How is there any hope ?

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Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly

I think you're drawing a ton of conclusions based on pretty simplistic logic, but we'll see how it all pans out.

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Harvey showed Ace like ability in albeit limited innings this year.

I know teams will make adjustments but this kid is the real deal. I see him being a 15 game winner by 2014.

Wheeler has all the ability in the world, if he keeps his control in order there is no reason why those two couldn't anchor a very good rotation and very quickly with the pieces that are already there.

As for drawing a ton of conclusions well that's the prospect business in general but these guys seem like they come as advertised much like Wright and Reyes were when they came up.

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Originally Posted by metswon69

Look at Wright's and Reye's stats in 2004...

The Mets were confident in what they had 2 potential cornerstone pieces and began to build a team around them.

Pedro Martinez, Carlos Beltran for 2005.

That 2005 won 83 games, then they made those splashes in 2006 for LoDuca, Delgado, etc etc which was one game from the WS.

It's an incremental process.

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Exactly, incrementally glacial, progress is far too slow to contend consistently, they never do enough over the Winter to compete. Always too many holes at once, always 2-3 players short.

The Mets are historically terrible sports org. therefore it's no use thinking 'Hey we think we can compete' you have to build a complete team, the Coupons will never do that, they don't have the ambition or will.

By this time next year after what I think will be another disappointing start to the FA off-season, I think people will be talking about 2015, not 2014.

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Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly

Metsblog.

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3 different writers believe Dickey can be had for 3 different prices that he hasn't signed for yet. I still don't see how this means "Mets are being cheap". And, if the Mets can bring back good young players for him, I'm fine with that. Its what teams do with 38 y/o players when they finish in 4th place. I don't think anything there makes them cheap.

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Stand pat move. Failing to resign DW would have meant attendance apocalypse.

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"Stand pat move" they PAID HIM. You can't say "they won't pay anybody" when they just gave out the biggest contract in team history.

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There never is a big FA who looks a fit according to the Mets.

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That was according to me. Who did they miss the boat on?

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Originally Posted by metswon69

Harvey showed Ace like ability in albeit limited innings this year.

I know teams will make adjustments but this kid is the real deal. I see him being a 15 game winner by 2014.

Wheeler has all the ability in the world, if he keeps his control in order there is no reason why those two couldn't anchor a very good rotation and very quickly.

As for drawing a ton of conclusions well that's the prospect business and when you build your team around prospects being at the forefront of the next generation of your team you take that chance.

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I have no idea what TORP is.

The problem I have with your conclusions is not really about Harvey and Wheeler, it's about lining all the ducks in a row and making us a contender based on flimsy logic.

There's no hope, but it's all we have.

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Originally Posted by Sandman

3 different writers believe Dickey can be had for 3 different prices that he hasn't signed for yet. I still don't see how this means "Mets are being cheap". And, if the Mets can bring back good young players for him, I'm fine with that. Its what teams do with 38 y/o players when they finish in 4th place. I don't think anything there makes them cheap.

"Stand pat move" they PAID HIM. You can't say "they won't pay anybody" when they just gave out the biggest contract in team history.

That was according to me. Who did they miss the boat on?

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Go back and read, they would not give him 2/25.

Of course it's a stand pat move, he's been here all his career. The team is not 1 iota better this week than it was last week.

They could have signed players to help the team, that's the point.

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Originally Posted by Sandman

3 different writers believe Dickey can be had for 3 different prices that he hasn't signed for yet. I still don't see how this means "Mets are being cheap". And, if the Mets can bring back good young players for him, I'm fine with that. Its what teams do with 38 y/o players when they finish in 4th place. I don't think anything there makes them cheap.

"Stand pat move" they PAID HIM. You can't say "they won't pay anybody" when they just gave out the biggest contract in team history.

That was according to me. Who did they miss the boat on?

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Go back and read, they would not give him 2/25.

Of course it's a stand pat move, he's been here all his career. The team is not 1 iota better this week than it was last week.

They could have signed players to help the team, that's the point.

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Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly

I have no idea what TORP is.

