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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMets27 View Post
    nothing wrong wat he said it is the truth both of the democratic candidates sayed what ever would get them elected.

    and lets think most bush haters r against the war right?? yes

    most bush haters r democrats??? yes

    so obama will not take heat from his own party for wanting 2 pull out???? rite again

    so the way 2 solve this is 4 democrats 2 find out and wat us conservatives already kno tht he is a terrrible candidate he flip flops and lets remember the black double standard.....because i must b a racist if i dont like him
    I'm not sure what this last paragraph says, but bush haters are more than democrats, the guy has turned much of his party support and independent support completely away from the republican party. That's a little more than just democrats not liking him.

    you do realize that those who identified as democrat or republican used to be at about 35% and 35% until this guy came along and turned it into a recent 45%-25%?
    Last edited by PHX-SOXFAN; 07-24-2008 at 06:21 PM.

  2. 07-24-2008, 06:22 PM
    Reason
    insults followed by borderline taking of the bait

  3. 07-24-2008, 06:23 PM
    Reason
    insults followed by borderline taking of the bait

  4. 07-24-2008, 06:40 PM
    Reason
    insults followed by borderline taking of the bait

  5. 07-24-2008, 06:50 PM

  6. 07-24-2008, 07:00 PM

  7. 07-24-2008, 08:40 PM

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    I don't bash all conservatives, just the spin machines, propaganda mongers, and uninformed conservatives. There are plenty of good ones out there, they just get ignored by their own party like Colin Powell.
    Probably why Powell's offering policy advice to Obama in this cycle...
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  9. 07-24-2008, 08:58 PM

  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    Probably why Powell's offering policy advice to Obama in this cycle...
    I'm still doubtful he'll go so far as to endorse, but if he did... wow. It would almost be less a statement of support for Obama and more of an indictment of the Bush Administration's failed policies and single-minded mode of operation where dissent is punished and loyalty is rewarded over competence.

    It would be much more powerful news than say Scott McClellan's book.

    Which is really why I think he won't do it. But even if he continues making moves in directions that show him aligning himself with Obama by continuing to give him foreign policy assistance, etc., it's still highly significant.
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  11. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    I don't bash all conservatives, just the spin machines, propaganda mongers, and uninformed conservatives. There are plenty of good ones out there, they just get ignored by their own party like Colin Powell.
    alright but that means u dont like o reilly.......but what do u have against McCain

  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN
    but it took balls 6 years ago to stand up and say that. He's earned that privilege of being able to say "I was right from the beginning".
    Possibly. Though Obama didn't have a very big stage then.

    And I wouldn't say he was right "from the beginning", I would say that he may have been right "at the beginning"....there's a difference there.

    In my mind, and the mind of all other logical people, being right from the beginning is how you stay out of situations like this.
    Yes. But being right at the beginning, doesn't help us now.

    All logical people agree with me on this.

    The idea that "pulling the troops out" amounts to "losing the war" assumes:

    a) that this mess is "winnable" in any way, shape or form in the first place,

    b) that anybody who is trumpeting "winning the war" has actually articulated what they mean by that (they haven't),

    c) that we are not already losing the war to begin with because we're losing the lives of American soldiers, losing BILLIONS of dollars that could be better spent, losing the opportunity to actually fight against terrorism on more effective fronts, losing our standing in the world, losing so, so, SO much more than anything we might have gained in Iraq, and

    d) that we actually gained anything in Iraq.
    a) It is winnable.

    b) To my understanding "winning the war" has been articulated. An Iraqi government that can stand on it's own two feet, and a country that won't devolve into chaos when we leave.

    c) And all those things still exist, if we pull out immediately (especially when Obama wanted to, years ago)...but you add onto that, a possible genocide in Iraq, and Iran gaining power.

    d) If Iraq ever becomes a stable democracy, I'd say that we gained something.

    Why do you think McCain's trying to have it both ways now?
    He's not.

    as well as trying to score points by calling for a withdrawal sooner than Obama.
    He's not.
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-25-2008 at 01:41 AM.

  13. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonman
    finally, gcoll to the rescue of the right.
    I do what I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman
    We disagree with on most things but it is sooooooo obvious you possess an I.Q. above moron, a score not often found among chickenhawk fascists. You must get lonely over there. BTW, taht's about as nice as I'll ever be to ya.
    I am the smartest chicken hawk fascist in the world. I will lead the revolution.....but I won't fight in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman
    Anyway your points. Obama never endorsed an immediate withdrawal. He might have said I will BEGIN withdrawal immediately but he has always said any withdrawal will be done with the safety of our service people as our first priority.
    I didn't mean to imply that he supported an immediate withdrawal of all troops at the same time. I meant more along the lines of "A phased withdrawal....started immediately" type thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman
    Secondly, while Obama hasn't put this forward, "the surge" hasn't worked because it hasn't accomplished the stated goal, which was to make it possible for the Iraqi's to complete work on their constitution ans sharing of power and resources. Nobody I know of among us unpatriotic leftist commie gay rights supporting baby head crushing latte drinking Volvo driving liberals, Obama included, has ever disparaged our troops or suggested our military hasn't done its job remarkably well.
    The goal of the surge was to reduce violence. The reduction of violence, would then hopefully make political reconciliation possible.

