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View Full Version : Melky for Cameron??



SouljahPhil...
12-11-2008, 08:28 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...brera_t-1.html

Drawantz
12-11-2008, 10:00 AM
I think I need a couple days before it would be wise for me to discuss baseball with a Yankees fan... no offense

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 11:04 AM
Done Deal I hear.

The New York Daily News is reporting this morning the the Brewers have traded centerfielder Mike Cameron to the New York Yankees for outfielder Melky Cabrera.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on Wednesday night, Mark Attanasio, principal owner of the Brewers called Cameron one of the best centerfielders in baseball.

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 11:07 AM
And JSOnline is reporting Hall is going to be traded to the Yankees in the near future!

Holy crap we are opening cap space now. CC now gets his two closest friends from Milwaukee to play on the Yankees with him.

BrewersFan25
12-11-2008, 12:28 PM
I thought the Brewers should have made them throw in Kennedy. I don't like Cameron for Cabrera straight up.

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 12:43 PM
I don't think the Yankees were willing to do that. This is why we should've packaged Hall and Cameron.

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 12:55 PM
we need one other player with cabera coming back, if we include hall, granted that is a lot of salary, we should get kennedy to

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 12:59 PM
Cameron is a K machine and wont be around long. I'm not going to open up the previous argument that he isn't worth 10mm but he isn't. I just talked to a crazy yankee fan and he said with the pressure off, Melky will do well in the NL and hit for average; he is only 24! He made 500K last year and isn't getting much of a bump so I'm happy about this. We aren't going to compete with the cubs rotation this year so a wild card is all we can hope for. I have no problem with a rebuilding year and clearing cap room as long as they put it to good use but signing Yovani long term and making and making some smart moves to shore up the future.

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 01:16 PM
a wild card kinda is out of reach right now. it is definately a rebuilding year. we kept cameron just in case we signed CC to still have a competitive team. It is a good trade to get rid of cap. just think if hall gets traded to. My question is where would the yanks want hall to play? util or 2nd or OF?

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 01:20 PM
I read they would like him as a utility guy that could backup arod, jeter and cano.

They are the Yankees, they can spend 7mm on a backup

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 01:30 PM
Its still a talented offense. They need to land a starter and a reliever or 2 and the team is set. I wouldn't give up on playoff hopes quite yet.

Yeah I'm definetly with you on this one. I'm not quite worried, especially since everything Tom H. says on JSOnline is that the Brewers are going to be making trades and such. And you can see they're interested in veteran pitchers mmmaybe because they believe we aren't completely out of playoff talks.

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 01:43 PM
If the cubs get peavy they will have the greatest rotation ever... on paper.

*They are still the cubs though, so you never know.

I still can't believe the cubs are the only bidder for Peavy. Melvin should call him and sell him on Milwaukee. By todays salary standards he is a steal for the type of numbers he puts up.
2009 opening day age: 27
2009 salary: $11 million
2010 salary: $15 million
2011 salary: $16 million
2012 salary: $17 million

NL Cy Young Award (2007)
Two-time All-Star (2005, 2007)
Led league in ERA twice (2004, 2007)
Led league in wins (2007)
Led league in strikeouts twice (2005, 2007)
Triple Crown of pitching (2007)

This is why i'm not holding out hope for the playoffs with the cubs, mets, and phillies being so good.

WI Sports Fan
12-11-2008, 01:48 PM
AND we are eating some of his contract? Wow...

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 01:49 PM
if the cubs get peavy they will have the greatest rotation ever... On paper.

*they are still the cubs though, so you never know.

I still can't believe the cubs are the only bidder for peavy. Melvin should call him and sell him on milwaukee. By todays salary standards he is a steal for the type of numbers he puts up.
2009 opening day age: 27
2009 salary: $11 million
2010 salary: $15 million
2011 salary: $16 million
2012 salary: $17 million

nl cy young award (2007)
two-time all-star (2005, 2007)
led league in era twice (2004, 2007)
led league in wins (2007)
led league in strikeouts twice (2005, 2007)
triple crown of pitching (2007)

this is why i'm not holding out hope for the playoffs with the cubs, mets, and phillies being so good.

he doesn't want to play in milwaukee

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 02:11 PM
they were trying to include Kei igwea whohas 3 years and 12mil left on his contract

Greenngld
12-11-2008, 02:13 PM
If the cubs get peavy they will have the greatest rotation ever... on paper.

*They are still the cubs though, so you never know.

I still can't believe the cubs are the only bidder for Peavy. Melvin should call him and sell him on Milwaukee. By todays salary standards he is a steal for the type of numbers he puts up.
2009 opening day age: 27
2009 salary: $11 million
2010 salary: $15 million
2011 salary: $16 million
2012 salary: $17 million

NL Cy Young Award (2007)
Two-time All-Star (2005, 2007)
Led league in ERA twice (2004, 2007)
Led league in wins (2007)
Led league in strikeouts twice (2005, 2007)
Triple Crown of pitching (2007)

This is why i'm not holding out hope for the playoffs with the cubs, mets, and phillies being so good.

