Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: As an Obama supporter, do you believe in socialism?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, socialism should gradually replace capitalism in our society

    1 5.00%
  • No, I believe capitalism is still best for our country

    6 30.00%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, but I support a conversion to socialism

    0 0%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, and I believe capitalism is best

    13 65.00%
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 86
  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    4,957
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    People in a certain income tax will pay more. For them, their taxes are raised. For someone who pretends to be against spin...
    as a whole he's not raising them. He's restoring the progressive income tax system and giving tax breaks.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    5,225
    vCash
    1500
    Anyone want to tell me why conservative capitalist GWB used taxpayer money to bail out Bear Sternes, is in the process of bailing out Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac, and may be providing additional bank bailouts soon?

    The very foundation of capitalism lies upon the risk/reward principle. When you bail out banks who approved bad loans, and homeowners who took out mortgages they couldn't afford, you're destroying capitalism.

    I don't appreciate having the government use my tax dollars to rescue greedy banks who gave out loans they shouldn't have, stupid people who took out mortgages they shouldn't have, and stockholders who should assume the risk of investing in these PRIVATE companies. This trend of bailing out private companies is a great step towards socialism.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    as a whole he's not raising them. He's restoring the progressive income tax system and giving tax breaks.
    Do you read a single ****ing thing I type?

    I said the same thing. If you read it. You are spinning facts by constantly posting that Obama isn't going to raise taxes. while in fact he's raising and lowering taxes. Then you defend your spin with more spin. Pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Padres Son View Post
    The very foundation of capitalism lies upon the risk/reward principle. When you bail out banks who approved bad loans, and homeowners who took out mortgages they couldn't afford, you're destroying capitalism.
    Go talk to FDR about that
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    4,957
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Do you read a single ****ing thing I type?

    I said the same thing. If you read it. You are spinning facts by constantly posting that Obama isn't going to raise taxes. while in fact he's raising and lowering taxes. Then you defend your spin with more spin. Pathetic.
    Of course I do, you spin it in the GW/Karl Rove talking point as usual and I look at facts and numbers.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    hahahaha unbelievable.

    I say Obama's raising and lowering taxes, and until this thread you've continued to say Obama won't raise taxes. How is my position a GW position?

    And I doubt you've ever looked at facts, as you spend more energy coming up with people to associate me with than doing actual research.

    I never thought I'd say this, but your posts make me miss moonman's constant "McCain's McShame" threads.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    Great. So, like I said from the onset, Obama is supporting raising taxes. Of course, it's just on those evil, wealthy people who don't deserve the money that they earned anyways. He's in favor of wealth redistribution, and taking from those who are successfull.

    What was my point to begin with?
    Redistribution would involve taking tax dollars from the taxpayers and giving them to the poor non-taxpayers in the form of an EITC (which is something that we do right now).

    What Obama is proposing is just going to increase the net disposable income a person has from each paycheck. That has nothing to do with wealth redistribution. It's the same type of thing that happens during each recession.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    St. Louis, MO / SIUe
    Posts
    35,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Do you read a single ****ing thing I type?

    I said the same thing. If you read it. You are spinning facts by constantly posting that Obama isn't going to raise taxes. while in fact he's raising and lowering taxes. Then you defend your spin with more spin. Pathetic.



    Go talk to FDR about that
    The New Deal didn't involve nationalizing banks. It provided for bank insurance guarantees.

    I completely disagree with the government taking over IndyMac. The banking system is run separate of the government for a reason.
    Member of the Owlluminati

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    "Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."
    2011 Knicks Salary Cap Information

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Des Moines IA
    Posts
    9,701
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Go talk to FDR about that
    Right ... the same FDR that worked to help put restrictions in place to regulate areas of capitalism so we wouldn't have to deal with another full fledged depression.

    Am I necessarily for bailouts of corporations like Bear, Fannie, and Freddie? Not in the slightest. But, just like the S&L scandals of the 80's, we've shown a propensity for a low risk/high reward system of quasi-socialism for the rich.

    These semi-private corporations are supposed to be operating under federally regulated mandates. But, they gambled big in the housing bubble with subprime mortgages (and lost). Had they made profits, they would've kept them. Now that they're on thin ice, we have to bail them out.

    Krugman put it best this morning:
    "If Fannie and Freddie do well, their stockholders reap the benefits, but if things go badly, Washington picks up the tab. Heads they win, tails we lose."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/op...rugman.html?hp
    Когда́ де́ньги говоря́т, тогда́ пра́вда молчи́т

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    350
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    That's exactly how I would've written it were I campaigning for Obama. Unfortunately I was attempting to talk about a principle, not argue about which candidate is better or who I would like to see elected. I would like to thank you for being honest enough to admit that Barak does, in fact, believe in wealth redistribution. Based on that admission, were you also able to allow yourself to vote for the first option in the poll?
    I suppose that if you view a true progressive tax system as being tantamount to wealth re-distribution than I did admit that. And if so, your certainly entitled to being a crazy person. And no, I did not vote in your poll, less because it is skewed (though it is) and more because my opinion on the topic would be infinitely more complex then those statements.
    Last edited by KingJamsI; 07-14-2008 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    930
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by SmthBluCitrus View Post
    Right ... the same FDR that worked to help put restrictions in place to regulate areas of capitalism so we wouldn't have to deal with another full fledged depression.

