Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: As an Obama supporter, do you believe in socialism?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, socialism should gradually replace capitalism in our society

    1 5.00%
  • No, I believe capitalism is still best for our country

    6 30.00%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, but I support a conversion to socialism

    0 0%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, and I believe capitalism is best

    13 65.00%
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 86
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    5,225
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Fluty View Post
    this is too simplistic a view.

    if a company profits.. say wal-mart, then they take that money and open new stores, hire more people, PAY MORE IN TAXES, advertise more and generally make life better for EVRYONE involved... not just ceos.. but even the truck driver that has to take old spice to wal-mart... if they didnt sell it then the truck driver wouldnt have a job.. so he is indirectly benefiting from wal-marts success. even the garderners, electritions, plumbers, office depot and people who sell the steel to make the buildings all benefit from wal-mart (and other companies) success

    so if a company fails.. then all the people directly and indirectly are affected also. imagine if the gov didnt bail out the airlines... and we only had 2 airline companies left... thousands of poeple making 20-30-40-50-60-70-80 thousand a year and more would be out of a job. so they wouldnt be paying taxes, buying homes or shopping at lowes, buying chevy trucks, dinner at applebees and going to get that new cd which gives the lil teen age girl at the mall a job also.

    gains one way or another ARE shared as well as some losses... were in this together.. there is no us vs the coroporations
    Wrong.

    The truck driver, plumber, electrician and all the other parallel businesses will not go under if Wal-Mart goes under. They will adapt and work with the business or businesses that replace Wal-Mart with a more efficient business model. That's how capitalism works.

    When one business fails, another better adapted business takes it's place. It's survival of the fittest in economic form. When Wal-Mart fails, and the government bails it out, Wal-Mart is not forced to adapt to make itself more viable, and its competitors are screwed out of true competition.

    What you described is socialism.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    4,957
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Fluty View Post
    PHX.... by reading some of your post i would assume you are smarter than me. but even you cant deny the very thing you typed yourself is socialism at its base.

    you said obama wants to take money from people who have disposable income and make up for it by lowering taxes for lower income people

    that doesn't sound like socialism to you?
    your quote is half me half ari. No that is not socialism. Look up what socialism, communism and a progressive income tax is. Then see what GW put in place for the rates for the upper tax brackets. Then see what the result of that is in our status quo, or how it worked any time REagan or a wannabe tried it. This should sum it up, in addition to ari's posts.

    thanks

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Infiltrating Hippie Southwestern Command Center
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    1500
    ok padre.. wal-mart goes bankrupt tomorrow.... what does the 1.3 million people employed do next week? not including the plumbers, electritions and other people who rely on wal-marts employees paychcks.

    come on mr president (you)... what do you do with over 1.3 million people who are begging for you to help them, just ignore them? yeah.. lets see that on cnn

    it would take years for the truckers to "adapt" like you say... people would be homeless with your "let them work it out" ideas

    so come on.. you have 1.5 MILLION people suddenly jobless... you dont think the gov should help a lil?

    the job market is already tough... with illegals working for $3.27 a hour what would the jobless wal-mart people be able to get? (sarcasm)

    im not talking about the gov bailing out every company that goes under... but companies that have a direct impact on our entire country... like bear sterns, the airlines and such

    while i am a capatalist... i also have compassion and understanding of the big picture. people have jobs today because of the gov helping chrysler and the airlines...

    (and sorry i got some post mixed up phx... you guys have the same font lol)
    Last edited by Doc Fluty; 07-15-2008 at 06:33 PM.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    5,225
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Fluty View Post
    ok padre.. wal-mart goes bankrupt tomorrow.... what does the 1.3 million people employed do next week? not including the plumbers, electritions and other people who rely on wal-marts employees paychcks.

    come on mr president (you)... what do you do with over 1.3 million people who are begging for you to help them, just ignore them? yeah.. lets see that on cnn

    it would take years for the truckers to "adapt" like you say... people would be homeless with your "let them work it out" ideas

    so come on.. you have 1.5 MILLION people suddenly jobless... you dont think the gov should help a lil?

    the job market is already tough... with illegals working for $3.27 a hour what would the jobless wal-mart people be able to get? (sarcasm)

    im not talking about the gov bailing out every company that goes under... but companies that have a direct impact on our entire country... like bear sterns, the airlines and such

    while i am a capatalist... i also have compassion and understanding of the big picture. people have jobs today because of the gov helping chrysler and the airlines...

