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View Poll Results: As an Obama supporter, do you believe in socialism?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, socialism should gradually replace capitalism in our society

    1 5.00%
  • No, I believe capitalism is still best for our country

    6 30.00%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, but I support a conversion to socialism

    0 0%
  • I am not an Obama supporter, and I believe capitalism is best

    13 65.00%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    You can't have completely unregulated capitalism though.

    A "diet" form of capitalism works best, I think.
    Exactly why regulated capitalism gave the US the highest GDP growth rate in the world in the 20th century -- 3.1% average growth. The sample size is a bit smaller over the beginning of this century, but our 2.5% growth could be blamed in small part on some of the deregulation schemes that found us offshoring heavily between 1996 and today.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimura by Putin View Post
    Do not regulate that which needs no regulation. (KEEP REGULATION TO THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM.)

    Forcing decision on others yields only ineffeciency.
    Localities that have privatized their roadways and waterworks have all experienced problems with their infrastructure. Some things are better left to the government.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimura by Putin View Post
    Try not to be so conclusory, please provide facts to support you contention.

    Your rant smells of "Chivas Regal" ... oops, I mean Ted Kennedy east coast liberalism, so typical, personally attack the person with a divergent perspective, while frothing at the mouth about unsupported nonsense.

    Mr. Obama has said that he plans to do away with tax cuts for people in the upper tax bracket, increase his "welfare to work" social programs, and provide middle class tax cuts as part of his economic stimulus packet.

    Those policies remind me of a story I read when I was a child. Its was called Robin Hood and the moral of that story was ...

    ... steal from the rich and give to the poor.

    Oh, by chance, are you a union member?
    So you're against welfare to work programs? You're against increasing consumption in the economy via increasing disposable income for the bulk of the population?

    Supply side economics does not work. However, since our marginal propensity to consume is around .898 -- meaning we spend about $898 of each $1000 that we earn on average (with the number shifting a bit higher as you look at lower quartiles), the more people that get their tax dollars back, the more spending we'll see in our economy. That's capitalism at its best.

    For each dollar that gets injected back into the economy via welfare-to-work or via tax credits/rebates, GDP grows about $8.58.

    On the flip side, with T-Bills nearing record lows, most people will be more likely to invest in foreign bonds. That means the "investor class" will be less productive in terms of dollar:GDP ratio.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ari1013 View Post
    So you're against welfare to work programs? You're against increasing consumption in the economy via increasing disposable income for the bulk of the population?

    Supply side economics does not work. However, since our marginal propensity to consume is around .898 -- meaning we spend about $898 of each $1000 that we earn on average (with the number shifting a bit higher as you look at lower quartiles), the more people that get their tax dollars back, the more spending we'll see in our economy. That's capitalism at its best.

    For each dollar that gets injected back into the economy via welfare-to-work or via tax credits/rebates, GDP grows about $8.58.

    On the flip side, with T-Bills nearing record lows, most people will be more likely to invest in foreign bonds. That means the "investor class" will be less productive in terms of dollar:GDP ratio.
    I have not encountered any information besides an Obama advertisement that suggest his "Welfare to Work" programs have been successful.

    Tax credits/rebates only provide a short term fix similar to injecting credit dollars in the economy. The growth will be there only as long as the funds are available. Thus, once the government can't afford to give hand outs to people who didn't pay taxes in the first place the growth will come to an abrupt halt. Its like maxing out a credit card because once the funds are no longer available you cannot soend any more money.

    We need sustainable GDP growth, not a short terms fix.

    Your trying to make the exception the rule with your t-bill example because you're using one example to extrapolate into evidence of a larger whole.

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimura by Putin View Post
    I have not encountered any information besides an Obama advertisement that suggest his "Welfare to Work" programs have been successful.

    Tax credits/rebates only provide a short term fix similar to injecting credit dollars in the economy. The growth will be there only as long as the funds are available. Thus, once the government can't afford to give hand outs to people who didn't pay taxes in the first place the growth will come to an abrupt halt. Its like maxing out a credit card because once the funds are no longer available you cannot soend any more money.

    We need sustainable GDP growth, not a short terms fix.

    Your trying to make the exception the rule with your t-bill example because you're using one example to extrapolate into evidence of a larger whole.

    "The best time to buy is when other people can't afford to buy." - John D Rockefeller
    Sorry, but according to Milton Friedman's Permanent Income Hypothesis (which has been empirically tested decade after decade), you're wrong. Temporary injections are the only way for fiscal policy to achieve meaningful results. Any long term fixes must come from monetary policy which means the Fed has to act -- and that's exactly what Bernanke's trying to do (thus the importance of the T-Bills).

    Sorry if my simplification left out some details, but those are the facts.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Yeah but we waste so much money on stupid **** that we don't have to raise taxes, just regulate what congress spends more.

    For instance, we could eliminate the National Endowement for the Arts. Or earmarks. It would be cool if we could eliminate the line item veto but it's sorta unconstitutional.
    signing statements are another story, those should be gone, not an option, and no longer observed those that have been put in place.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    I'm not voting in this poll because there are assumptions in the question that are not true. Obama does not support higher taxes, is far from a socialist, and is not the most liberal senator, especially widely viewed. Just because a magazine rated him as such does not make it true. Take a look for yourself and stop digesting far right talking points.
    Are you really under the impression that Obama doesn't support higher taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingJamsI View Post
    Barak Obama is widely considered the most liberal senator in congress by people who believe everything Fox news tells them. He believes in high taxes for the extremely wealthy, and lower for the other 95% of Americans, not indebting our country further to China, universally available heathcare, and is generally a Democrat. It is not uncommon today to hear young people say that they support socialism and it is not surprising to anyone to see all the young voters flock to Obama, because unlike McCain, Charlie Black, and Phil Gramm, Barack understands the struggles of young people and students, doesn't need a terror attack in the U.S. to win, and actually recognizes that we have serious economic problems in this country. The promise that the government will not contribute to your problems, and will help you when reasonable to do so, is enticing to most intelligent people.
    That's exactly how I would've written it were I campaigning for Obama. Unfortunately I was attempting to talk about a principle, not argue about which candidate is better or who I would like to see elected. I would like to thank you for being honest enough to admit that Barak does, in fact, believe in wealth redistribution. Based on that admission, were you also able to allow yourself to vote for the first option in the poll?