Reports are the Cubs/Peavy deal is dead

Kevin Towers told reporters the proposed Peavy deal with the Cubs is dead. The Cubs pulled out. Mike DiGiovanna heard earlier that the Angels remain interested.

Greenngld
12-11-2008, 02:14 PM
11:49am: Joel Sherman talked to a top exec involved in the talks who called the chances of a deal "remote." Kevin Baxter of the L.A. Times was told the deal is done, however.

11:17am: Ken Rosenthal says the potential deal hit a roadblock over the Yankees' desire to have Milwaukee pick up part of the tab on Cameron. Also, the Brewers want a second player after Cabrera. Tom Haudricourt says the Yankees tried to unload Kei Igawa on them.

9:28am: The Cabrera for Cameron deal is close but not done, according to Joel Sherman's source. He says the Brewers could receive a pitcher as well, with the quality depending on whether they'll assume salary.

8:41am: Tom Haudricourt is not sure this is done. He says the Yankees like Bill Hall as well. The Brewers could gain quite a bit of payroll flexibility here. It'd be interesting to see all three Brewers friends (including Sabathia) move to the Yanks.

7:15am: Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News says the Yankees are set to acquire Cameron for Cabrera.

12:55am: According to Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger, the Yankees met with the Brewers Wednesday to resume trade talks for Mike Cameron that began at the GM Meetings. Whatever mild concern the Brewers reportedly had about trading away a friend of C.C. Sabathia's is gone.

On November 7th, Peter Abraham wrote that Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera were on the Brewers' radar. Clearly the Brewers want to add a starting pitcher.

TheRedMarauder
12-11-2008, 02:48 PM
A member of the Brewers' traveling party told the Journal-Sentinel that no Mike Cameron-for-Melky Cabrera deal was done yet.

FOXSports.com is going so far as to say it's hit a roadblock and that the Yankees could end discussions. It sounds like the Brewers want more in return if they're going to pick up any part of Cameron's $10 million salary. On the other hand, they might be fine with it as is if the Yankees swallow the entire amount. It doesn't look like there's much to speculation that the deal could grow to include Bill Hall and/or Kei Igawa.

rotoworld

BrewersFan25
12-11-2008, 02:58 PM
I wouldn't mind picking up part of Cameron's contract if we get Kennedy as well

Greenngld
12-11-2008, 03:00 PM
I hate the Yankees more every day.

Let's pay Cam to play for you, and take your version of Weeks in trade.

Anything else, want us to pick up your dry cleaning and shovel your driveway?

Cashman can suck it. He's gone off the deep end with Yankee money power.

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 03:20 PM
The deal is far from done. There's speculation the Yankees want the Brewers to eat some of Cameron's contract.

Ha! After they bid against themselves for Sabathia they want us to pick up some salary? I hope Melvin told them to piss off and they can keep Melky.

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 03:48 PM
Cashman is an A-Hole. How he can seriously ask Melvin to take part of Cameron's salary for nothing is a joke. I hate the Yankee's.

crewfan13
12-11-2008, 03:51 PM
From what I've read, the Brewers are getting a second player in the deal, with the quality of player depending upon how much of Cam's contract the Brewers are willing to eat.

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 04:02 PM
I'd eat it all if they threw kennedy into the deal

jimmyjames
12-11-2008, 04:38 PM
Melky had a down year. As a yankees fan I want to keep him. If you do get him he is a good little player. You will be pleased with him

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 04:44 PM
I'd eat it all if they threw kennedy into the deal

A 4/5 starter excites you that much?

WI Sports Fan
12-11-2008, 04:54 PM
I'd eat it all if they threw kennedy into the deal

Hell yeah...

And it's not like Melvin would necessarily spend that money he would save by dumping Cameron.

BrewersFan25
12-11-2008, 04:56 PM
Hell yeah...

And it's not like Melvin would necessarily spend that money he would save by dumping Cameron.

That would be dumb to take on all of Cameron's contract just for Kennedy. I would take on a small part if they included Kennedy but not all of it. If they swapped Kennedy for Hughes though.......

WI Sports Fan
12-11-2008, 05:22 PM
A 4/5 starter excites you that much?


That would be dumb to take on all of Cameron's contract just for Kennedy. I would take on a small part if they included Kennedy but not all of it. If they swapped Kennedy for Hughes though.......

Just a difference of opinion on Kennedy I guess.

OC Knights #11
12-11-2008, 05:23 PM
I don't know what to think. I'm 50/50 on the Cameron/Cabrera deal. We need to make some major moves to be a playoff team again.

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 05:29 PM
-we cut salary for this year, so more can be used next year. we get a switch handed bat that would play regularly and potentially a 4/5 starting pitcher. What isn't to like about that?