    (and sorry i got some post mixed up phx... you guys have the same font lol)
    Well, if we're going to continue with the Wal-Mart example, that'll make my argument even easier because the government already provides a ton of support to those people. Thanks to Wal-Marts terrible health care, the govt is already providing health care for those workers.

    To answer your question, NO I would not bail out Wal-Mart. This is a capitalist society and we need to revise our thinking and realize that the government is not our mommy who is there to make sure that everybody is safe and sound. And the govt is definitely not our daddy who is there to hand us (corporations) money when we irresponsibly spend all of ours.

    There are two big points to make here (I could write a frickin book on this, but I'll try to be succinct)....

    #1 -- Small Business -- Why is Wal-Mart more important to the US than small business? When Wal-Mart chose to cut every corner to lower prices and put small pharmacies, grocery stores, optometrists, hardware stores, toy stores etc, etc, etc, out of business, where was the government then? Why didn't the government step in and bail out the small businesses?

    Answer: Because Wal-Mart was more successful in the capitalist marketplace. They found a way to offer products cheaper and it put thousands of businesses out of business. You cannot now step in and say, well, we let the small businesses die, but we're going to give Wal-Mart taxpayer money (probably out of the pockets of the very people Wal-Mart put out of business) to help them stay afloat. That's just not America.

    (Again, I could go on... )

    #2 -- Competition -- In this example, we're assuming that Wal-Mart is going out of business for some reason, but we don't know why. Well, usually the reason a company goes out of business is because it has made poor decisions and cannot compete anymore -- meaning that there is another retailer able to sell the products that Wal-Mart no longer can. If Wal-Mart suddenly went out of business tomorrow, obviously it would have a large impact on the economy, but the demand for groceries, hardware, toys, etc, would just be transferred to other/new businesses. The immediate growth of the other businesses would absorb the unemployed workers in a short period of time.

    In other words, Wal-Mart doesn't create demand. If they went out of business tomorrow, people wouldn't just stop buying groceries and light bulbs and toilet plungers... they'd buy them somewhere else.

    Long story short -- The beauty of capitalism is that in most cases, it corrects its own problems. The US taxpayers should not be expected to pay billions of dollars to rescue private companies that were poorly run and would be better off collapsing and being replaced by better run businesses.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    49,788
    vCash
    1500
    Obama is a socialist?? That would be news to socialist leaders around the world who stand far far to the left of him. I think Americans have a completely innacurate definition of the term "socialist". I have no idea where your definition comes from, but it's inaccurate. You might have concerns that Obama is not purely capitalist enough, but that does not make him a socialist. That kind of exaggeration seems to have settled into the political culture of the USA to the extent that Americans no longer even know what "socialist" actually refers to in the rest of the world. "Socialism", in the rest of the world, is a clearly defined doctrine of state ownership or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution. Nothing even remotely close to that has ever or will ever exist in the USA. Invoking the evil word "socialism" is a bogeyman to scare people, when in fact Obama is really just advocating capitalism with a strong conscience.
    Last edited by ink; 07-16-2008 at 05:27 PM.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Shakedown Street, Japan
    Posts
    30,255
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Obama is a socialist?? That would be news to socialist leaders around the world who stand far far to the left of him. I think Americans have a completely innacurate definition of the term "socialist". I have no idea where your definition comes from, but it's inaccurate. You might have concerns that Obama is not purely capitalist enough, but that does not make him a socialist. That kind of exaggeration seems to have settled into the political culture of the USA to the extent that Americans no longer even know what "socialist" actually refers to in the rest of the world. "Socialism", in the rest of the world, is a clearly defined doctrine of state ownership or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution. Nothing even remotely close to that has ever or will ever exist in the USA. Invoking the evil word "socialism" is a bogeyman to scare people, when in fact Obama is really just advocating capitalism with a strong conscience.


    As I said in my only other post in this thread, I think people who want to start threads about socialism should actually understand what the hell socialism is before they start threads about it.
    I blog basketball at Roundball Mining Company///Twitter: @denbutsu

    Atheists Of PSD

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,113
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    your point was raising taxes. Obama is lowering taxes for 99% of the population, while increasing them for a small percentage. Overall keeping taxes roughly the same. Are you in the top percentile?
    That is the quote I have been waiting for out of you. You're not in the top percentile, so you don't care. I'm not either, but I don't believe the government should be taking a higher percentage of their money than they do from anyone else. They earned that money and it doesn't belong to the federal government!

