On paper which team you think is better? I vote 2013
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On paper which team you think is better? I vote 2013
On paper 1992.
For me:
Olerud = Edwin (tie)
Alomar > Izturis/Emilio
Reyes > Lee
Lawrie > Gruber
JPA > Borders
Jose = Joe
Devon > Rasmus
Dave Winfield > Adam Lind
92 - 3 players. 2012 - 3 players tie for two.
Rotation:
Both are pretty good. But Romero was so bad, I cant say its overall better (2012 over 1992) on paper. Plus the Jays got Cone in August, so I would say with Morris, Cone, Key and that ridiculous season by Juan Guzman the 1992 Jays get the edge.
Bullpen:
1992 only cause I think Henke and Ward is a better one, two punch than Santos and Janssen.
So for me the final decision is 1992 by a nose...
But I have high hopes for 2012!!
Don't want to count your money before you make it. This '13 has a lot to prove yet...I have them as playoff team but World Series team is very debatable. They got holes. Lind will be either dh or 1b, catcher is weak, 3b needs bounce back year, Bautista needs to be healthy, cf is a head case. The '92 team was quite the lineup. Jimmy Key was our 4th starter, shows how deep rotation was. Look at that pen? Henke- Ward- Wells - Leiter - Hentgen in the pen. Wamco at top of order...they could put up some numbers.
Tough to say. Just trying to line it up position wise (taking a few liberties with guys that are easier to compare to each other):
C- Arencibia and Borders are both fairly poor catchers overall. Borders has the defensive edge, while Arencibia probably adds a bit over Borders offensively.
1B- Olerud and Edwin are different types of first basemen. If Edwin can repeat what he did in 2012, than he is certainly better than 1992 Olerud; but it is probably a bit foolish to count on more out of Edwin than enough to call this a wash.
2B/SS- Reyes and Alomar are similar type-players, and while I am excited about the type of production that Reyes will bring to the top of this order in 2013, I think it's safe to assume that a 24-year-old Alomar has the edge all around.
2B/SS- Manuel Lee vs. Maicer Izturis- Pretty much as close as you can get to a wash.
3B- We don't really know what we're going to get out of Lawrie this year, but I think it is safe to say it will bet better than what Gruber and Kent gave in '92, with the potential to exceed their production significantly.
LF- Melky vs. Maldonado; see the 1B discussion. If Melky can repeat 2012, he looks pretty good stacked up against Maldonado, but Candy had a good year in '92. I don't think anyone can guarantee that Melky will outperform .272/.357/.462 with 20 dingers, and would in fact be quite pleased with that production.
CF- The bats of White and Rasmus are quite similar, with the two guys being roughly equal at the plate. White, however, has the edge on the basepaths and in the field, although Colby is no slouch in CF.
RF- Carter vs. Jose- not to slag one of the all-time Jays heros, but Jose Bautista at the top of his game wipes the floor with Carter. Hell, even 2/3 of a season of Jose in 2012 has the edge over 1992 Carter.
DH- Winfield vs. Lind/???- Lind would have to repeat his 2009 to even sniff Winfield's jockstrap. Enough said here.
So, looks like the two offenses are broadly similar. Hard to say which is better. If Lawrie and Rasmus explore a portion of their upside in 2013 and Edwin/Melky/Jose play to their abilities, and the Jays work out some passable DH arrangement, I think the 2013 offense has a decent advantage over the 1992 squad. If some or all of those caveats fail to pan out, then we are looking at roughly equivalent offenses or potentially a slightly worse 2013 offense than the squad that Cito trotted out there in 1992.
Now the rotation:
Morris vs. Dickey
Key vs. Johnson
Guzman vs. Buehrle
Stottlemeyer vs. Morrow
Wells/Stieb/Cone vs. Romero
While there are some names enshrined in Jays lore on the left column there, I think all would agree (after looking at the 1992 rotation's stats) that this 2013 rotation can exceed the 1992 one fairly handily.