The problem I have with your conclusions is not really about Harvey and Wheeler, it's about lining all the ducks in a row and making us a contender based on flimsy logic.

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TORP= Top of the rotation.

I think i made my point clear and it's not flimsy logic..

Similar results from a team that could possibly be better than the ones in which they spent 140 million to acquire. Those same team with a move here or more there could have made a push for the playoffs.

Anchored by a better rotation, a better bullpen (because for all we know Edgin, Familia, Mejia could be lights out next year) and where they would still need help would be positionally in 2014 and going forward.

But you are talking about a roster that now is committed drastically less payroll with the ability to improve at threshold 75 to 80 to 85 million dollars.

It's restructuring and hopefully producing similar results for a lot less money. If they can find a way to do that it will allow them to address the other areas they are deficient in.

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Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly

Go back and read, they would not give him 2/25.

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Where?

There are multiple reports with conflicting numbers. I don't see how one is more credible than the other.

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Of course it's a stand pat move, he's been here all his career. The team is not 1 iota better this week than it was last week.

They could have signed players to help the team, that's the point.

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You can argue as much as you want about how much they needed to, or how the team didn't improve, but the team spent more money than they ever have on any other player. The team improved from no David Wright in 2014 to +David Wright in 2014.

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Originally Posted by metswon69

TORP= Top of the rotation.

I think i made my point clear and it's not flimsy logic..

Similar results from a team that could possibly be better than the ones in which they spent 140 millions to acquire.

Anchored by a better rotation, a better bullpen (because for all we know Edgin, Familia, Mejia could be lights out next year) and where they would still need to fix the team would still be positionally.

But you are talking about a roster that now is committed drastically less payroll and should have the ability to add significant payroll at a threshold of 75-80 million dollars.

It's restructuring and becoming hopefully producing similar results for a lot less money. If they can find a way to do that it will allow them to address the areas they are deficient in.

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Really? I would have guessed:

TORP: Team's Overall Run Production
TORP: Trouble On the Reading Phillies
TORP: Terrible Or Really Pitiful
TORP: The Outfielders Rarely Produce
TORP: Time Our Runners Please (because they're so slow)
TORP: They Only Ruin Pitchers
TORP: Take Our Righthanded Pitchers

Top of the rotation wasn't even top of mind.

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Originally Posted by fanofclendennon

Really? I would have guessed:

TORP: Team's Overall Run Production
TORP: Trouble On the Reading Phillies
TORP: Terrible Or Really Pitiful
TORP: The Outfielders Rarely Produce
TORP: Time Our Runners Please (because they're so slow)
TORP: They Only Ruin Pitchers
TORP: Take Our Righthanded Pitchers

Top of the rotation wasn't even top of mind.

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Serious literal question...

How long did it take you to think that out?

And the more facetious one..

Are you trying to tell me something? :D

I'll stick to my TORP definition either way lol

That's my ultimate point though, that this team should have a roster that produces similarly in the W-L column for a lot less money after next year.

If that's the case they can turn a 73 win team into 85 win team in one offseason (who can certainly compete for that second wild card if not more if they can win a few more games) if they are willing to dish out the cash to get the right players.

I don't see them falling off the face of the planet record wise next year because they lost Scott Hairston. Even the cumulative rotation results of Wheeler, Harvey, Niese and Gee could withstand the loss of Dickey probably sooner than later. Niese should improve and i believe the same with Gee.

Wheeler and Harvey are two aces in my mind and will be those top of the rotation guys sooner than later.

I know it's presumptive but i have confidence in our rotation to produce similar if not better results as a whole going forward.

That should give us the ability to focus on other areas of this team.

Well, thankfully the world ends in a couple of weeks...

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Originally Posted by Dr Voodoo

Well, thankfully the world ends in a couple of weeks...

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Mets trade Victor Zambrano jersey for Stephen Strasburg 12/21 book it.

2013 is a lot like 1985 IMO we are starting to see some young pieces come together but we are still a few short (basically an entire outfield and bullpen) but there will be some positives

also fellow mets fans get off REVERE's johnson he is mediocre he is not an impact player or difference maker he is a slap hitter who isnt great at getting on base and cannot throw