    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    as a whole he's not raising them. He's restoring the progressive income tax system and giving tax breaks.
    He plans on raising the capital gains tax, and raising taxes on the Americans who pay the majority of taxes, yet he doesn't plan on raising taxes? Keep on spinning your talking points. Having a debate with you is so futile and frustrating I lack the ability to describe it. I'm done with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingJamsI View Post
    I suppose that if you view a true progressive tax system as being tantamount to wealth re-distribution than I did admit that. And if so, your certainly entitled to being a crazy person. And no, I did not vote in your poll, less because it is skewed (though it is) and more because my opinion on the topic would be infinitely more complex then those statements.
    Oh yeah, I'm real crazy for thinking that the Federal Government taking progressively more money from those who EARN more is a form of wealth redistribution. Taking more from some, so that others can pay less.... What would you call it? The top 5% already pay 95% of the taxes in our country and that's not good enough for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Obama is a socialist?? That would be news to socialist leaders around the world who stand far far to the left of him. I think Americans have a completely innacurate definition of the term "socialist". I have no idea where your definition comes from, but it's inaccurate. You might have concerns that Obama is not purely capitalist enough, but that does not make him a socialist. That kind of exaggeration seems to have settled into the political culture of the USA to the extent that Americans no longer even know what "socialist" actually refers to in the rest of the world. "Socialism", in the rest of the world, is a clearly defined doctrine of state ownership or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution. Nothing even remotely close to that has ever or will ever exist in the USA. Invoking the evil word "socialism" is a bogeyman to scare people, when in fact Obama is really just advocating capitalism with a strong conscience.
    LMAO! "Capitalism with a strong conscience." It all depends on where you draw the line. Socialized retirement? Nah, that wasn't far enough. Taxes? Well, the wealthy pay 95% of the federal tax, but hey, we should take more from them. Heck, we should have socialized health care, but then I wonder where the successfull Canadians would go for their health care.

    It's only a matter of time before the progressives ruin everything we've worked so hard to build. You are a bunch of simpletons who can't see the forrest from the trees. Go read some more books. Pretty soon the successfull, productive people will go live somewhere else and then we'll see who will pay for all the roads and schools.



    HW- Lesnar, Barry, Overeem
    LHW- HENDO!, Shogun, Mousasi
    MW- Sonnen, Stann, Leben
    WW- Condit, GSP, Ellenberger
    LW- Sherk, Guida, Volkmann

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Considering that nobody is building our roads and bridges right now; and the Republicans have cut funding to education to pay for the bloated war bill, I think we have a much better shot at those things getting funded with a progressive liberal president in charge.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Des Moines IA
    Posts
    9,701
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    It's only a matter of time before the progressives ruin everything we've worked so hard to build. You are a bunch of simpletons who can't see the forrest from the trees. Go read some more books. Pretty soon the successfull, productive people will go live somewhere else and then we'll see who will pay for all the roads and schools.
    Was that absolutely necessary? Disagree with somebody, fine. But, when you resort to belittling somebody with a different political philosophy than you, well ... you lose. Pretty lame on your part, but that's just me ... you know, one of those uneducated liberal people that don't read books or pay taxes to help fund infrastructure and education.

    Oh, and you misspelled forest.
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    49,788
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    LMAO! "Capitalism with a strong conscience." It all depends on where you draw the line. Socialized retirement? Nah, that wasn't far enough. Taxes? Well, the wealthy pay 95% of the federal tax, but hey, we should take more from them. Heck, we should have socialized health care, but then I wonder where the successfull Canadians would go for their health care.

    It's only a matter of time before the progressives ruin everything we've worked so hard to build. You are a bunch of simpletons who can't see the forrest from the trees. Go read some more books. Pretty soon the successfull, productive people will go live somewhere else and then we'll see who will pay for all the roads and schools.
    Go ahead and LYAO. There probably hasn't ever been a socialist candidate in the history of the USA. Socialism has never caught on in America in any way, shape or form. The entire premise of the thread is faulty and there's no need to insult or to wander off topic to try to defend it. I've lived, studied, worked and paid taxes on three continents - North America, Europe and Asia - and the USA is the only place where some people refuse to understand that though taxes seemingly dip into your private bank account, they also provide you and your family with roads, education and many of the other essentials of our lives. There is ZERO about that that is socialist. And I think SmthBluCitrus addressed the second half of your post well enough that I don't need to dignify it.
    Last edited by ink; 07-16-2008 at 11:57 PM.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Shakedown Street, Japan
    Posts
    30,255
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    You are a bunch of simpletons who can't see the forrest from the trees. Go read some more books.
    .
    I blog basketball at Roundball Mining Company///Twitter: @denbutsu