    Am I necessarily for bailouts of corporations like Bear, Fannie, and Freddie? Not in the slightest. But, just like the S&L scandals of the 80's, we've shown a propensity for a low risk/high reward system of quasi-socialism for the rich.

    These semi-private corporations are supposed to be operating under federally regulated mandates. But, they gambled big in the housing bubble with subprime mortgages (and lost). Had they made profits, they would've kept them. Now that they're on thin ice, we have to bail them out.

    Krugman put it best this morning:
    "If Fannie and Freddie do well, their stockholders reap the benefits, but if things go badly, Washington picks up the tab. Heads they win, tails we lose."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/op...rugman.html?hp
    Exactly what I've been saying for years with fewer words;

    Privatize the gain, socialize the loss, or Profit is private, loss is socialized.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Infiltrating Hippie Southwestern Command Center
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    Obama does not support higher taxes, is far from a socialist

    Obama is lowering taxes for 99% of the population, while increasing them for a small percentage. Overall keeping taxes roughly the same.

    as a whole he's not raising them. He's restoring the progressive income tax system and giving tax breaks.

    Redistribution
    would involve taking tax dollars from the taxpayers and giving them to the poor non-taxpayers in the form of an EITC (which is something that we do right now).

    What Obama is proposing is just going to increase the net disposable income a person has from each paycheck
    . That has nothing to do with wealth redistribution. It's the same type of thing that happens during each recession.
    PHX.... by reading some of your post i would assume you are smarter than me. but even you cant deny the very thing you typed yourself is socialism at its base.

    you said obama wants to take money from people who have disposable income and make up for it by lowering taxes for lower income people

    that doesn't sound like socialism to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    People in a certain income tax will pay more. For them, their taxes are raised. For someone who pretends to be against spin...
    Last edited by Doc Fluty; 07-15-2008 at 03:10 PM.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,568
    vCash
    1500
    That's the exact definition of socialism, but PHX still doesn't understand that raising taxes for certain income brackets is raising taxes for certain income brackets. So give him some time.
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Infiltrating Hippie Southwestern Command Center
    Posts
    1,405
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by moonman View Post
    Exactly what I've been saying for years with fewer words;

    Privatize the gain, socialize the loss, or Profit is private, loss is socialized.
    this is too simplistic a view.

    if a company profits.. say wal-mart, then they take that money and open new stores, hire more people, PAY MORE IN TAXES, advertise more and generally make life better for EVRYONE involved... not just ceos.. but even the truck driver that has to take old spice to wal-mart... if they didnt sell it then the truck driver wouldnt have a job.. so he is indirectly benefiting from wal-marts success. even the garderners, electritions, plumbers, office depot and people who sell the steel to make the buildings all benefit from wal-mart (and other companies) success

    so if a company fails.. then all the people directly and indirectly are affected also. imagine if the gov didnt bail out the airlines... and we only had 2 airline companies left... thousands of poeple making 20-30-40-50-60-70-80 thousand a year and more would be out of a job. so they wouldnt be paying taxes, buying homes or shopping at lowes, buying chevy trucks, dinner at applebees and going to get that new cd which gives the lil teen age girl at the mall a job also.

    gains one way or another ARE shared as well as some losses... were in this together.. there is no us vs the coroporations
    Last edited by Doc Fluty; 07-15-2008 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    930
    vCash
    1500
    ^^^^Excellent points Doc Flutey. I really appreciate your moving the discussion to public policy rather arguing the philosophical.

    The question is bailouts. More specifically, should we bail out the banks, both commercial and investment. I say no, let them go under. The scenario you draw, of massive hardship as bank closures permeate society doesn't tell half the story.

    The fact is Doc, we are now committed to bailing out the Mae's. This could add another 5.3 trillion to our current debt of 9.5 trillion. Indymac will eat somewhere between 8-12% of the FDIC's reserves. There is chatter in the financial press that commercial real estate is about to bust and take down hundreds of small local banks. It will only take a handful of Indymac's to exhaust teh ability of the FDIC to make good on deposits. What then? Currently the FDIC claims it has 90 to 150 banks on its "troubled list." Indymac was not one of them.

    We haven't got it Doc. We don't have the money and beside that it's only money. Money is the virtual simulation of the economy. Finance is not the real economy. People will still buy, sell and trade. People will still invent and grow crops and build and make things. It's what we do.

    If we continue to bail out the next Chrysler or the next Indymac, pretty soon we'll go bust anyway because we can't pay the tab. All we can do is inflate, as the Fed is doing, devalue the currency, which is the direct result of inflation and pray.

    In the short term, you are right Doc. It will be devastating. In the long term it will be less costly and the depression will be of shorter duration. I'm convinced we are headed for a depression and the only decision is to have it now or postpone it a year or two at most.
    Last edited by moonman; 07-15-2008 at 05:30 PM.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    61
    vCash
    1500
    Well not socialism for what it is, but to use the best out of it combined with capitalism... like free health care for everyone...

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •