How long will it take?

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Originally Posted by bagwell368

But Melo will fail in the NBA now which can only damage his trade value and perhaps his self confidence.

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His trade value isn't increasing with his current performances in Maine either...

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Originally Posted by bagwell368

Maybe later on if the season is really lost and he's more prepared it could work, but, I doubt the feedback or value added will be worth the effort - until the Coaches that understand him agree he's ready for the shot.

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Kris Joseph needs reps, reps and reps where Maine is the best place for him... Melo needs coaching, coaching and more coaching where Boston will help him, IMO... The D-League is fast and sloppy which IMO hurts Melo... Giving him reps against KG, Collins and Wilcox in practice is a lot better for him than Ayer and Vandermeer in Maine... I bet he would progress a lot faster in Boston than in Maine, even if he doesn't log in any minutes...

DA and Doc really should have brought a real big man coach once they signed Melo... Relying on KG as the "big man coach" was a bad idea...

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Originally Posted by Forever35

His trade value isn't increasing with his current performances in Maine either...



Kris Joseph needs reps, reps and reps where Maine is the best place for him... Melo needs coaching, coaching and more coaching where Boston will help him, IMO... The D-League is fast and sloppy which IMO hurts Melo... Giving him reps against KG, Collins and Wilcox in practice is a lot better for him than Ayer and Vandermeer in Maine... I bet he would progress a lot faster in Boston than in Maine, even if he doesn't log in any minutes...

DA and Doc really should have brought a real big man coach once they signed Melo... Relying on KG as the "big man coach" was a bad idea...

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The bolded part brings us back to the desirable difficulties and productive failures discussion in the "roster" thread. You are 100% spot on with ^^^ this.

That said, Melo has made some strides playing for Maine, but it makes no sense not to take full advantage of him spending as much time in / with Boston possible.

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Originally Posted by Opalmerr

We'll just have to disagree.

I can see no harm whatsoever in playing Melo a few minutes to test the waters. It's going to have to occur at some point in time, why not now? There is free movement for him between Boston and Maine. Quite frankly, from a business / investment standpoint, the Celtics would be and are remiss in not taking full advantage of this. But short of a mandate to Doc from DA to play him you won't need to worry about it happening soon or on a regular basis.

You are worried about what others might think? Seriously? It's not exactly a secret the Celtics aren't very good at the 4 or 5 spots. The Celtics KNOW they are not good at rebounding - they talk about it all the time, don't they? Doc called them "soft" in reference to defending the paint / rim and rebounding. Everyone openly talks about the need to bring in another big - some of the veterans reportedly lobbied DA to bring in Martin. I hate stating the obvious, but this part of your position is really quite weak. Just saying...

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No, I see your point. I just think your missing big picture. I see no way it helps Celtics (long/ short) or Fab Melo (long/ short).

They have played Fab a few mins and he hasn't preformed, he hasn't shown any real signs he brings any NBA team anything other than size (right now).

" why not now ", well that's simple. Celtics are trying to win this year (re- sign KG/ PP age/ sign Terry). Celtics brought these guys back and re-signed Bass and signed Terry/ Lee to make a run this year.

Melo isn't a this year option, he is a "down the road/ wait and see" project as everyone with Boston has stated.

"worried what others might think" YES, let me explain. What does that say to your players (IE -Hey KG/ PP this is all we are giving you/ your own team). These guys have ego's and are extremely competitive. KG re-signed im sure with the understanding he would receive more help.

Second, yes you think your awful now. You send Melo against Miami and James they will emberrass him, thus destory your chances and his to develop more quickly.

Last, you lose money when your telling your bus. partners your answer is a guy from D League. It make 0% sense from money stand point. Teams/ owners want that playoff money, thier partners also want.....yes money. Fab brings you zero dollors right now.

BirdFan.... good discussion.

We'll just disagree.

You might find the desirable difficulties and productive failures, accelerated learning studies interesting reading if you have an opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Opalmerr

BirdFan.... good discussion.

We'll just disagree.

You might find the desirable difficulties and productive failures, accelerated learning studies interesting reading if you have an opportunity.

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Good discussion, you always have great post/ idea's.:)

I find the best sorts of teams have 8 guys that get most of the minutes. When you have old guys and have to increase that to 9 or 10, they better be a cohesive team. Cohesion breaks down or doesn't exist with too many inter changing pieces - in particular with lots of new players on the team - like ours.

What does Doc do? Get Bradley on board, affix the rotation hopefully to 8 guys, and try and deal away (DA) any banished pieces to both improve the team and get rid of any belly achers.

My 8:

KG, Mr. X, Wilcox, Green, PP, Terry, Rondo, Bradley

subs: Sully, Barbosa, Joseph

Guys to deal: Bass, Lee - for Mr. X (add picks to build up what we get), consider PP in deal if we can get a really great 5/4.

Cut: Collins

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Originally Posted by bagwell368

I find the best sorts of teams have 8 guys that get most of the minutes. When you have old guys and have to increase that to 9 or 10, they better be a cohesive team. Cohesion breaks down or doesn't exist with too many inter changing pieces - in particular with lots of new players on the team - like ours.