    Atheists Of PSD

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Go ahead and LYAO. There probably hasn't ever been a socialist candidate in the history of the USA. Socialism has never caught on in America in any way, shape or form. The entire premise of the thread is faulty and there's no need to insult or to wander off topic to try to defend it. I've lived, studied, worked and paid taxes on three continents - North America, Europe and Asia - and the USA is the only place where some people refuse to understand that though taxes seemingly dip into your private bank account, they also provide you and your family with roads, education and many of the other essentials of our lives. There is ZERO about that that is socialist. And I think SmthBluCitrus addressed the second half of your post well enough that I don't need to dignify it.
    Eugene V. Debs captured 6% of the vote in 1912 (over 900K voters) -- pretty impressive since there was already a third party candidate in Teddy Roosevelt running on the Progressive ticket.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    VANCOUVER
    Posts
    49,788
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    Eugene V. Debs captured 6% of the vote in 1912 (over 900K voters) -- pretty impressive since there was already a third party candidate in Teddy Roosevelt running on the Progressive ticket.
    Fairly remote threat I'd say. Even predates the big bad Russian commies by a few years. My humble opinion is that America should really be over the scare of 1912 by now. LOL.
    Last edited by ink; 07-17-2008 at 03:01 AM.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Fairly remote threat I'd say. Even predates the big bad Russian commies by a few years. My humble opinion is that America should really be over the scare of 1912 by now. LOL.
    Well to be fair you have to understand the history. A big reason for the push against Socialism in this country was because of the emerging power of the labor movement in this country. The socialist party gave way to the large unions in this country like the IWW and the AFL (and later CIO).

    Labor was at its strongest in the 20 year period between 1935 and 1955 after the AFL and CIO merged. It was in that same time period that big business really began pumping money into anti-communist candidates that they knew would pass anti-labor legislation.

    After decades and decades of rhetoric coming out of both sides of the aisle in Washington, it's no surprise that entire generations grew up with an outright fear and hatred of anything remotely associated with communism, socialism, collectivism, and labor. And that includes such soft-left issues like public education.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,113
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    Was that absolutely necessary? Disagree with somebody, fine. But, when you resort to belittling somebody with a different political philosophy than you, well ... you lose. Pretty lame on your part, but that's just me ... you know, one of those uneducated liberal people that don't read books or pay taxes to help fund infrastructure and education.

    Oh, and you misspelled forest.
    You're absolutely correct. I wasn't insinuating that liberals were uneducated by that statement though, but that's besides the point. Flaming is lame and I am guilty as charged.

    I just eventually flipped out when that PHX person keeps trying to say Obama isn't going to raise taxes. He's going to cut them for people who hardly pay them and raise them on those who are already paying the most. He's also going to raise the capital gains tax, which effects anyone who is investing outside of a tax-deferred account. I am an investment advisor, and believe me, that's a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Go ahead and LYAO. There probably hasn't ever been a socialist candidate in the history of the USA. Socialism has never caught on in America in any way, shape or form. The entire premise of the thread is faulty and there's no need to insult or to wander off topic to try to defend it. I've lived, studied, worked and paid taxes on three continents - North America, Europe and Asia - and the USA is the only place where some people refuse to understand that though taxes seemingly dip into your private bank account, they also provide you and your family with roads, education and many of the other essentials of our lives. There is ZERO about that that is socialist. And I think SmthBluCitrus addressed the second half of your post well enough that I don't need to dignify it.
    Believe me, I understand what taxes are for and agree that they are necesary. I just don't think that the burden should only be shouldered by the wealthy. Progressive tax rates are completely unfair, unjustified and are uncongruant with the capitalist principles that have made our country prosperous.

    The wealthy would still pay the majority of taxes if we just had a flat tax.



    HW- Lesnar, Barry, Overeem
    LHW- HENDO!, Shogun, Mousasi
    MW- Sonnen, Stann, Leben
    WW- Condit, GSP, Ellenberger
    LW- Sherk, Guida, Volkmann

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •