4 out of his 5 years have been ****** period.
Josh Thole had a .327 wOBA, 103 wCR+ in 2010 and .307 wOBA, 94 wRC+ in 2011 and you and is 3 years younger and you are ready to say he is not even a major league catcher, so why are those numbers ok when Nick ****ing Hundley does it and mean nothing when Josh Thole does it?
In those 2 years Thole had a 2.5 WAR and Hundley in the 2 years you mention had a 2.1 WAR.
Last year Hundley managed a negative WAR, so please if you want to change a catcher at least mention a guy that is clearly better than the guy they have, Hundley is not that not even close.
That year by Hundley looks like an anomaly and nothing else he has done makes me think that he could duplicate that.
Sorry that's not ****** period. The only bad year was 2008 where he was a rookie.
I don't care that Thole was able to get on base before he ****ing sucks now and has no power. He's gotten worse and worse by the season, not to mention he is another LHB we don't need. Give me the guy that can hit the ball out of the ballpark in Petco and plays good defense. He won't cost a ton to get either.
The reason why Hundley sucked all year is because he hurt his knee in April, and it lingered with him for the whole season until he had surgery in August. We need some POWER, no more slap hitters like Thole who doesn't even get on base anymore. He has no upside because his tools suck.
BTW, Thole had a .327 wOBA in what, 227 plate appearances? Are you kidding me with that?
That is nowhere near a large enough sample size to say he is that good. I've got over 700 plate appearances that says Thole sucks and should be a back-up at best.
At least Hundley has put together 2 above average seasons together with one very good year as well.
Originally Posted by YoungStuna28
Nick Hundley had 289 PA in 2009 and that is a big enough sample size for you to consider what he did more important than what Thole did in 60 less at bats?
If you combined the at bats they had in those 2 years Thole had 613 PA and Hundley had 596, so that is about the same number of at bats for both.
Again you dismissed what Thole did and are praising what Hundley did. Then you kill Thole for his horrible season and are basically giving Hundley a pass for an even more horrible year just because he had a fluke year.
Once more if you are going to dump Thole get a guy in here who is clearly better, Hundley is not that guy.
Just to make my final point even with his 1 good year this is what Hundley's career numbers are.
.238/.298/.390, .301 wOBA, 90 wRC+
Thole's career numbers are
.261/.331/.290, .295 wOBA, 85 wRC+
Hardly superior numbers by Hundley for me to think he is a guy the Mets should target to improve their catching situation.
Hundley essentially played exactly the same in 2010 than he did in 2009 so that's two years of above average catcher performance. All Thole has in 2010, and it was only 227 PA. 2011 Thole was a below average catcher and this year he sucked.
I don't get why you don't understand the notion of buying low? There's no such thing as a fluke in baseball, you still have to mash and Hundley did that in 2011. Thole has never mashed, and will never mash period.
I bash Thole because he is not the player we need. He has no power in a punchless line-up, and his on-base skills aren't even good anymore. Teams have figured out how to pitch him. He's perfectly healthy and has sucked, that is not debatable.
I get the notion of buying low on a guy that has a good track record and has hit a rough spot, but buying low on a guy who has one fluky year? No that is not buying low, that is buying and hoping for a miracle.
Also like I showed their numbers are almost the same career wise, so again show me how Hundley is this superior catcher to Thole? If he was a guy that had a number of pretty good years and has hit a rough patch and was attainable then yeah I would agree, but Hundley is not that guy, He has similar career numbers to Thole and is NOT an upgrade.
If their is a guy that fits that bill it might be Geovany Soto who might be non tendered.
His year in 2008 and this year obviously bring his career numbers down. From 2009-2011 he blows what Thole did out of the water in 2010-2011. Why don't you understand that Hundley was slightly above average offensive at catcher in both 2009 and 2010? Especially in a tough ballpark like Petco. That .168 ISO is promising.
Here is my position for position breakdown for what I think we should do.
1) Re-sign R.A. Dickey: The man might turning 38 but he just had a cy young candidate 20 win season, he has atleast 2 dominate years, or 3 great years left. May very well be a quality starter well into his 40's.
2) Trade Johan Santana for a prospect: I love Johan simply for that no-hitter that he finally gave to us this season but if we are gonna not increase our salary then lets make better use of the salary we have. Santana's 24 million for next season can definitely go elsewhere to make us better.
3) Jon Niese stays: He quietly had a very nice season, he will only be 26 and he's just entering his prime.
4) Matt Harvey starts: He showed after being called up why he is raved about, some thought it was overdue some thought it was rushed, but he was ready. We have a lot to look forward to in Harvey.
5) Dillon Gee stays a starter: You can hate on Gee if you want but you cant deny his consistency. A great quality #4 or #5 pitcher to have, he's just entering his prime and I expect him to give us what he always has. Consistent and solid end of the rotation pitching.
6) This leaves us with one spot, I say give it open to whoever pitches the best in spring (Mchugh? Young? Pelf?) to hold down the spot for a little till Wheeler gets some more time in at AAA. Wheeler should enter the starting 5 eventually in 2013.
