama. In regards to the "new kind of politics" that he's proposing or advocating, how do you reconcile that to his "shifts" in positions? Telling the people in Pennsylvania and Michigan that he's anti NAFTA and then after securing the nomination saying that NAFTA is a good thing. Or speaking to a Pro-Israel lobby and speaking of an undivided Jerusalem and then the next day backing off that. Or the shifts on FISA and the possibility of more drilling (both of which I agree with btw). I just want to hear how that fits in with his "new brand of politics".

    My opinion is that deep down, despite what he says, he's still "just a politician", allthough a very skilled one, I must admit.
    It's been noted in the media that McCain has shifted positions on 31 different occasions:

    Keith Olbermann of MSNBC cited 31 major instances of McCain changing his positions to now conform to conservative Republican thought--from immigration to allowing CIA torture to the Bush tax breaks for the rich. The list also included gay marriage (for it, now against it), allowing rape and incest exceptions when banning abortion (now, he wants no exceptions), warrantless wiretaps (wanted president to have warrant, no longer), and holding detainees without evidence (against, now for).
    Source: startribune.com

    You may automatically dismiss anything from MSNBC but if his reversals happened, they happened. This isn't editorializing. He has flip-flopped because he is now being managed by the party he used to be critical of. Talk about hypocritical. What does he stand for anymore? Isn't the once independent-minded media darling just doing whatever he needs to in order to win votes?
    Last edited by ink; 08-04-2008 at 12:01 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    The more deeply negative his campaign gets, the more I'm inclined to doubt his sincerity if he claims that anything campaign-related he's doing isn't purely motivated out of a self-serving interest.
    I agree. And he will take every opportunity he can to try to make issues of things that don't really have that much substance. Here's an interesting link (posted by OnWisconsin) from a town hall. The person asks McCain a very pointed question about his "respectful campaign" but gets NO REAL ANSWER from him. He just blusters something like "we believe in what we're doing". The quality of his answer is definitely lower than it would be in a debate, for example. He is intentionally vague and political in his response, not candid and honest at all. Here's the text of what he said in his non-answer:
    Well, first of all, let me say that there are differences and we are drawing those differences. And I've said earlier I admire his campaign. But what we are talking about here is substance and not style. And what we're talkin' about is who has an agenda for the future of America. Campaigns are tough but I'm proud of the campaign we have run, I'm proud of the issues we're trying to address with the American people. So, all I can say is that we're proud of that commercial ... we think Americans need to know that I believe that we should base this campaign on what we can do for Americans here at home and how we can make America safe and prosperous and that's the theme of our campaign.
    What politician wouldn't say something like that? It's just party bafflegab, poorly communicated. There's no substance to his answer, there's no insight. He's basically bumbling through his ad slogans. It's one thing for him to claim that he's the one of substance, but then he has to deliver. This is weak.

    In answer to gcoll's question about debates, I would say that it's a non-issue to distinguish between the two kinds of STAGED events as McCain is trying to get his fans to do. That was my point. Of course they should debate. At least then someone will be on the other side to challenge his vague and often incorrect statements. In the youtube clip I posted here, you can see how the woman never gets a chance to rebut him. The partisan audience just cheers after he answers. It's a rally.

    I completely doubt McCain's sincerity. This guy used to be well known as a straight talker. Those days are over.
    Last edited by ink; 08-04-2008 at 12:47 PM.

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