Rod Carew vs. Joe Morgan

[07MVPPatBurrell]

morgan had a couple pujols like OPS+'s in there. also 2 mvp

[Matt-the-great]

Joe Morgan is also a good baseball colour-commentator.....i think the white guy is the play-by-play guy anyway.......

[drty snchz]

morgan

[championmets]

carews swing was sick though, idk if anyone swung the bat as fast as he did

[bagwell368]

carews swing was sick though, idk if anyone swung the bat as fast as he did

McGwire, Bagwell, Sheffied and Manny all swing a good deal harder.

Doesn't matter. Morgan beats Carew in every way, except of course batting average which is a vastly overrated stat.

Rings, SLG, OBP, OPS+, RC/G, GG, SB's, SB/CS ratio. Name the stat - Morgan pounds Carew.

[asufan55]

I think Carew is better

[bagwell368]

I think Carew is better

You do? Prove it? Can't be done can it? One stat is what you have. Every other stat, post season honor, defense, base running, rings, OBP, RC/G, HR, SLG - all of it on Morgan's side - mostly by quite a bit, not just a little.

[flips333]

You do? Prove it? Can't be done can it? One stat is what you have. Every other stat, post season honor, defense, base running, rings, OBP, RC/G, HR, SLG - all of it on Morgan's side - mostly by quite a bit, not just a little.

Yeah but stats can be manipulated. Morgan had more power but was worse in the field. And was surrounded by the best hitters in the league. When you have Bench, Rose, perez, griffy foster, you are going to drive in and score alot of runs. Carew was not exactly surrounded by much.

And most importantly Morgan was and is an *******.

[flips333]

McGwire, Bagwell, Sheffied and Manny all swing a good deal harder.

Doesn't matter. Morgan beats Carew in every way, except of course batting average which is a vastly overrated stat.

Rings, SLG, OBP, OPS+, RC/G, GG, SB's, SB/CS ratio. Name the stat - Morgan pounds Carew.

Ummmmmmmmm Hard and fast are not the same thing my friend in swings. Batting average doesn't matter but it is an important stat when you look at how good a player was.

And his OBP is slightly lower which is kind of sad considering he had tony Perez or Bench hitting behind him for a good portion of his career. (and BTW you take Cincy out of the picture when he was surrounded by those other players and Joe morgan could only beat Carew in the power department. Essentialy if he'd been on the twins all those years he was on the reds this would be a much diff argument. power vs. finesse)

Oh and joe morgan is an *******.

[J-Up= Franchise]

Morgan because I love that guy on ESPN.

[bagwell368]

Yeah but stats can be manipulated. Morgan had more power but was worse in the field. And was surrounded by the best hitters in the league. When you have Bench, Rose, perez, griffy foster, you are going to drive in and score alot of runs. Carew was not exactly surrounded by much.

And most importantly Morgan was and is an *******.

what are you talking about? Show me one single defensive stat or writer that ever said Carew was better in the field then Morgan. Carews career stats look good because he played less than half of his career at 2B, and about 40% as many games as Morgan, while Morgan played until deep into his decline at age 40.

Morgan led off and also batted 3rd in the heyday of the Red Machine which helped. But he also played the 1st 9 years (about 42% of his career) in one of the worst hitters parks ever (Dome) with the most stingy run env since 1920. And when you adjust his stats, he was nearly as productive there then Carew was in his first nine years (look at the adjusted slash at BR, his OBP and SLG were higher than Carew). But in Carew's last 10 years he only had 4 real good years. In Morgan's last 13 he had 7.

Carew early had: Oliva, Killebrew
later Braun, Hisle, Bostock
then Grich, DeCinces, Downing, Lynn, Baylor

some of his later teams stunk, like Morgan's earlier and late teams, but for both it was essentially bad pitching and not bad line-ups.

Then of course there is the baserunning which Morgan wins easily. 689 SB against 162 CS vs. 352 SB against 187 CS. 25 more CS for Carew then Morgan, but Morgan had 347 MORE steals then Carew. Convincing I would say.

5 GG's for Morgan - well above average range, above average in errors compared to other 2B. Carew sadly for him was so weak at 2B (couldn't throw, bad footwork) that he played more games at 1B then 2B. Using contemporary notions of comparing players vs. other players at their positions - Carew was slightly above average at his career for 1B (in some bad years below), whereas Morgan was mammothly ahead of 2B he played against almost every single season.

Then there is career length/results. Morgan played longer, won more hardware - rings and MVP's - what is the argument? Batting average? All this for one stat by you guys? One discredited stat?

Here is the final kicker. How many of you guys actually saw both play - and both play live?? I did. Morgan had a much larger impact on a given game then Carew. Carew was obviously at artisan with the bat. If the title said "best striker" of pitched ball - Carew wins. but it says "Rod Carew vs. Joe Morgan" which means everything including entrails. And on that basis, Carew is deep in the shadow thrown by Morgan. Anyone that says different is repeating what they read or what their father told them. It's not true, and it's never going to be true.

[bagwell368]

Ahhhh a great old thread.

More on Carew vs Morgan:

Morgan played 2527 games at 2B
Carew played 1130 games at 2B (and played 1184 games at 1B)

Adjusted slash (park and era adjustments):

Morgan: .285/.408/.447

Carew: .340/.406/.443

Close.

Peak 10 yr (any order) rWin Shares:

Morgan Carew

10.8     09.5
09.5     07.5
09.3     07.2
09.1     06.7
08.4     06.5
05.6     05.2
05.4     05.0
05.2     04.6
04.9     04.5
04.8     03.5

So, at their best, Morgan was in a higher echelon than Carew

Morgan 97.1 rWAR (20th all time -4th JAWS 2B) > 76.6 for Carew (38th all time - 6th JAWS)

Carew was great at stealing home, but Morgan crushed him as he has almost every base runner all time:

JM 689 SB w/ 162 CS
vs.
RC 352 SB w/ 187 CS

BR era/park Adjusted HR: JM: 291 vs 95 for Carew (with almost 1200 games at 1B in his career - ouch)

3.04 career MVP shares for Morgan > 1.8 for Carew

Carew 0-4 in post season series with a slash of: .220/.291/.300 w/ 2 SB 2 CS in 14 games

Morgan 6-5 in post season series with a slash of .182/.323/.348 w/ 15 SB 2 CS in 50 games

[dodgerdave]

If we're talking about 1972-1977 Joe Morgan, then it's a no-brainer. You pick Joe Morgan. Otherwise, give me Carew.

[bagwell368]

If we're talking about 1972-1977 Joe Morgan, then it's a no-brainer. You pick Joe Morgan. Otherwise, give me Carew.

I'm talking career, and I saw them both - saw Morgan first in 1965 and Carew as a rookie. Morgan is simply better than Carew.

[Jeffy25]

Well this poll is rather hilarious 5 years later.

Carew by miles? lol!