    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post
    I'd like to cast my vote for people talking about socialism actually understanding what socialism is before making polls about socialism.
    Please enlighten me as to what I am not comprehending about socialism. It's very difficult to respond to all these posts where someone basically says the equivalent of "you're completely ignorant," yet they don't bother to take the time to give any evidence as to why. It's really inelegant to post in that fashion.


    Quote Originally Posted by FearAD View Post
    You must work for Fox News. This poll is so skewed and biased.
    Please see my comment directly above your quote. Don't be a blight to the internet by posting something that is inflamatory, yet completely devoid of substance.



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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    Are you really under the impression that Obama doesn't support higher taxes?
    .
    yes, that's what his plan shows, just like McCain's. When you look at facts, figures, and numbers, instead of talking points, you come to this understanding.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    yes, that's what his plan shows, just like McCain's. When you look at facts, figures, and numbers, instead of talking points, you come to this understanding.
    Here you go:

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-...ent-taxes.html

    Please provide me with some of your sources. I'd really like to be enlightened with your facts and figures, rather than just hearing your talking points.



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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    Here you go:

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-...ent-taxes.html

    Please provide me with some of your sources. I'd really like to be enlightened with your facts and figures, rather than just hearing your talking points.
    No problem, we've already discussed this with the facts included, here you go:

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=231500

    there's a CNN article right at the beginning.

    raising the investment tax is one area you could argue, however that is a loophole that needs to be closed, even Warren Buffet has been pushing for this since investors dodge paying their share of taxes.

    Don't worry, I don't spew talking points, I can always bring you facts, figures, quotes to back it up. Just ask. Much like the Obama campaig, there's no need to hide behind propaganda and talking points when the facts speak for themselves.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    No problem, we've already discussed this with the facts included, here you go:

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=231500

    there's a CNN article right at the beginning.

    raising the investment tax is one area you could argue, however that is a loophole that needs to be closed, even Warren Buffet has been pushing for this since investors dodge paying their share of taxes.

    Don't worry, I don't spew talking points, I can always bring you facts, figures, quotes to back it up. Just ask. Much like the Obama campaig, there's no need to hide behind propaganda and talking points when the facts speak for themselves.
    Great. So, like I said from the onset, Obama is supporting raising taxes. Of course, it's just on those evil, wealthy people who don't deserve the money that they earned anyways. He's in favor of wealth redistribution, and taking from those who are successfull.

    What was my point to begin with?



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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakey32 View Post
    Great. So, like I said from the onset, Obama is supporting raising taxes. Of course, it's just on those evil, wealthy people who don't deserve the money that they earned anyways. He's in favor of wealth redistribution, and taking from those who are successfull.

    What was my point to begin with?
    your point was raising taxes. Obama is lowering taxes for 99% of the population, while increasing them for a small percentage. Overall keeping taxes roughly the same. Are you in the top percentile?

    He's not redistributing wealth. He's eliminating the bloated tax cut that the rich were given by W, which was more than the cut giving to working class and middle class. Furthermore, this taxation that W put in place, that is going to be eliminated under Obama, has helped lead to the current economic status quo that we are experiencing, probably a good a idea considering the conditions. Also probably a good idea since every time a Reaganomic trickle down policy is tried, it fails miserable, just like now. Obama is listening to economists, not rich people, lobbyists, or corporations. Quite a breath of fresh air.

  13. #43
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    Now other than the obvious fact that people who pay more money in taxes should get more money back if there's a tax cut, and people who pay no taxes shouldn't get any back, do you see the spin here, PHX?

    Obama is going to raise taxes, but he's also going to lower them. Regardless of how he'll do it (even if it's just allowing the tax cuts to expire), he's going to.

    So to run around saying "Obama's never going to raise taxes, you Hannity/Rush/conservative lover" is just as much spin as saying "Obama has no plans whatsoever to lower taxes."
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Now other than the obvious fact that people who pay more money in taxes should get more money back if there's a tax cut, and people who pay no taxes shouldn't get any back, do you see the spin here, PHX?

    Obama is going to raise taxes, but he's also going to lower them. Regardless of how he'll do it (even if it's just allowing the tax cuts to expire), he's going to.

    So to run around saying "Obama's never going to raise taxes, you Hannity/Rush/conservative lover" is just as much spin as saying "Obama has no plans whatsoever to lower taxes."
    If the percentages were even or progressive as the base tax system were this would make sense. However under the Bush plan, the upper income levels were given larger percentage tax cuts. therefore the were given incrementally, not proportionally, larger tax breaks. They should have been given proportional, thus there were uneven and heavily favored the rich. The rich under the obama plan will go back to their previous tax rates. While everyone under $220k will get additional tax cuts, however marginal.

    so to say he is going to raise taxes is quite a misstatement. While he is not redistributing wealth either, he is going back to the basis of our income tax system which is a progressive, incremental system.

  15. #45
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    People in a certain income tax will pay more. For them, their taxes are raised. For someone who pretends to be against spin...
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

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