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Top 7
Magic
Big O ( if he is considered a pg)
Zeke
Frasier
Kidd
Stockton
Nash
I dont understand Stockton over Zeke on this board. Zeke was better. Just because he sucked as an executive and is not a nice guy really hurts him here it seems. Or you never saw them both play and are looking at stats. I am not trying to take away from Stockton I think he was awesome and could be 4-6 on my list. I just think Thomas gets overlooked here
His career averages are a little misleading because he rode the bench for a few seasons before coming into his own.
I think it is clear that Magic, the Big O and Stockton take up the top three spots for the point guard position (in whatever order you care to put them in). Nash has a legit case for number 4, though are the top three the race gets pretty close between a number of players, so see Nash slip down as low as 7 or 8 wouldn't be crazy. He is certainly one of the ten best PGs of all time, and arguably top 5. AS for over all, I'm not sure. I wouldn't say top 20, because the list is dominated by centers and power forwards, but I would certainly have him in my top 50.
You have Stockton ranked awfully low considering he has the career record for assists and steals, one of the highest FG% and TS% for a PG and posted some of the highest assists-per game and steals-per game averages of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
I mean, even the Dream Team knew enough to put Stockton ahead of Thomas.
PLEASE tell me how Zeke was better. Please.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
EDIT: I like b@llhog's list a lot
Gary Payton?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
top10 all time.
magic / Stockton / Oscar are clearly ahead of him then it becomes blurry you can rank Nash/ Thomas/Cousy/Kidd / frazier/ Payton/Monroe in any order.
As a life long Stockton fan, I would put Nash probably the only PG who has had such a great game, and rank him under my Stockton as far as life long careers go..so far.(I am talking of active PG's)
They played at the same time. Every year from 84-92ish Thomas was considered the better player and it was not really even a question. I am not looking up stats they played the same position differently. As far as Stockton being on the Dream team I think we all know that was politics with MJ.
Stockton is the Kobe of point guards he was always a very good to great player but never really top in the league. due to his longevity his overall stats are greater than Thomas. Thomas was the unquestioned leader of 2 championship teams. Stockton was Malons robin for 20 years.
I am not saying Stockton was not one of the greatest. I am saying Thomas was better.
Guys who focused mostly on facilitating are often under appreciated. Its just not seen as valuable by casual fans or even regular fans. I was like you...I watched back then and thought Thomas was a much better player. And in some ways he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
But you have to look at what the player does for the team as a whole...not just individually. It goes the same for defensive specialists. They are almost always severely undervalued...unless they make a real name for themselves as a defender (like Rodman or Ben Wallace or Bowen).
Their careers didn't overlap all that much. And either way, I don't buy that. And he might have been "Malone's Robin", but Zeke had multiple all-stars and Hall-of-Famers on his teams. That's no different. In fact, I'd rather have 3 other Hall-of-Famers than Malone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
Stockton made 11 All-NBA teams. Isiah made 5. Stockton made 5 All-Defense teams. Isiah made none.
In terms of public perception, that leads me to believe that the public thought more highly of Stockton.
Throw in the fact he was a FAR better defender and a MUCH more efficient and better scorer, well, I think it's no contest. Isiah maybe is regarded as a better passing, but even that's a misconception.
Stockton's career AST%: 50.2%
Isiah's career AST%: 37.4%
Stockton's career Assist/36: 11.9
Isiah's career Assist/36: 9.2
Isiah literally did nothing better than Stockton. The ONLY trump card he has is his Finals MVP and two rings. I don't think those magically make him a better player, when there really was nothing he was better at Stockton at. Stockton put up more impressive playoff numbers as well.
Isiah was a very explosive and tenacious scorer. He could take over games with that. Stockton could not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManRamForPrez24
Stockton could. Probably not as well, but he could. Chalk that up as the one thing he could do better, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluvious
Still, I'm taking the 51.5/38.4/82.6 shooter over the 45.2/29.0/75.9 shooter any day. I'm taking the 60.8 TS% and the 54.6 eFG% (both absolutely all-time elite numbers) over the 51.6 and 46.5 (really, really bad). I'll admit that a lot of that has to do with their respective team's dependence on their scoring, but that's too huge of a discrepancy.
Zeke could shoot you out of as many games as he'd shoot you in.
Stockton was not a score first player, but he was deadly efficient. Kind of like Paul and Nash. They can take games without trying to score every play.
Stockton's longevity is another factor here. Zeke fell off bad. By the time he was 32 he was well below average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPS
Firstly, Stockton was not "Robin" to Malone's Batman. It was more like Superman and the Green Latern teaming up. But let us say that Stockton was "Robin" to Malone. Had Thomas played alongside Malone his entire career he also would have been "Robin" to Malone. Just because Stockton played with a better power forward than Thomas ever had, doesn't mean Stockton is inferior. Dumars also made the All-NBA third team and defensive teams ahead of Thomas, so perhaps, it would seem, many see Thomas as playing "Robin" to Dumars.