Our relief pitching needs work. First things first, cut loose with Frankie Francisco, he just needs to go. So new closer? Bobby Parnell. Give him his shot to prove himself. Set up man? Jenrry Mejia, he throws hard and has great upside! Future franchise closer might be a possibility. Long relief? I still like Chris Young here but he might find a guaranteed starting spot in free agency, if thats the case Collin Mchugh would be the choice; like I mentioned they are both possibilities for #5 but only till Wheeler is ready. With what he have and throwing a guy like Mejia into the pen we might be ok. However, I do think we need to bring in two new names to the pen that are proven to be quality relievers, whether it be by trade or free agency.
Sign AJ Pierzynski.
He is the perfect catcher for this club. He will demand his pitchers to stay on point, the perfect catcher to help guys like Wheeler and Harvey. Him and Dickey will be great mentors and he always gets the best out of all his pitchers.
Ike Davis stays.
Ike started of hitting horrible but he picked it up in the second half and he hit over 30 home runs (32). He showed that he has 40 home run potential, and I fully expect a great year from Ike next year. Plus he is still only 25.
No Daniel Murphy? I'll get into that later. Valdespin showed promise in his rookie season, he is exciting to watch with great speed. Even showed some pop in his bat, the pipe dream of moving him out of his position to the outfield needs to end. We tried that with Murphy and Duda and the defense they provided has left us with nightmares, V-spin can handle 2nd base and there is room for growth. That is why he's my pick for 2nd base, and if he struggles we have Reese Havens waiting for a chance.
David is a met, he is the face of this franchise and we cant afford to lose him. He'll be 30 next season, still in his prime, and he deserves to be locked up to be a met for the rest of his career.
Tejada will be 23 next season and has already proven himself to be a solid everyday short stop. Ruben will be our short stop most likely for many years to come and with his great work ethic we should be happy about that.
He hit 20 homers, wont cost much, and is a better option than Jason Bay. I rather Bay be the 4th outfielder and start Hairston. Hairston batted .295 with 12 homers vs left handed pitching and .235 with 8 homers vs righties. While people argue he should be a 4th outfielder do to his struggles against righties I disagree because .235 with 8 homers is better than Jason Bay, and who knows maybe as a 4th outfielder Bay will provide us with something.
Matt Den Dekker
Den Dekker is the same age as Kirk and the more talented of the two, and now its his turn. He is already being called a "major league center fielder". He has been compared to Jim Edmonds for his rare combination of speed, great defense, and power. His one problem is strikeouts with his long swing, but we can work on that on the fly.
Justin, wait for it, Upton!
Trade Jeurys Familia, Wilmer Flores, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Lucas Duda, and Daniel Murphy for Justin Upton.
The younger Upton brother will be 25 next season and is just entering his prime years as a big leaguer. Getting his without giving up Wheeler or Harvey might be a reach to some but I think for a team who still wants to contend in Arizona this is a good deal. They get Duda who will replace Upton in right and will hit well in Arizona, Then Daniel Murphy who will also help for now as will Kirk. Familia and Flores are stil very promising prospects, Flores can be the D'backs shortstop/3rd baseman of the future and Familia can be groomed into a solid starter or nice closer. Upton and David will also be a plus, both are from the same area and can build chemistry that will help both.
1- Ruben Tejada R
2- Matt Den Dekker L
3- David Wright R
4- Ike Davis L
5- Justin Upton R
6- A.J. Pierzynski L
7- Scott Hairston R
8- Jordany Valdespin L
Im happy with Josh Thole as a backup catcher. Josh Satin deserves a call up to be a reserve infielder, Justin Turner also should remain a nice infielder off the bench. Jason Bay can receive his pay day by hopefully providing stats as a outfielder off the bench and Mike Baxter should also stay as a reserve outfielder.
...so when it comes to Hundley we should eliminate years so his over all numbers look better, but when it comes to Thole we should not eliminate what he did this year. ummm ok
Originally Posted by YoungStuna28
Hundley blows as much as Thole and their careers numbers show period and am using the same arguments you have shown when killing Thole. Am not ignoring years to make one guy look better than the other. Those stats show what they are period and if you bashing one guy, then the other guy is not the answer because he sucks just as much.
wCR+ is parks adjusted, here are their OPS+
Again Hundley is not superior to Thole and he is 3 years older which leads me to think that this is it with him, youth is not on his side.
Also you bash somebody else for bringing up Nate McLouth and you bring up Hundley as if Hundley is some superior player to McLouth and an answer to a major hole for the Mets?
McLouth at least has had some 3 good years and made a nice little comeback in 2012.
:clap: Agreed Sick. (and I actually like Hundley as an option)
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
I like neither because imo they are lateral moves. You are not improving the major holes this team had in the outfield or behind the plate.
Both guys are almost 30 or 30 and are what they are now, back ups at best.
Give me regulars, those are the guys the Mets should target.
People on the general board were discussing Gerald Laird's name.
Not in regards to the Mets, but they were simply saying he has what it takes to start.
I forget which thread it's in, but the question asks about Scott Hairston and Gerald Laird
And the general belief is that both will get starting roles somewhere.
Laird (32) is a phenomenal game caller and receiver. Last year he split time with Yadier Molina in route to the Cardinals World Series Championship and this year he is working with Alex Avila and is a few games shy of the World Series yet again.
(Playoff experience helps a lot throughout the season when you have a team like the Mets do.)
He hit .282 put up a .711 OPS in very limited playing time behind Avila.
Not saying he's a personal favorite but saying he could be an option somewhere down the line.
He reminds me of Jose Molina but younger.