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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Yeah I was not talking prolonged, another 18-24 months. I think another two years added to the first go around and Iraq is further along in there own development. But really they could have just ended up in civil war anyway so you never really know if it would have been worth it.

    You don't really think we were less welcome then we are now do you??
    Well it depends. The Kurds welcomed us because we promised them that we'd help them avoid future attacks. Of course when we pulled out of Iraq, Saddam went right back after them. So sure the Kurds would have been a little more cooperative than they are now (simply moating themselves out of the conflict).

    But as far as the Sunnis and Shias go, bear in mind that the Iran-Iraq War had just ended. There was a lot of ethnic tension still brewing back then. I think a civil war was inevitable and that it really was just the strongman government that was holding the two sides together (primarily out of induced fear).
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  2. #32
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    Well as long as we're taking one quote out of context from an article, how's this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    The surge strategy in Iraq, which saw troop levels peak at 160,000, has put a strain on the US military. But it has also led to a big reduction in violence against US troops and the civilian population.
    Someone please remind me which one of the candidates was for the Surge, when much of his own party to say nothing of the anti-war Dems were against it?

    Quote Originally Posted by John McCain
    "And if I'm elected president, I will turn around the war in Afghanistan, just as we have turned around the war in Iraq, with a comprehensive strategy for victory."
    Well, to use a sports analogy, McCain's got a good batting average thus far when it comes to strategies.

    (And FYI: "Victory" means a safe, stable, Democratic Iraq that can protect itself & doesn't become the latest orgyfest for Al-Qaeda, Iran & Syria.)

    I think one thing anyone with an IQ higher than 5 can agree on is that America losing wars is bad & America winning wars is good. Thus far, the current wars in Iraq & Afganistan aren't lost or won. Now I see one candidate claiming he wants to win the wars & the other one saying we need to pull out immediately, pull out in 16 months, 'shift focus to Afganistan' (whatever that means), and that he won't have any objection to contradicting the recommendations of the generals on the ground if he feels he knows better.

    Personally, I'd rather see the USA win both wars. Don't know about anyone else, but Obama better start saying he wants both wars to have a favorable outcome soon, even if the majority of his voting base feels like it's already lost, never should have happened, or other pointless armchair-QB opinion, if he wants my vote.
    Last edited by DodgersFan28; 07-17-2008 at 03:23 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Kerry didn't serve honorably. The only politician who exploited his vietnam record more than McCain is Kerry. The only difference is, other than moonman, you don't get a lot of people saying McCain faked his.
    Because Democrats don't run swiftboat campaigns that are founded on lies and designed to smear character. Maybe a few local ones of the nuttier variety, but not on the national scale.
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  4. #34
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    ^ Democrats don't run campaigns that are founded on lies and are designed to smear character? Are you serious???

    Did you just miss that whole "General Betray Us" ad and basically everything MoveOn.org has ever done? And before you say they aren't really the Democratic Party, remember their own claims that they "own the Democratic Party".

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    ^ Democrats don't run campaigns that are founded on lies and are designed to smear character? Are you serious???
    Yes.

    I should clarify that I mean campaign activities that are officially sanctioned by or have received the outright or tacit approval of the candidates and the party apparatus. As Bush tacitly endorsed the swiftboaters by refusing to denounce their activities.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu
    As Bush tacitly endorsed the swiftboaters by refusing to denounce their activities.
    *peers down slippery slope* Are you sure you want to go down this?

    You have to know BOTH parties are guilty of what you call "tacitly endorsing" campaigns like this MANY MANY times over. As much as it might be a comforting thought to think it's been one-sided, that's far from the truth. I know you're an Obama supporter & all but really, let's live in reality here...

  7. #37
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    Okay, DF28, one of the Republican tactics in this campaign has been to try to exploit the use of Obama's name (Hussein sounding like Sadaam Hussein, Obama rhyming with Osama) to try to drum up the perception that Obama in some way is associated with or is himself Muslim/terrorist/Islamist/Iran-friendly/Hamas-friendly/etc.

    Building on that theme, and playing into the same fears, lies and stereotypes, McCain has this page on his website:

    http://www.johnmccain.com/landing/b3.htm



    Now, please show me an example from Obama's website or otherwise directly from his campaign that is even remotely similar to that, and I'll concede you a point in this debate.
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  8. #38
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    Building on that theme, and playing into the same fears, lies and stereotypes, McCain has this page on his website
    This again?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    This again?
    Why not? It's still there, so it's still on the table for discussion.

    And it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

    And you won't find ANYTHING similar on Obama's website.
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  10. #40
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    Then Obama's stupid.

    That's a really good political ad.

    It shows a picture of a terrible anti-American man and the American candidate who wants to concede... I mean negotiate with him.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Then Obama's stupid.

    That's a really good political ad.
    Obama's been consistent about his desire to keep the campaign positive. It has worked so far. That "really good political ad" is built on a cynical public's acceptance of distortion. That may stop working for the Republicans. Hey, it stopped working for Hillary.

  12. #42
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    It's more guilt by association than distortion.

    McCain's exploting a position (Iran, let's do lunch we'll talk) and having Obama's pic next to the President A.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    It's more guilt by association than distortion.

    McCain's exploting a position (Iran, let's do lunch we'll talk) and having Obama's pic next to the President A.
    In a speech yesterday, McCain said something to the effect of Obama and Bush having the same policies on Iraq and Iran.

    I had to watch it again to see if it was a joke. Sadly he was serious.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgersFan28 View Post
    McCain's got a good batting average thus far when it comes to strategies.
    .
    umm. He's supported every bush move regarding Iraq, that's not very good, unless you consider hitting .300 good in the foreign policy department as well as on the diamond, but I doubt that's what you meant.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    You did. First, you say in number three he did nothing to serve our country. Then you make degrading comments about the whole having both his arms broken, almost drowning, etc.



    But what he did for the country, putting his own life on the line, deserves some praise. Even if he wasn't a politician, his sacrifice is more noble. Hate the war, not those who were willing to die.
    blenderboy, perhaps you need to reread my origional post then you might understand what I am saying. I am saying that him being in Vietnam did nothing to serve our country. We had nothing to gain in Vietnam except to feed into the fear of the spread of communism (which after all of the fighting there did happen and did not effect us domesticly). Please don't try to twist and turn my words and try to tell me what I men t in my statement when you are clearly clueless on what my view is.

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