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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    I would have to say it's the inefficiency and lack of planning from the beginning by W' administration that have created the majority of the mess in Iraq. A bad idea, poorly planned, in addition to ignoring the man who had good ideas and an unbiased view.
    Of course

    another blame America first guy
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Of course

    another blame America first guy
    this isn't blaming america, this is blaming the ignorance and shortsightedness of a few in the administration. Like I've said before, there was an intelligent, unbiased, experienced voice that was ignored and forced out of the administration. The way Colin Powell was treated, ignored, and embarrassed is unacceptable, and the troops and Iraqi civilians have paid the price.

    Don't just jump to the talking point of "liberals hate america", when my opinions are far from that and they also reflect those that many servicemen would support as well. Ask yourself if you and your comrades would rather follow the planning and ideals of Powell or Rumsfeld.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHX-SOXFAN View Post
    this isn't blaming america, this is blaming the ignorance and shortsightedness of a few in the administration. Like I've said before, there was an intelligent, unbiased, experienced voice that was ignored and forced out of the administration. The way Colin Powell was treated, ignored, and embarrassed is unacceptable, and the troops and Iraqi civilians have paid the price.

    Don't just jump to the talking point of "liberals hate america", when my opinions are far from that and they also reflect those that many servicemen would support as well. Ask yourself if you and your comrades would rather follow the planning and ideals of Powell or Rumsfeld.
    BBoy brought up a good point about Iraqi's not helping the situation at all. You could have said yeah they are culpable as well in all this........but you did not do that........didn't even think about doing it

    I don't label you as a liberal.........I am sure you have ideas that some liberals would consider conservative

    At least you are not as bad as moonman, trying to paint OBL as a modern day Nostradamus
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    BBoy brought up a good point about Iraqi's not helping the situation at all. You could have said yeah they are culpable as well in all this........but you did not do that........didn't even think about doing it

    I don't label you as a liberal.........I am sure you have ideas that some liberals would consider conservative

    At least you are not as bad as moonman, trying to paint OBL as a modern day Nostradamus
    the iraqis have certainly had their failures and shortcomings through this process. But when you look at it logically, weren't they set up for failure under the conditions. their country was in chaos, those pressuring them to make progress didn't lead by example in planning, and they were learning on the fly, not by choice either. Its obvious to me that they still have been far more successful in their progress than our own administration has been from before the war until now.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Other than the fact that their president denies the Holocaust and wants to destroy Israel and the West and their Supreme Leader is an extremely radical Muslim?
    OOOHH I am so scared. Since I can remember, there has always been someone wanting to destory Israel and the West. And guess what? We are still here.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    OOOHH I am so scared. Since I can remember, there has always been someone wanting to destory Israel and the West. And guess what? We are still here.
    Because we don't ***** out and say "Wait, let's understand the terrorists and their feelings."

    The last time we tried to be nice was during the Carter administration, and thnat did wonders.

    What if FDR had said "Hey, it's okay, they'll always be people who want to hurt America but we're still here."
    "Compromise, hell! That's what has happened to us all down the line -- and that's the very cause of our woes. If freedom is right and tyranny is wrong, why should those who believe in freedom treat it as if it were a roll of bologna to be bartered a slice at a time?"

    RIP Jesse Helms

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by blenderboy5 View Post
    Because we don't ***** out and say "Wait, let's understand the terrorists and their feelings."

    The last time we tried to be nice was during the Carter administration, and thnat did wonders.

    What if FDR had said "Hey, it's okay, they'll always be people who want to hurt America but we're still here."
    It isn't about being nice, but knowing when someone is talking smack. If this muslim fool of a president every nuke the jews, his people will be in the land of a thousand virgins the next day. The Iranian president will be the poster child of nuclear overkill. It costs nothing to talk. There is always someone talking trash. Let him get a few nukes. If he ever gets ballsy with them, we will show him and whoever the meaning of being truly ***ked.
    FDR attacked when we were attacked. We didn't enter WW II because someone bad mouthed us.
    Last edited by WES445; 07-09-2008 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    OOOHH I am so scared. Since I can remember, there has always been someone wanting to destory Israel and the West. And guess what? We are still here.
    There hasn't always been someone that wanted to destroy Israel and the West that had access to nukes though right??
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    There hasn't always been someone that wanted to destroy Israel and the West that had access to nukes though right??
    Well welcome to the age of the Atom, my friend. If you don't want Iran to have the bomb, what are you willing to do about? Have a draft and invade them? What about the next country, who don't like us, that gets the bomb? Nukes are here and countries are going to get them. Everybody whats the latest. How can we stop the spread of knowlege and all that it brings?

  10. #40
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    If you don't want Iran to have the bomb, what are you willing to do about? Have a draft and invade them?
    There would be no invasion of Iran. The goal would not be regime change, it would be decimating their capabilities to attack anyone.

    That is well within our, and Israel's capabilities.