Secondly, you say from 84-92 Thomas was considered better than Stockton. I will agree for the first three seasons of Stockton's career, Thomas was generally considered the better PG. Stockton was coming off the bench at that time and Thomas was in his prime. That was from 85-87. After 87 Stockton was considered by many to be a better PG. You want proof? In 88 Stockton was named to the All-NBA second team, Thomas did not make either All-NBA team. The following season he made the All-NBA second team ahead of Thomas again, and made the All-Defensive second team ahead of Thomas. In 1990 Stockton made his third straight All-NBA second team, Thomas, for those three years did not make any All-NBA teams. In 1991 Stockton and Dumars both made the All-NBA third team and All-Defensvie second team, Thomas failed to make it either. Again, Thomas is Robin to Dumars, and Stockton is ranked ahead of Thomas. And in 1992, the final year of the era you say Stockton was considered inferior to Thomas, Stockton again made the All-NBA second team and the All-Defensive team, while Thomas failed again to make either. That season saw Rodman make the All-NBA third teama and all defensive first team, so again, Thomas is playing Robin to one of his own teammates. So yes, ther IS a question about it. And I have clearly demonstrate that Thomas was NOT seen by many as being better than Stockton. Once Stockton was inserted into the starting line-up, Thomas never got an All-NBA team appearance for the rest of his career.
You are also quite dismissive of Stockton's longevity, suggesting that Stockton only has higher career totals because he played longer. Firstly, that is mistaken, by the end of his 13th season Stockton had amassed more career assists than had Thomas in his entire 13-year career, so even had Stockton only played 13 season, he'd still have more career assists and steals than Thomas. But the point of this issue is that Stockton DID play for so long, which Thomas did not. Stockton's longevity is part of the reason why he is better than Thomas. Thomas played his best basketball at 23, and after that began to decline, quite shraply at the age of 30! Stockton on the other hand, maintained a high level until the age of 32, and only then SLOWLY began to decline, maintaining a 10+ assistper36 until the age of 40! where as Thomas failed to do that ever season after the ripe age of 25!
Then there is the question of shooting. Stockton was CLEARLY the better shooter: .515 FG% on his career, to Thomas's, .452, .384 3PT%, to Thomas's .290, .826 FT% to Thomas's .759 and a .608 TS% to Thomas's .516. And turnovers? Thomas averaged 3.8 turnovers a game to Stockton's 2.8, while it might be important to note that Stockton average more assists per game than did Thomas (10.5 per game to 9.3). Therefore, Stockton's assist-to-turnover ratio was far better than Thomas's.
And steals... Stockton wins that, 2.2 per game to Thomas's 1.9. Pretty impressive on Stockton's part considering he did it with 5 fewer minutes per game.
So what did Thomas do better than Stockton? Nothing. Did he score more points? Yes, because he SHOT more, not because he was a better shooter. Thomas got 1.18 points per shot. Stockton got 1.44. Stockton score more career poitns with fewer career FGA. So yeah... Thomas isn't even a better scorer than Stockton.
So what did Thomas do that Stockton didn't? Win two championships. Yes. But championships are a team effort. Stockton had Malone and Hornacek to work with, Thomas had; Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, Salley, Edwards, Mahorn, Johnson and Aguire. I wonder who had the better cast?
Thomas's championships are the result of an amazing team effort. And don't say that Thomas won them as "the man". He won one Finals MVP, Dumars won the other one, and both seasons they won Dumars made the All-NBA Defensive team ahead of Thomas, while also making the All-NBA team ahead of Thomas, while Rodman won DPOY award during the second title run.
So yeah, I've completely debunked any semblence of an arguement you present. You are wrong on so many levels. And your statement that you are just not going to look at stats becasue they played the same position differently frankly comes across as an admission that you really have no arguement to support yourself.
So, if Thomas was unquestionable considered better by almost everybody until 1992, why did Thomas not make any All-NBA teams after 1987, while Stockton made an AllNBA team every eyar from 1988 until well past Thomas's retirement?
I get why watching Zeke would lead you to believe he was a better player than he actually was, because he would get hot from time to time and take over a game, but I really don't think that besides that occasional outburst there was anything he did better than Stockton. But hey, this is coming from a guy who thinks Zeke is one of the single most overrated players in the history of the NBA.
Him vs. Nash is close, however. I am inclined to give the slight edge to Nash though, even without rings.
As Bruno said (I think), winning a ring with LAL as a clear and obvious contributor would help his legacy. I'd take him over Zeke right now, no contest. But a ring would make it, perhaps, not even a debate.
I was not a Zeke fan or a Stockton fan, I am a Sixer fan. I have no horse in this race. My favorite Sixer PG ever is Mo Cheeks (who was Stockton lite without the 3 point shot >>>>>>> AI (who some compare to Thomas). Simply being a basket ball fan during that era. It could be a east coast bias? I am sure I saw more of Thomas than of Stockton, but again always felt that Thomas was the better of the two.
This is really not a dis of Stockton it is the guy I think is 3rd vs the guy I think is 4-6th. I just feel like Zeke gets sold short around here for what he was to the NBA during his era.