What does Doc do? Get Bradley on board, affix the rotation hopefully to 8 guys, and try and deal away (DA) any banished pieces to both improve the team and get rid of any belly achers.

My 8:

KG, Mr. X, Wilcox, Green, PP, Terry, Rondo, Bradley

subs: Sully, Barbosa, Joseph

Guys to deal: Bass, Lee - for Mr. X (add picks to build up what we get), consider PP in deal if we can get a really great 5/4.

Cut: Collins

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Very realistic - write a letter to Ainge please

There is a lot of talent on this roster. Yes, it is thin in places - missing a quality 6'10" big that can at least defend and rebound. That doesn't change the fact that this team has a lot of firepower. Doc wanted bench schoring and Danny delivered it.

The problem is, they are not playing well together. Call it trust issues or poor chemistry. They are playing as individuals and not as a team. That is, the players are giving good effort but the team has so little to show for it because it is not collective effort.

Who's to blame?

Hard to say from a distance. It might be the personalities just don't mesh. It is certainly possible there is discontent in the locker room as this team is 12-12 and some of the guys have not gotten a lot of opportunity.

My hunch is that Doc came in under-prepared for this roster. He has them running the same basic sets on both sides of the ball that they have run for the past five years with a roster truly constructed to "play small". This roster must play up-tempo to be successful. There needs to be a lot of open court opportunities. It is a roster comprised of guys that can pressure opponents with the pace of their offense, maybe more so than one that can pressure with their defense. With the notable exception of Paul Pierce.

All the iso's run for Paul Pierce leaves these other talented and proven scorers standing around on offense. That's fine if Pierce is delivering and the team is winning - difficult to argue or complain when the team is winning - but this team is not very good right now. It certainly is not performing anywhere close to its envisioned potential.

I had high hopes for this team mainly because I thought it would play to the strengths of its best player - Rajon Rondo. Lots of defensive pressure and run, run, run every chance it got. Terry, Barbosa, Green, Wilcox, Lee... I honestly thought most of Rondo's assists would be going to these guys on the break off turnovers, rebounds and even off made baskets. Instead, KG in a reduced role is the recipient of most of Rondo's assists and Pierce is second as the C's continue to play a plodding half court style. It's a bit like asking a Thoroughbred to plow a field where some of these guys are concerned. Thoroughbreds and draft horse are both magnificent animals but should never be asked to perform each others work or perform together.

Something has to give.

For me it comes down to two people, Doc Rivers and Paul Pierce. I don't attach blame for this seasons poor performance directly to either. Paul Pierrce is an all-time great and can still produce in the right environment - but make no mistake, that environment is vanishing. Doc is a great coach but sometimes a coach and a team just are not a good fit for one another. This is what I think is happening here.

Doc must play to the strengths of this roster / Pierce's role must be reduced in favor of those that can get out and run wih Rondo.

Doc must be given toys whose strengths he knows how to use / The roster must be revamped to the extent in can be to play half-court basketball with Pierce.

Doc must go and / or Pierce must be traded.

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Originally Posted by bagwell368

I find the best sorts of teams have 8 guys that get most of the minutes. When you have old guys and have to increase that to 9 or 10, they better be a cohesive team. Cohesion breaks down or doesn't exist with too many inter changing pieces - in particular with lots of new players on the team - like ours.

What does Doc do? Get Bradley on board, affix the rotation hopefully to 8 guys, and try and deal away (DA) any banished pieces to both improve the team and get rid of any belly achers.

My 8:

KG, Mr. X, Wilcox, Green, PP, Terry, Rondo, Bradley

subs: Sully, Barbosa, Joseph

Guys to deal: Bass, Lee - for Mr. X (add picks to build up what we get), consider PP in deal if we can get a really great 5/4.

Cut: Collins

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You hit the nail on the head with this one, and this is the exact reason why I also believe the Celtics are a dangerous team come playoff time, once the rotation tighten up.

My dream rotation would be (barring no trade and all players healthy):

Starters
Rondo- 36mpg
Bradley- 34mpg
Pierce- 32mpg
Bass- 26mpg
KG- 30mpg

Bench
Terry- 30mpg
Green- 30mpg
Sullinger- 24mpg

Wilcox- DNP
Lee- DNP
Barbosa- DNP
Collins- DNP

This unit could be really productive if they played these minutes night in and night out... once others start to get integrated... things get all of out whack on defensive rotations and players playing out of position.

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Originally Posted by Celticsfan2007

You hit the nail on the head with this one, and this is the exact reason why I also believe the Celtics are a dangerous team come playoff time, once the rotation tighten up.

My dream rotation would be (barring no trade and all players healthy):

Starters
Rondo- 36mpg
Bradley- 34mpg
Pierce- 32mpg
Bass- 26mpg
KG- 30mpg

Bench
Terry- 30mpg
Green- 30mpg
Sullinger- 24mpg

Wilcox- DNP
Lee- DNP
Barbosa- DNP
Collins- DNP

This unit could be really productive if they played these minutes night in and night out... once others start to get integrated... things get all of out whack on defensive rotations and players playing out of position.