    Also, about this story in general. Why are they asking us for a timetable? Why don't they give us one and say "We want you out by X...we will have the capability to do X at this time, and will not need you anymore"

    Nukes are here and countries are going to get them. Everybody whats the latest. How can we stop the spread of knowlege and all that it brings?
    Knowledge isn't the hardest part of building a nuke.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Well welcome to the age of the Atom, my friend. If you don't want Iran to have the bomb, what are you willing to do about? Have a draft and invade them? What about the next country, who don't like us, that gets the bomb? Nukes are here and countries are going to get them. Everybody whats the latest. How can we stop the spread of knowlege and all that it brings?
    What can I do about it anyway??

    Why would what I say matter in the whole scheme of things??

    It is Israels F-16's and F-22's that Iran should be worried about

    You have every single country in G-8 asking Iran to stop............so don't act like the US is the only one complaining on this matter
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    South Korea
    Germany
    Japan


    As someone who lives in Japan, I can hereby inform you in good faith and with full confidence that Japan is not occupied by the United States.

    As I understand it, South Korea and Germany aren't either, but hey, I've never been there, so what do I know?
    I blog basketball at Roundball Mining Company///Twitter: @denbutsu

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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    What can I do about it anyway??

    Why would what I say matter in the whole scheme of things??

    It is Israels F-16's and F-22's that Iran should be worried about

    You have every single country in G-8 asking Iran to stop............so don't act like the US is the only one complaining on this matter
    I never saided the US was the only one ***ching about it.
    If Israels bomb Iran, don't you think that could blow up into a big conflict that could push gas prices even higher? All I am saiding is we have to be carefull in the middle east. I would let the Iranians know if they start throwing nukes around, we will destory them. It is the same tactic we use with Russia during the cold war. And yes at one time we consider the Russian irrational. We just can't go after every country on our **it list, who gets a nuke.
    Bet you those F-16's and F-22's don't attack Iran. Iran's nuclear sites are heavily fortify and placed in heavily populated areas. Iran learned from the hard lesson that Israels taught Iraq years ago. It won't be easy or cheap.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenButsu View Post


    As someone who lives in Japan, I can hereby inform you in good faith and with full confidence that Japan is not occupied by the United States.

    As I understand it, South Korea and Germany aren't either, but hey, I've never been there, so what do I know?
    Sad

    Japan Germany and S.Korea were all occupied by troops during wartime

    And we still have large bases and presence in all those countries 50+ years later

    So while it may not be called occupation at this point at one point it was

    The point being if it can happen in those places it can happen in Iraq
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Sad

    Japan Germany and S.Korea were all occupied by troops during wartime

    And we still have large bases and presence in all those countries 50+ years later

    So while it may not be called occupation at this point at one point it was

    The point being if it can happen in those places it can happen in Iraq
    You need to get yourself a good dictionary and look up the word "occupation", man.

    The Japanese constitution was signed on November 3rd, 1946. Obviously, this was after they had been defeated and surrendered. The military was HERE in Japan but it wasn't an OCCUPYING force because at that point we were working WITH and not AGAINST the civilian government and the population of the country, in order to help them rebuild. And since we'd seen to it that the buildup of a domestic military would be unconstitutional in Japan, the bases we established here were not only to expand our security in Asia but to protect Japan as well. (I just went to my friend's place at a residential base last week. To this day Japan foots the bill for maintaining the cost of living of U.S. forces and their families here. We don't pay them rent for using their land; they pay us to keep them safe). And in fact, we never occupied any of the four main islands of Japan (Honshu, Kyushu, Shikoku and Hokkaido). The only territories which may have been considered "occupied" by the U.S. during the war were some of the Okinawan and other South Pacific islands that Japan had laid claim to as their empire expanded.

    We never were really an occupying force in South Korea either, as we were there at the invitation of the South Korean regime which was seeking to defend itself against North Korean attacks after Seoul fell. And like in Japan, once the conflict had ended, the role of the U.S. in South Korea was to help rebuild, and increase security for both S. Korea and the U.S. by establishing bases there.

    Germany was more complicated, of course, due to the slicing and dicing of the country after the war, but again, after it was all said and done (and most specifically after the U.S. had gone far in gaining the trust of the West Germans with the Berlin Airlift), we were there on friendly, not hostile terms, and thus not an occupying force.



    Now, in Iraq, not even the government we more or less installed there wants us around anymore, let alone the vast majority of the citizens. Sure, a lot of people fear what will happen if we pull out in too hasty a manner, but they also believe that our presence in the greatest source of instability there, and it's pretty damn close to nobody who wants us to be there long term. So we are there against the will of the people and if we stay there much longer we will be there against the will of the government as well. We are truly an occupying force.



    So please, don't try to portray me as not knowing what I'm talking about with your little "sad" comment, when it's you who didn't understand what I meant in the first place:

    We never occupied Japan.

    We never occupied South Korea.

    And from Germany's surrender in WWII onward, we never occupied Germany, either.


    But we are, most definitely, an unwelcome occupying force in Iraq.
    I blog basketball at Roundball Mining Company///Twitter: @denbutsu

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