    Also. I don't really get into the whole "support the troops!!!" or "This guy doesn't support the troops" type thing. I don't care about that stuff. All that argument is, is a distraction.

    What the Iraqi's are telling us is that, they can take it from here even though the goals set out when the surge policy was announced remain unaccomplished. I believe them.
    I don't believe them.

    And if they believe they can take it from here....let's have them set a date. All I hear from them is hot air, and lack of action. If they want us out, they need to take the initiative, show that they can handle security, and tell us exactly when to leave.

    The only question remaining is when will gcoll get it?
    I'm hopeless.
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-25-2008 at 01:53 AM.

  14. #37
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    Really croce? You're going to delete that post of mine? It's 100% true. The best way to avoid conflict in a thread is to articulate your post.
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  15. #38
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    McCain on July 8th:

    "Since we are succeeding, then I am convinced, as I have said before, we can withdraw and withdraw with honor. . .And I’m confident that is what Prime Minister Maliki is talking about, since he has told me that for many meetings we’ve had."
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  16. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Possibly. Though Obama didn't have a very big stage then.

    And I wouldn't say he was right "from the beginning", I would say that he may have been right "at the beginning"....there's a difference there.


    Yes. But being right at the beginning, doesn't help us now.

    All logical people agree with me on this.
    who cares how big the stage is? GW has stood on aircraft carriers with huge banners behind him. that was a big stage but it didn't help his message. It takes balls to be in the minority opinion and stand up to something that is popular at the time but ultimately wrong. the first decision to engage or not to engage is always the most crucial, no doubt about it.

    and being right at the beginning does help us now. it gives legitimacy to the man's opinion and judgment, just as equally as it belittles the opinion and judgment of those who spoke for an incorrect decision and failed policy.

  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    who cares how big the stage is? GW has stood on aircraft carriers with huge banners behind him. that was a big stage but it didn't help his message. It takes balls to be in the minority opinion and stand up to something that is popular at the time but ultimately wrong. the first decision to engage or not to engage is always the most crucial, no doubt about it.

    and being right at the beginning does help us now. it gives legitimacy to the man's opinion and judgment, just as equally as it belittles the opinion and judgment of those who spoke for an incorrect decision and failed policy.
    I agree. It's not about the stage at all. It's about decisions and having the guts and intelligence to make the right ones.

  18. #41
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    gcoll, you're a pleasure to disagree with. Just one question. Do you think the Bush Administration has been less than helpful to the Iraqi's at encouraging them toward reaching political agreement? IF so, is that a fair criticism of the Bush Administration and again if so, can you show me anything that would indicate a McCain Administration would be more proactive on the diplomacy side of war?

  19. #42
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    Wait..........

    politicians from different parties were trash talking one another

    I never thought politics would stoop so low
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  20. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Wait..........

    politicians from different parties were trash talking one another

    I never thought politics would stoop so low
    ah c'mon, show some examples when and where Obama questioned McCain's patriotism or suggested that McCain would lose a war for political advantage.

  21. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN
    who cares how big the stage is?
    It's that whole "tree falls in a forest" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN
    GW has stood on aircraft carriers with huge banners behind him. that was a big stage but it didn't help his message.
    No way. A "mission accomplished" reference. How original.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN
    and being right at the beginning does help us now. it gives legitimacy to the man's opinion and judgment, just as equally as it belittles the opinion and judgment of those who spoke for an incorrect decision and failed policy.
    So Obama being right at the beginning of the war......gives him a lifetime free pass?

    What does being wrong on the surge do to that pass?

    Do you think the Bush Administration has been less than helpful to the Iraqi's at encouraging them toward reaching political agreement?
    I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

    I am unaware of any road blocks that the Bush administration has put in the way of political agreement, nor am I aware of any specific things they did to speed them up, other than helping with security.

    IF so, is that a fair criticism of the Bush Administration and again if so, can you show me anything that would indicate a McCain Administration would be more proactive on the diplomacy side of war?
    That they haven't done enough on the diplomatic issues of Iraq? Possibly. Though, through most of this war, that's been secondary in my opinion, to the issue of violence and chaos.

    Now that people are trumpeting the success of the surge, I assume that criticism will become more prevalent, and perhaps have more weight.

    But I'm not sure what the United States can do in that regard. The Sunni fear of Iran seems to be a pretty important motivating factor in all of this stuff.

    Also, I can't show you anything that would indicate anything about the Mccain administration.

    I know that Obama has spoke of diplomacy being important. But I am not sure what that proves. And I'm not sure how much weight we'd have, with no military presence there.
    Last edited by gcoll; 07-25-2008 at 02:53 PM.

  22. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post

    I am unaware of any road blocks that the Bush administration has put in the way of political agreement, nor am I aware of any specific things they did to speed them up, other than helping with security.
    this statement is full of irony and contradiction. Do you remember the strategy going in? the rumsfled ideas and the defense of rummy? ignoring powell? not having a rebuilding plan? years of chaos? give me a break. he doesn't get any pats on the backs for finally providing in the past year, what should have been provided from the beginning of this idiotic idea.

    yes being right from the beginning is the most important. judging on how many strategies and ideas it has taken bush and mccain to show some progress, you have to assume the odds would eventually catch up and even these two could figure something out. on the other hand you could go with a guy who was right with decision #1.

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