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this wont get us anywhere, for atleast 18 minutes we would have a "bigmen" lineup of bass/sully, bass/green or sully/green which we already saw is awful on defense and not much better on offense.

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Originally Posted by Celticsfan2007

You hit the nail on the head with this one, and this is the exact reason why I also believe the Celtics are a dangerous team come playoff time, once the rotation tighten up.

My dream rotation would be (barring no trade and all players healthy):

Starters
Rondo- 36mpg
Bradley- 34mpg
Pierce- 32mpg
Bass- 26mpg
KG- 30mpg

Bench
Terry- 30mpg
Green- 30mpg
Sullinger- 24mpg

Wilcox- DNP
Lee- DNP
Barbosa- DNP
Collins- DNP

This unit could be really productive if they played these minutes night in and night out... once others start to get integrated... things get all of out whack on defensive rotations and players playing out of position.

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Maybe it's me, but I think Wilcox is playing well this year.

Also during the regular season I think you have too many minutes for KG, PP, JT.

Bass has never gotten over the hump IMO. He's a good back-up, but a liability as a starter IMO. I'd like to see Green, Wilcox, Sullinger, and anyone we deal for eat up Bass's time.

“Right now we have no identity, that’s simple and plain,” Pierce said. “We’re supposed to be a defensive team, [but] give up 100 points every night, inconsistent on both ends of the court. We’re searching, trying to find out who we want to be for this season.”

This ^ a quote found on another site that I am unsure I am allowed to link here.

It basically says the same thing I have been harping on, but it's interesting to see it from PP. I would suggest the team has conflicting identities. The KG led PP augmented defense oriented plodding half court attack identity and the champing at the bit wanting to run identity of layers like Rondo, Barbosa, Green, Wilcox, Lee....

it all adds up.....bass has had a decline yr, too many turnovers, not a true PG other than rondo and lee's 3% has gone down more than 10%. what is most frustrating to me is how inconsistent green has been...

rondo has been terrific for the most part, i dont think kg and paul are part of the problem, they are not as good as they once were but can still be key players on a championship team IMO, they need more help.

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Originally Posted by Rain City

it all adds up.....bass has had a decline yr, too many turnovers, not a true PG other than rondo and lee's 3% has gone down more than 10%. what is most frustrating to me is how inconsistent green has been...

rondo has been terrific for the most part, i dont think kg and paul are part of the problem, they are not as good as they once were but can still be key players on a championship team IMO, they need more help.

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There's plenty of help, imo. Part of the inconsistency in certain players is due to Doc's playing them inconsistent minutes and clearly defining their roles.

Maybe you meant they need different help? Different type of player than has been brought in?

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Originally Posted by Rain City

it all adds up.....bass has had a decline yr, too many turnovers, not a true PG other than rondo and lee's 3% has gone down more than 10%. what is most frustrating to me is how inconsistent green has been...

rondo has been terrific for the most part, i dont think kg and paul are part of the problem, they are not as good as they once were but can still be key players on a championship team IMO, they need more help.

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I have to disagree a bit here:

Rondo the good: has never shot J's with the confidence and accuracy he is showing lately. So to some extent now we can see he can up his scoring to say 18-20 a night w/o wrecking the flow of the offense (or hurt offensive efficiency). He'll never be the #1 option, but if he's #3, it could be a good team. His passing is still very high end.

Rondo the bad: However his on ball D has been the worst of his career. It's scary bad. Some of it comes from the lack of towers inside to erase his mistakes and gambles, but, he just doesn't seem to have the passion for it. Defense is about 65% hard work/effort, 25% speed (or strength if a big is in question), and 10% brains. Rondo has the speed and brains, but the effort? No so much these days. Let's hope that isn't what he thinks the purview of a leader is.

KG: The Lion in Winter. He's taken a step into the shadows to help Rondo take over the team (sadly its not working well). He's not playing with the same fire in his 18th year - part mental and part physical. I would be 0% surprised if he retired after this year. If the Celts don't get a credible big to stand next to him, why should he come back? The money - it wouldn't be anything else.

PP: his decline is hitting him full in the face - the team too. He can still shoot, but his iso's fly in the face of what the team needs as someone else pointed out earlier. It's like someone add 7 ounces each to his sneakers from last year.

Terry: So far he's not giving close to what Ray Allen gave last year.

Green: That contract is a huge, but, he's got to get his crack to run with the starters to make it work. The current handling of him, and his response is either pathetic or one slot over from it.

Cures:

Team needs a direction (KG has to come back from abdication). This is outside the scope of this post, but Rondo isn't stacking up as a leader.

Green has to start

PP has to go to the bench and/or be dealt

We need a credible big if not two.

We need a shorter rotation (which we'll have after a deal or two).

Doc has to do what he seems not happy to do. Throw away the book, the plans, and his hopes, and roll up his sleeves with a new combination, and coach them to competency on D (sweat on every play), and O (going to have to move the ball better when not in Rondo's hands, and Rondo must become a target at times, not just the distributor - it makes it too easy on defenses when he's just dealing assists.