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  1. #16
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    But gcoll's absolutely right. Politically, McCain has nothing to gain by being for the war. And Obama, as magical as he is, is gaining votes with his position.

    And if we're gonna talk about courage and such, it doesn't talk balls to stand up and say "I'm against Iraq" these days. Might as well go to an NEA meeting and profess your adoration for public education, or go to a college campus and say conservatism sucks.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    But gcoll's absolutely right. Politically, McCain has nothing to gain by being for the war. And Obama, as magical as he is, is gaining votes with his position.

    And if we're gonna talk about courage and such, it doesn't talk balls to stand up and say "I'm against Iraq" these days. Might as well go to an NEA meeting and profess your adoration for public education, or go to a college campus and say conservatism sucks.
    Or go to the all star game at yankee stadium and boo all the red sox players

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    But gcoll's absolutely right. Politically, McCain has nothing to gain by being for the war. And Obama, as magical as he is, is gaining votes with his position.

    And if we're gonna talk about courage and such, it doesn't talk balls to stand up and say "I'm against Iraq" these days. Might as well go to an NEA meeting and profess your adoration for public education, or go to a college campus and say conservatism sucks.
    but it took balls 6 years ago to stand up and say that. He's earned that privilege of being able to say "I was right from the beginning". In my mind, and the mind of all other logical people, being right from the beginning is how you stay out of situations like this.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonman View Post
    IMHO, FearAD & dbroncos78087 are missing the point. McCain said, "Sen. Obama would rather lose a war in order to win a political campaign." That's outrageous.
    Outrageous? For a person running for an office to express an ounce of personal opinion, that is right, you are 100% right there. Listen i am going to vote for Obama, do not get me wrong, i just dont think that this specific issue is a big deal.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    The idea that "pulling the troops out" amounts to "losing the war" assumes:

    a) that this mess is "winnable" in any way, shape or form in the first place,

    b) that anybody who is trumpeting "winning the war" has actually articulated what they mean by that (they haven't),

    c) that we are not already losing the war to begin with because we're losing the lives of American soldiers, losing BILLIONS of dollars that could be better spent, losing the opportunity to actually fight against terrorism on more effective fronts, losing our standing in the world, losing so, so, SO much more than anything we might have gained in Iraq, and

    d) that we actually gained anything in Iraq.



    The entire concept of "winning the war" is a house of cards built on lies. It's a sham.
    Yep. Great post, but probably too sensible. The rhetoric around Iraq and America's role starts with the complete fabrications of the President and VP who started the war, so it's no surprise that the whole concept of "winning" is so badly defined now - it's actually pretty hollow rhethoric and I don't see why anyone should buy into a false debate. McCain still wants us to believe that the war means something because that's the only way he can use his war veteran status to win the election. He has nothing to talk about if he admits what the rest of the world strongly believes - that the war was a fraud. The whole media discussion, and especially McCain's election rhetoric, should be redefined. That's one of the things I respect about Obama. He is trying to redefine many of these issues. By doing so, he is rejoining the rest of the world, and that's why he is receiving such a warm reception abroad: he is engaging intelligently with the issues, not just perpetuating the phony rhetoric that was started with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and, sad to say, Colin Powell.
    Last edited by ink; 07-24-2008 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    but it took balls 6 years ago to stand up and say that. He's earned that privilege of being able to say "I was right from the beginning". ... being right from the beginning is how you stay out of situations like this.
    I agree. And being honest from the beginning is also how you stay out of situations like this. The world knows that this was a sham. Obama is aware of that. McCain isn't or doesn't want to let on that he knows. McCain's whole point on this one is bogus.
    Last edited by ink; 07-24-2008 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Yep. Great post, but probably too sensible. The rhetoric around Iraq and America's role starts with the complete fabrications of the President and VP who started the war, so it's no surprise that the whole concept of "winning" is so badly defined now - it's actually pretty hollow rhethoric and I don't see why anyone should buy into a false debate. McCain still wants us to believe that the war means something because that's the only way he can use his war veteran status to win the election. He has nothing to talk about if he admits what the rest of the world strongly believes - that the war was a fraud. The whole media discussion, and especially McCain's election rhetoric, should be redefined. That's one of the things I respect about Obama. He is trying to redefine many of these issues. By doing so, he is rejoining the rest of the world, and that's why he is receiving such a warm reception abroad: he is engaging intelligently with the issues, not merely perpetuating the phony rhetoric that was started with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and, sad to say, Colin Powell.
    I know and to think we could have avoided the whole war in the first place if Saddam had abided by the terms of the Persian Gulf War and let the Weapon Inspectors do their job lol
    Last edited by Raidaz4Life; 07-24-2008 at 02:03 PM.

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  8. #23
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    double post
    Last edited by ink; 07-24-2008 at 02:49 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    I know and to think we could have avoided the whole war in the first place if Saddam had abided by the terms of the Persian Gulf War and let the Weapon Inspectors do their job lol
    Regardless of what the cause of the war was, the point is that McCain is continuing the Bush/Cheney rationale long after it was proven invalid. Why would anyone want to vote for more of the same?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    But gcoll's absolutely right. Politically, McCain has nothing to gain by being for the war. And Obama, as magical as he is, is gaining votes with his position.

    And if we're gonna talk about courage and such, it doesn't talk balls to stand up and say "I'm against Iraq" these days. Might as well go to an NEA meeting and profess your adoration for public education, or go to a college campus and say conservatism sucks.
    Why do you think McCain's trying to have it both ways now? Trying to capitalize off of his fortitude for being for the war, as well as trying to score points by calling for a withdrawal sooner than Obama.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Regardless of what the cause of the war was, the point is that McCain is continuing the Bush/Cheney rationale long after it was proven invalid. Why would anyone want to vote for more of the same?
    around 26% of the country still believe Saddam Hussein was behind September 11. Those voters are a lost cause. And those are the people that support McCain's support of the war unconditionally.

    I'd wager that another 10-12% of the country is going to vote against Obama (and thus, for McCain). And then there's 10-12% that support McCain overall and not just because of the war issue.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    around 26% of the country still believe Saddam Hussein was behind September 11. Those voters are a lost cause. And those are the people that support McCain's support of the war unconditionally.

    I'd wager that another 10-12% of the country is going to vote against Obama (and thus, for McCain). And then there's 10-12% that support McCain overall and not just because of the war issue.
    26% is astonishing.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    but it took balls 6 years ago to stand up and say that. He's earned that privilege of being able to say "I was right from the beginning". In my mind, and the mind of all other logical people, being right from the beginning is how you stay out of situations like this.
    John McCain has actually flip-flopped his support a number of times about the war in Iraq

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ieHw...jedreport.com/

    this video is a montage of McCain clips and starting at 2:30 it shows where he flips.. going as far to say that "he was the greatest critic" of the war.

    just so you all know

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    26% is astonishing.
    Yeah... and not nearly as bad as it was a year ago: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Poll_4...ddam_0624.html

    It seems to me that the number of people who believe Saddam was behind the attack very closely mirrors the number of people who support Bush.
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  15. #30
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    nothing wrong wat he said it is the truth both of the democratic candidates sayed what ever would get them elected.

    and lets think most bush haters r against the war right?? yes

    most bush haters r democrats??? yes

    so obama will not take heat from his own party for wanting 2 pull out???? rite again

    so the way 2 solve this is 4 democrats 2 find out and wat us conservatives already kno tht he is a terrrible candidate he flip flops and lets remember the black double standard.....because i must b a racist if i dont like him

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