And lastly the bullpen:
The back end of the 1992 bullpen was anchored by Henke and Ward. Those are monstrous shoes for Janssen and Santos to fill. There are some question marks about both guys, but if all goes well they have a chance to come pretty close. As for the rest of the pen- it's hard to say. The rest of the 1992 pen was certainly solid, but not particularly legendary. There are so many question marks with middle/long relief portion of the 2013 Jays' pen that it is hard to say what they will do. Retaining Oliver would go a long way to stabilizing the pen. Suffice it to say the 2013 Jays relievers certainly have a chance to do what the 1992 Jays did.
Long story short- there are lots of variables. But I think even a conservative reading of the comparisons shows the 2013 Jays being at least on the same level as the 1992 Jays, with a reasonable chance to outperform that level.
Carter wasnt even in the top 3 of his team. No where near the level of production Bautista gives you. Not to mention you forgot Maldonado who was one of teh better hitters on the team in 92.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanyo
Also Winfield was>>>>>>>>>>> Lind
As much as i love Joe Carter, he is no where close to the player Bautista is. Carter is one of the most over rated players from the 1980/90'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Sanyo
13 in my opinion is better then 92 at 3rd, ss, 1st, catcher production, rf, juicy melky in lf, cf Rasmus less obp more production. Dh and 2nd is an easy win for 92. 13 bp has potential to be very good but I'll go with 92. A good year/ typical season and the 13 is a better rotation and all around defensively I think 13 may have an edge but I'm not quite sure. Overall team speed is a win for 13.
Very true 303 obp in 92 isn't great for ur 3rd hitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farsight
Joe Carter is absolutely the most over-rated Jays player we've ever had. The 92 team was better as well, not sure how many around here are even old enough to remember but those teams back then were stacked. Think of the Yankees teams from years past, the Jays were an all-star team throughout the lineup and rotation. This current team has great potential but there are far too many question marks right now to make a fair comparison.
Borders vs JPA- Neither are special, but both are servicable. I'll take JPA just for the extra power.
EE vs Olerud- Both are good offensively but very different. Olerud was an OBP machine but not with the power of EE. His defense was great as well though, so I would take Olerud.
Izturis vs Alomar- Alomar is the best all around player I have ever seen in a Jays uniform. Nothing against Izturis, just that it is no contest.
Lawrie vs Gruber- By '92 Gruber had started his decline while '13 should bring us the best Lawrie we have seen yet. I'll take Lawrie.
Reyes vs Lee- Give me Reyes all day.
Maldanado vs Melky- Candy was pretty dandy in '92. I expect very similar out of Melky but with better defense. I'll take Melky.
White vs Rasmus- Pretty similar players. I just think White was the better centerfielder.
Carter vs Bautista- Bautista is better at every aspect of the game if he is healthy. I'll take Jose
Winfield vs Lind- Not even close....give me Winfield.
Morris vs Dickey- Morris pitched 240 innings for us in '92, but despite 21 wins was pretty unimpressive statistically. I'm excited about Dickey and what he should bring us. I'll take him.
Key vs Johnson- Key is one of the more underrated pitchers the jays have had, and while Johnson has great stuff, Key threw well over 200 innings in '92. Cant go wrong with either, but I'll take Key.
Guzman vs Buehrle- Over a career I would take Buehrle. He's been better for longer, but the '92 Guzman was great. He just didn't maintain that level. Buehrle is still very good though and eats innings. I'm calling it a tie.
Stottlemeyer vs Morrow- Morrow is better, but Stottlemeyer has the best slide into third base ever. I'll still take Morrow.
Stieb/Cone/Wells vs Romero/Happ- Stieb was at the end of a great career and was pretty ineffective. Cone really stabalized things though. Romero is a wildcard. He could be great, or he could be like last season. I'd take Cone going into the playoffs which is what the '92 team had.
Santos/Jansen vs Henke/Ward- I really like our '13 bullpen as it sits, but the '92 pen was just better IMO.
Bonifacio/Davis/Cooper/Thole vs Kent/D.Bell/Griffen/Meyers- Jeff Kent got us Cone, so his value can't be underrated here but I'll still go with the 2013 bench led by Bonifacio.
Overall I had it tied after the position players, starting pitchers and bullpen, so the tiebreaker is the bench and I see us having a better bench going into this season. Just my opinion, but fun to break it all down even though it is tough comparing statistics we know from '92 against projections for this coming year.
That was a time when baseball fans weren't so obsessed with how a player got results, as long as he got them. The guy drove in runs. He drove in 100+ every year but one of his 8 years with the Jays. That's why they traded for him. That's what you do in the clean-up spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by rapsjaysfan88
Different era i guess. But that team in 92 was 5 guys who were above to very good players in Winfield, Alomar, Maldanado, Olerud, Carter.And then also had 4 regulars who were poor hitters White, Lee, Borders, and Gruber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halladay
This years team has Bautista, EE, Reyes, Cabrera, Lawrie who you could argue collectively are better than those 5 guys (Winfield, Alomar, Maldanado, Olerud, Carter). It would be close but i think that the slight edge goes to these 5. As for the rest, Borders in 92 is pretty much JPA now w/ **** defence (comparatively). Which leaves Lee, Gruber, White compared to Izturis, Lind, Rasmus/Gose, trictly looking at 92 to this group I think they are similar but again i think i might give the edge to this group.
Regardless this year should be fun.
PS. If gose can have turn into the same player as White on the field (defense) and continue his patience (10% BB%) at the plate along with moderate power (10-15 HR) then he will be a star here.
Just for fun:Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysFan87
Alomar: 6.6 WAR
White: 6.4 WAR (crazy, somewhat unrealistic D numbers)
Winfield: 4.3 WAR
Olerud: 3.5 WAR
Carter: 3.4 WAR
Lee: 3.2 WAR
Maldonado: 2.7 WAR
Those would be the top 7 hitters on the 92 squad. You might be able to argue that this squad has better elite players (Bautista, Reyes, Encarnacion vs Alomar/White/Winfield). But I think the 92 position players would have been much better overall. But I guess it depends on your preference of depth in the lineup or higher end talent but several below average guys.
Keep in mind that only 2 Jays last year > 3 WAR, and Lawrie probably would have if he was healthy @ 2.9.
You're selling Lee/White/Gruber short. They're a lot better than Izturis/Lind/Rasmus. Borders I agree, but the others, I think it's no contest as White/Lee/Gruber are better than Lind/Rasmus/Izturis.Quote:
It would be close but i think that the slight edge goes to these 5. As for the rest, Borders in 92 is pretty much JPA now w/ **** defence (comparatively). Which leaves Lee, Gruber, White compared to Izturis, Lind, Rasmus/Gose, trictly looking at 92 to this group I think they are similar but again i think i might give the edge to this group.
I agree that Alomar was outstanding. White was great on the D but his bat was below average. The best positional players (in terms of their stick) were Winfield, Alomar, Olerud, Maldonado. Then carter, then way down there White. What doesnt come close to that WAR without that 33 FLD. Nonetheless I think in the overall Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Reyes, Cabrera are as a whole better than Alomar, Winfield, Maldonado, Olerud and Carter. Close but the edge to the current group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twitchy
.255/.314/.414 (LIND)Quote:
You're selling Lee/White/Gruber short. They're a lot better than Izturis/Lind/Rasmus. Borders I agree, but the others, I think it's no contest as White/Lee/Gruber are better than Lind/Rasmus/Izturis.
.229/.275/.352 (Gruber)
.263/.343/.316 Lee
.248/.303/.390 (White)
.248/.303/.390 Rasmus
.256/.320/.315 Izturis
The players are in the white beside there stat lines in 92 and 13. I think you can see by just quickly going through the numbers how similar they were. ANd its curious to see just how riduclous White was in the field to get his war that high.
I like 2013's team.