4d32petersc
12-11-2008, 05:30 PM
A 4/5 starter excites you that much?

He is barely 24 and an incredible prospect. He had a great college career, his minor league era is under 3, and he has good stuff (4 pitches). He may be a 4/5 this year, but is projected to be a 2 in the future. It would be a small price to pay upfront.

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 05:38 PM
He is barely 24 and an incredible prospect. He had a great college career, his minor league era is under 3, and he has good stuff (4 pitches). He may be a 4/5 this year, but is projected to be a 2 in the future. It would be a small price to pay upfront.

His fastball is average or just a tick below. He has a good change up but an average curveball and slider. A hyped Yankees prospect that was made out to be more than he was.

Dcup
12-11-2008, 05:41 PM
I think Cabrera and Kennedy for Cameron and we eat 2 million.

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 05:42 PM
i agree with the "Hyped" portion

Smithy04
12-11-2008, 05:50 PM
Cabrera used to be one of the Yankees top prospects, but seems to be averaging out a bit. Maybe anew surrounding would do him some good.

I like Cameron and his contributions to the Brew Crew last season and I think the reason that the Front Office held off to trade him was because him and CC are great friends and they wanted to keep him here for CC and to start in CF, but now he's gone.

BrewersFan25
12-11-2008, 06:36 PM
I think Cabrera and Kennedy for Cameron and we eat 2 million.

I would do that deal for sure.

Brew Crew
12-11-2008, 08:41 PM
Trade is back on guys.


After a morning hiccup created by the Yankees’ request for the Brewers to pick up some of centerfielder Mike Cameron’s salary, the sides are back on track to complete a trade that would bring centerfielder Melky Cabrera to Milwaukee.

Asked about the likelihood of that trade now happening, Brewers general manager Doug Melvin just said there was “a strong possibility it could still happen.”

So, perhaps as early as tomorrow, the deal could be completed, with perhaps a second player coming back to the Brewers from the Yankees. Melvin said the financial aspects of the deal had been settled but talks continued on a second player coming from New York.

The sides were unable to complete the deal today because Yankees general manager Brian Cashman and his front office group left early to head back to New York. Melvin said he reached Cashman via telephone while he was at the airport here and it was agreed to resume talks tomorrow.

Some have viewed the switch from the soon-to-be-36 Cameron to the 24-year-old Cabrera as a significant downgrade in talent but the Brewers don't see it that way. And Melvin said some of the money saved in Cameron's contract would be used to go out and replenish the team's thinned pitching.

Cabrera made $461,200 last season and is just coming up on his arbitration years.

"It gives us flexibility to go out and look at the pool of free agents," said Melvin. "The goal is to try to get back flexibility to be able to do some things that way since there is still a pool of talent out there. It's not as large as everybody thinks it is, from my perspective.

"But there are still some talented players there. We want to have the flexibility to pursue and add depth to our organization. One of the things that made us successful last year was our depth.

"We've lost six regular veteran pitchers on our staff (to free agency). We're trying to create flexiblity to look at some of the free-agent pool of players and regain some of those losses."

Asked for his reaction to the Yankees' earlier request to take back some of Cameron's salary, Melvin took the diplomatic route and said, "I don't want to say anything about that."

"It was probably close," Melvin said, before that glitch came up.

WI Sports Fan
12-11-2008, 08:52 PM
His fastball is average or just a tick below. He has a good change up but an average curveball and slider. A hyped Yankees prospect that was made out to be more than he was.

Kennedy isn't Yankee hype. We're talking abut a kid that has been dominant at every single level. The only reason he fell to NY at the mid-late 1st round was because of his signing bonus demands. By no means am I saying he's a future ace or has tremendous stuff, but there's no reason to think he doesn't have the ability to at least become a solid 3rd starter in the MLB.

Don't let 1 injury-laden rookie season affect your judgment too much. Keep in mind he did go to AAA and perfrom very well after his struggles in the majors, and didn't get much of a chance to re-establish himself after that.

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Kennedy isn't Yankee hype.

Yes he is.


We're talking abut a kid that has been dominant at every single level.

Lots of pitchers with low ceilings can be dominant in the minors. His stuff in the majors is below average. His stuff in the minors is good enough to get less experienced hitters out.


The only reason he fell to NY at the mid-late 1st round was because of his signing bonus demands.

So? He was never a top 10 pick, he was probably never top 15. He was drafted right around where he should've been.


but there's no reason to think he doesn't have the ability to at least become a solid 3rd starter in the MLB.

There definitely is reason to think that. He has a slightly below average fastball, average curveball and slider and slightly above average changeup. That's average. He's a 4/5 starter that was hyped as one of the best prospects in the baseball.

YankeeFan28
12-11-2008, 09:24 PM
Kennedy isn't Yankee hype.

Kennedy is Yankee hype. His potential coming from college was a back end pitcher to a number 3 if everything went well. He was drafted because he was the most MLB ready and was closest to being a major leaguer. He was the most polished pitcher in our system and because of that polish he was far more advanced then the competition he faced in the minors. Because of those numbers, the Yankees tried to sell him along the lines of Hughes and Joba, when he shouldn't even be in the same sentence as those two. He was being sold as a potential front line pitcher like the other two, when his full potential was a number 3 at best.

Yankees used the media to hype a player so they could try and get the most value out of him.

WI Sports Fan
12-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Excuse me, I meant to say he isn't "just" Yankee hype. Pretty much every Yankee prospect has been overhyped, but that doesn't mean a guy like Kennedy isn't a solid prospect.

That being said, neither one of you have provided anything to support your opinion. YankeeFan, I value your opinion since you've seen more of him than I have (I would assume), but we aren't too far off anyways. BrewersFan, as usual, your post made me roll my eyes more than it made me think.

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 10:36 PM
Excuse me, I meant to say he isn't "just" Yankee hype. Pretty much every Yankee prospect has been overhyped, but that doesn't mean a guy like Kennedy isn't a solid prospect.

That being said, neither one of you have provided anything to support your opinion. YankeeFan, I value your opinion since you've seen more of him than I have (I would assume), but we aren't too far off anyways. BrewersFan, as usual, your post made me roll my eyes more than it made me think.

I really don't care if you rolled your eyes at my post. I never said he wasn't a solid prospect, I never said he couldn't be a solid 4/5 pitcher in the majors, I said and I stand by it 100% that he was a hyped Yankees prospect. I have one Yankee fan that agrees with me 100% and I'm sure there's plenty of others after they saw him last year. How many do you think will agree with you?

packerfan4321
12-11-2008, 11:06 PM
What yankee prospect isn't over hyped? They're not good at drafting, only good with the media. They hype everyone. That being said, he is a decent prospect and we need pitching desperately. I just dont like the fact the Yankees offered 160 to CC and yet they want us to eat some of Camerons contract? and that was before another player was mentioned I believe. In that case, they can take their deal and stick it up their ***.

packerfan4321
12-11-2008, 11:10 PM
How about they take Cameron and Bill Hall and we get Melky and Kennedy? I wouldnt mind eating a few million then. Hate to say its a rebuilding year, which is could be if our pitching is this thin, but think of the things we could do with Halls and Suppans contracts off the books next year

gottaHaveHart
12-11-2008, 11:34 PM
reloading is def. a good term for what we should do, add talent through minor deals, and allow our player, pitcher to further develop and make a splash next offseason

yahnbeekis
12-11-2008, 11:51 PM
i hope this happens so i dont have to see cameron watch strike 3 go right down the middle of the plate

brewersfan729
12-11-2008, 11:57 PM
They reloaded the minor leagues with the choices in the rule 5.

Wow. They added a bunch of minor league fodder to help fill spots. If those players had a chance of contributing much in the majors, they would've been protected.

Brewfan
12-12-2008, 12:49 AM
I really don't care if you rolled your eyes at my post. I never said he wasn't a solid prospect, I never said he couldn't be a solid 4/5 pitcher in the majors, I said and I stand by it 100% that he was a hyped Yankees prospect. I have one Yankee fan that agrees with me 100% and I'm sure there's plenty of others after they saw him last year. How many do you think will agree with you?

Not a Yankees fan, but I agree with WI Sports Fan. If the Yankees were "just hyping" him, they wouldn't have given him a spot in the rotation heading into 2008. They would've gone out and bought someone else. The fact that they didn't suggests that they thought he's legit.

If we could trade Cameron/Hall for Cabrera/Kennedy/other prospect (obviously not too prominent), then we should probably give it a shot. Because whether anybody likes it or not, the Brewers will not win in 2009 with a rotation of Gallardo/Parra/Suppan/Bush/other. Just won't.

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 01:04 AM
Not a Yankees fan, but I agree with WI Sports Fan. If the Yankees were "just hyping" him, they wouldn't have given him a spot in the rotation heading into 2008. They would've gone out and bought someone else. The fact that they didn't suggests that they thought he's legit.

They didn't expect him to be anything more than a 4/5 starter. What was their rotation heading into the season? Wang/Pettitte/Mussina/Hughes/Kennedy and then Chamberlain in the bullpen and then rotation later in the year.

Here's Keith Law's scouting report on Kennedy.


Kennedy's stuff alone would put him in the lower reaches of this list. He is here because he has superb command of average or fringe-average stuff, so superb that he is going to succeed in the majors where many guys with superior stuff will fail. He works with a fringe-average fastball that touches 90 mph on occasion but mostly falls in the 87-88 mph range, and he commands it to all four edges of the zone. His best secondary pitch is his changeup, slightly above average with some tailing action, but it works extremely well because he keeps his arm speed consistent. His curve is solidly average as well. Kennedy repeats his delivery as well as any prospect on this list, commands all of his pitches and has a great feel for pitching. With plus stuff, he would be in the top 10 overall, but with his stuff, he will have to settle for an upside as a borderline No. 3 starter or a great No. 4 starter.

I know Baseball America had him pegged as a #4 starter as well.

gottaHaveHart
12-12-2008, 01:05 AM
If we could trade Cameron/Hall for Cabrera/Kennedy/other prospect (obviously not too prominent), then we should probably give it a shot. Because whether anybody likes it or not, the Brewers will not win in 2009 with a rotation of Gallardo/Parra/Suppan/Bush/other. Just won't.

could that other prospect be igawa, to kinda get the contracts difference to be slighly less?

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 01:12 AM
Hall going in the trade was discussed, but the Yankees wanted the Brewers to pick up salary and take on Igawa, which they wouldn't do. Igawa isn't even a prospect. He's an overpaid, free agent bust.

Also, I know this is nitpicking, but the title should read "Cameron for Melky" since Cameron is our player and we'd be trading him, not trading for him. ;)

YankeeFan28
12-12-2008, 01:15 AM
Hall going in the trade was discussed, but the Yankees wanted the Brewers to pick up salary and take on Igawa, which they wouldn't do. Igawa isn't even a prospect. He's an overpaid, free agent bust.

Also, I know this is nitpicking, but the title should read "Cameron for Melky" since Cameron is our player and we'd be trading him, not trading for him. ;)

4M a year isn't exactly over paid.

YankeeFan28
12-12-2008, 01:17 AM
Excuse me, I meant to say he isn't "just" Yankee hype. Pretty much every Yankee prospect has been overhyped, but that doesn't mean a guy like Kennedy isn't a solid prospect.

That being said, neither one of you have provided anything to support your opinion. YankeeFan, I value your opinion since you've seen more of him than I have (I would assume), but we aren't too far off anyways. BrewersFan, as usual, your post made me roll my eyes more than it made me think.

He's a decent prospect. But he's closer to a finished product then most of the hyped up prospects. All he has to do is adjust to the majors. His stuff isn't anything special. His potential isn't as high as the Yankees tried to imply.

WI Sports Fan
12-12-2008, 01:20 AM
I really don't care if you rolled your eyes at my post. I never said he wasn't a solid prospect, I never said he couldn't be a solid 4/5 pitcher in the majors, I said and I stand by it 100% that he was a hyped Yankees prospect. I have one Yankee fan that agrees with me 100% and I'm sure there's plenty of others after they saw him last year. How many do you think will agree with you?

You did say, "Yes he is." That's right, "Yes he is." Good point.

You did say he's a 4/5 starter that's being hyped as one of the best prospects in baseball, which is completely false. I dare you to find even the most ignorant baseball evaluator that has claimed that since he landed in N.Y.

You say he's a product of Yankee hype, but he was so good at USC that he was compared to Mark Prior and Randy Johnson. I've never heard of an MLB team hyping a player years before they drafted him.

The point is, there aren't many mid-1st round picks that completely dominate in H.S., in college, in the minors and in their first taste of the MLB, and are back-end rotation starters at best. When you throw in that he was viewed as a top 5-10 pick in a class that included Lincecum, Scherzer, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Brandon Morrow, Joba and our own Jeremy Jeffress, and that tends to point to him having better than "below average" stuff. So? You ask? That's why signibility comes into play.

Oh, and that Yankee fan didn't agree with you 100%. He acknowledged Kennedy has more potential than you're giving him credit for. And I sincerely hope every single Yankee fan does disagree with me. I'd rather not have the support of a fan base known for being irrational and spoiled (sorry Yankee fans, but you have absolutely destroyed the best hitter in baseball for the past few years). But you said it perfectly; "after they saw him last year". That explains it all, and it's exactly why your opinion holds little weight. Anyone who draws their conclusions from a 23-year old starting pitcher's injury laced rookie season clearly doesn't know baseball.

You are so right though, stuff is all that matters, which is exactly why Homer Bailey is doing so well.

gottaHaveHart
12-12-2008, 01:40 AM
4M a year isn't exactly over paid.

yeah, that is coming from a yankee fan. four mil(1/6th of the contract of the pitcher you just signed) a year, for 3 years. asuming he still sucks that is 12 mil gone each year. hall and cam make about 26 mil for three combined years between them. They are capable starters, not someone who is going to ait at AAA for 3 years, then go back to japan

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 01:56 AM
You did say he's a 4/5 starter that's being hyped as one of the best prospects in baseball, which is completely false. I dare you to find even the most ignorant baseball evaluator that has claimed that since he landed in N.Y.

Baseball America, who is perhaps the most respected evaluators of minor league prospects fell into the hype. They ranked him as the 45th best prospect in the minors this year. Ahead of other pitchers like Jarrod Parker, Jair Jurrjens, Carlos Carrasco, Daniel Cortes, Chris Volstad, Justin Masterson, Max Scherzer, Chris Tillman, Manny Parra, Eric Hurley, Sean Gallagher, Phillippe Aumont, Tim Alderson, Jeff Niemann, Michael Bowden and Neftali Feliz. You could make a case he should be rated higher than a few of those pitchers, but there's no way he should be rated higher than all or most of them.


You say he's a product of Yankee hype, but he was so good at USC that he was compared to Mark Prior and Randy Johnson. I've never heard of an MLB team hyping a player years before they drafted him.

What kind of idiot would compare completely different pitchers? Mark Prior had a dominant fastball and curveball. Johnson had a dominant fastball and slider. Kennedy doesn't have a dominant anything which limits his ceiling.


The point is, there aren't many mid-1st round picks that completely dominate in H.S., in college, in the minors and in their first taste of the MLB, and are back-end rotation starters at best.

Pretty much all good prospects dominate in high school. Many of the elite prospects don't even go to college because they're drafted early.


When you throw in that he was viewed as a top 5-10 pick in a class that included Lincecum, Scherzer, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, Brandon Morrow, Joba and our own Jeremy Jeffress, and that tends to point to him having better than "below average" stuff.

You're really going to have to give a link for the top 5-10 pick. Most thought he was an overdraft.


So? You ask? That's why signibility comes into play.

Signability? What are you talking about? Geez, the only signability issue was him threatening to go back to college. Players use that all the time. If I still have college eligibility (and Kennedy did) then I'm going to either get picked high enough where the bonus money is enough for me to take, get picked lower where the bonus money isn't as good and then threaten to go back to college if you don't pay me what I want or get taken where the bonus money isn't enough, you decide not to pay me and I go back. This isn't some new thing exclusive to Ian Kennedy. If the Yankees wouldn't have offered the bonus he wanted, he would've just gone back.


Oh, and that Yankee fan didn't agree with you 100%. He acknowledged Kennedy has more potential than you're giving him credit for.

I gave him credit for what he is. Maybe, if everything goes perfectly for him he can be a decent #3 starter. Most likely, he's a 4/5 starter.


But you said it perfectly; "after they saw him last year". That explains it all, and it's exactly why your opinion holds little weight. Anyone who draws their conclusions from a 23-year old starting pitcher's injury laced rookie season clearly doesn't know baseball.

They draw the conclusions from his average stuff across the board (slightly above average changeup makes up for below average fastball.) How many guys with average stuff across the board end up as ace pitchers?


You are so right though, stuff is all that matters, which is exactly why Homer Bailey is doing so well.

Name all the aces in the majors who don't have at least one great pitch. Name all the guys with average stuff that have been drafted towards the top of the draft. I guarantee you that my list will be much, much longer than yours.

WI Sports Fan
12-12-2008, 02:19 AM
First of all, I never called him an ace.

I think we have different definitions of 'one of the top prospects'. I agree that it's a bit ridiculous he was ranked ahead of Scherzer, and obviously Jurrjens looks terrible in hindsight, but it's not like any of those other guys have overwhelming stuff either.

I didn't mean compare in a sense of he's similar to Prior and the Unit, more that he's the next in the line of great USC SP's. It's not often you find a pitcher that did as well as Kennedy did at the 3 levels (HS, NCAA, MiLB). I don't understand what you're trying to argue on the draft thing. What you've said is all I'm saying... He would've been drafted higher had he not made the demands he did. I don't know why you keep arguing that.

I'll see what I can scrounge up pre-2006 draft. It's tough to find projections and stuff after the fact.

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 02:49 AM
I think we have different definitions of 'one of the top prospects'. I agree that it's a bit ridiculous he was ranked ahead of Scherzer, and obviously Jurrjens looks terrible in hindsight, but it's not like any of those other guys have overwhelming stuff either.

Are you serious? Kennedy works around 88-91. Scherzer works around 93-95. That's a huge difference. Scherzer also has an average to above average slider and changeup. Jurrjens works a 91-93 fastball with great sink. That's also with an above average changeup. Every other pitcher on that list has a better fastball and either better or potentially better breaking stuff than Kennedy.


I didn't mean compare in a sense of he's similar to Prior and the Unit, more that he's the next in the line of great USC SP's. It's not often you find a pitcher that did as well as Kennedy did at the 3 levels (HS, NCAA, MiLB).

I don't see how what his high school, college or minor league career has to do with anything. Every scout earns their pay by projecting what a player is going to be in the majors. Ben Hendrickson was dominant in high school and was fairly good in the minors and if he had gone to college, I'm sure he would've been good there. The problem was he didn't have the stuff to get big league hitters out. Now, I'm not saying Kennedy won't be able to, but his stuff absolutely limits his ceiling to a decent #3 starter as the absolutely best case scenario. And he's more than likely a 4/5.


He would've been drafted higher had he not made the demands he did. I don't know why you keep arguing that.

No, he wouldn't have. Many teams thought he was an overdraft. The Yankees took him that high because he was a polished college arm who would be close to contributing in the majors. They paid over slot so he wouldn't go back to USC for his senior year.

There are several players who I would've taken over him in 2006 and neither Kennedy or the players that I rated higher than him have done anything to change that opinion.

Madtown343
12-12-2008, 03:18 AM
I know when they make these predictions they do not take into account leagues and such, but if Kennedy was going to possibly be an ok 3 or a "great" 4 in the American League East then I see no reason why he couldnt be a 3 or 4 in the NL Central. We dont need him to pass Gallardo or even Parra, but if he falls in line somewhere between Parra and Soup then I think he would be more than worth adding for one year of Cameron being better than Melky. I think Melky has some future value as a 4th OF'er, and we know Cameron has no future here so if we can pull a deal for a decent bench option and a possible 3 or 4 starter for 2010 (Most likely the next chance we have at being very competetive) then why would anyone question this move?

thatguy
12-12-2008, 12:49 PM
I really dont think you can say that a pitcher is a better prospect because he can throw a fastball 5 mph faster. Now dont get me wrong, i am Def not comparing anyone to Greg Maddux but this future HOFer relied on his movement and placement of his pitches. For example, kyle farnsworth throws 100mph and its a no brainer who the better "pitcher" is. Only time will tell if Kennedy will be a good pitcher and to be honest the Yankees could have gotten possibly the best pitcher in baseball today in Santana for Kennedy, the Melk man and other margin prospects. If i was the yankees i wouldnt trade them for cameron. Even if he is butt buddies with CC...

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 02:18 PM
I really dont think you can say that a pitcher is a better prospect because he can throw a fastball 5 mph faster.

Actually you can. Chances are, if you have a great fastball, you have a better chance of becoming an ace. The only chance you have of becoming an ace with a 90 mph fastball is if you have incredible control, not good, not great but incredible. Someone like Maddux for instance or if you have great sink on your fastball to generate a ton of ground balls, like Brandon Webb.

Again, it's not about minor league careers or college careers or high school careers. It's about what the player is projected to do if he reaches his full potential in the majors. That's why you see guys like Jeremy Jeffress drafted in the first round. Great fastball, potentially dominant breaking ball. If he reaches his full potential in the majors, his ceiling is an ace. That's why guys like Brent Brewer are taken high in the draft. They have the tools, they just haven't put them to use yet, if he does, he's a five-tool shortstop.

That's not to say these players will reach these ceilings, but good fastball velocity with projection in your breaking pitches will get you drafted early.

Drawantz
12-12-2008, 04:40 PM
His fastball is average or just a tick below. He has a good change up but an average curveball and slider. A hyped Yankees prospect that was made out to be more than he was.

Is it just me or are all Yankee prospects overhyped and overrated?

WI Sports Fan
12-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Are you serious? Kennedy works around 88-91. Scherzer works around 93-95. That's a huge difference. Scherzer also has an average to above average slider and changeup. Jurrjens works a 91-93 fastball with great sink. That's also with an above average changeup.

Did you miss where I said it's a bit ridiculous he was rated ahead of those two, or are you just ********?

Ben Hendrickson was a 10th round pick who didn't go to college and didn't do nearly as well in the minors. How is he the least bit comparable to Kennedy? Regardless, I can produce just as many examples of players with Kennedy's track record that end up being 1-3 pitchers as you can with guys who end up at the back-end, so lets not waste our time.

I don't know why you're even still responding me when you've acknowledged he has the potential to be a #3 starter, which is all I was saying.

This is my last post about it. I'm sick of repeating myself. Not everyone loves to hear themselves talk so much that they're willing to say the same thing over and over again for 3 pages.

brewersfan729
12-12-2008, 06:27 PM
Ben Hendrickson was a 10th round pick who didn't go to college and didn't do nearly as well in the minors. How is he the least bit comparable to Kennedy?

Because they had pretty much the same stuff. Below average fastball, one slightly above average breaking ball.


Regardless, I can produce just as many examples of players with Kennedy's track record that end up being 1-3 pitchers as you can with guys who end up at the back-end, so lets not waste our time.

It's not about track record for the 100th time! Of course an experienced college pitcher facing less experienced hitters in the minors is going to succeed. The problem comes when that player faces experienced hitters in the majors. That's my whole point, the one that I've tried to get through your thick skull 100 times. His stuff and his age limits his ceiling.

crewfan13
12-13-2008, 04:43 PM
I think we kinda lost the point of the topic with this argument. I say if we can get Kennedy or Hughes with Melky for Cameron then go for it. I realize we'll have to eat some of Cam's contract, but as long as its not too much, we should go for it. Its either we get one more year of Cam, or we can have Melky, who's just entering arb. so we'd have control of him for about like two or three years (not sure exactly how many) and one of the pitchers who both could be solid #3 or 4 starters and are fairly young yet. I say thats well worth it.

SojoDance
12-14-2008, 02:25 PM
I think we kinda lost the point of the topic with this argument. I say if we can get Kennedy or Hughes with Melky for Cameron then go for it. I realize we'll have to eat some of Cam's contract, but as long as its not too much, we should go for it. Its either we get one more year of Cam, or we can have Melky, who's just entering arb. so we'd have control of him for about like two or three years (not sure exactly how many) and one of the pitchers who both could be solid #3 or 4 starters and are fairly young yet. I say thats well worth it.

According to the NY Daily News, the Brewers asked for Mark Melancon, Jose Veras, or Phil Coke and were told no. They were also told they wouldn't be getting any pitchers off the 40 man roster, so that rules out Kennedy and Hughes.

Brew Crew
12-14-2008, 02:44 PM
This trade is getting annoying. Just trade Cameron for Cabrera straight up already, we pay nothing on Cam and save money. Deal done.

Giannis94
12-14-2008, 03:20 PM
where is the deal at anyways

brewersfan729
12-14-2008, 04:20 PM
If we're not getting any decent pitcher, then tell the Yankees to go screw themselves and just keep Cameron.

Brew Crew
12-14-2008, 05:59 PM
Looks like it's going to be Igawa and Cabrera for Cameron.

Assuming its only Cameron ($10 mil) for Igawa (4 mil) Cabrera (around 1 mil) we'll make a little bit of money off this.

packerfan4321
12-14-2008, 07:45 PM
Looks like it's going to be Igawa and Cabrera for Cameron.

Assuming its only Cameron ($10 mil) for Igawa (4 mil) Cabrera (around 1 mil) we'll make a little bit of money off this.

Looks like it will be happening in the near future. I know nothing about Igawa, anyone get to see him play at all?

brewersfan729
12-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Igawa is terrible.

WI Sports Fan
12-14-2008, 09:19 PM
Igawa has some potential, but he's owed $12 million over the next 3 years. I don't understand why the Brewers would do this deal unless the Yankees are paying for most of his contract.

Brew Crew
12-15-2008, 11:32 AM
Igawa has some potential, but he's owed $12 million over the next 3 years. I don't understand why the Brewers would do this deal unless the Yankees are paying for most of his contract.

It seems like Melvin is just going to accept this because he won't have to pay for Cameron and he'll at the least get another guy back (Even for $4 mil a year). Maybe just to give Igawamuchiuchi a chance.

Dcup
12-15-2008, 02:02 PM
This is what I found regarding Igawa...

http://www.saberscouting.com/2008/04/04/what-is-wrong-with-kei-igawa/

Madtown343
12-15-2008, 07:57 PM
I cant believe that the Yankees have all the leverage in the deal... Why can Cashman just take our list of 5 players and say no? I would tell them that we will get one of those 5 pitchers listed above, or they can march Melky Cabrera out in CF for 2009.

McNam003
12-15-2008, 10:17 PM
Tyler Kepner of the New York Times spoke to people involved with the deal and he gets the feeling that "the Yankees are backing away" for baseball reasons, not financial ones. Kepner adds that the Yankees know they don't have to make this trade immediately if they don't want to.

From mlbtraderumors.com... i kinda wanted this trade to go through... also the post prior to this one has the idea igawa is out of the deal

Madtown343
12-16-2008, 01:32 AM
So it appears the Yankee's are still unwilling to part with one of the 5 pitchers Melvin inquired about... I say wait it out, let them play the whole season with Melky in CF, or make them go spend money elsewhere. We know all too well how empty the CF market is, and the Yankees will realize that too.

TheRedMarauder
12-16-2008, 11:56 AM
According to the New York Times, "the Yankees are backing away from a potential Melky Cabrera-for-Mike Cameron trade with the Milwaukee Brewers, at least for now."

The newspaper reports that "at this point the Yankees' main question is baseball-related, not financial," which suggests that they're unwilling to meet the Brewers' demands for a second player.

rotoworld

4d32petersc
12-16-2008, 01:53 PM
Be strong Melvin!

Smithy04
12-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Milwaukee Brewers CF Mike Cameron - December 17th, 2008 - 2:44 pm et

General manager Doug Melvin said Wednesday that the Brewers are now unlikely to trade Mike Cameron to the Yankees.

Melvin indicated that he hasn't even spoken to Yankees general manager Brian Cashman since the winter meetings and is no longer looking to clear payroll space by moving Cameron.

Source: New York Newsday
Related: Yankees

CREW BACKER
12-17-2008, 07:22 PM
If Melvin isn't looking to shed payroll anymore, is this a concession to the season. We can't just throw C.C.'s money at other not worthy pitchers. If we aren't shedding payroll, then we aren't signing anyone worthwhile. I don't think we need a top line pitcher right now, but 1 middle of the rotation starter would do. This seems like giving in to rebuilding. I'm not saying I want Cabrera or any other Yankee, but $10 mil for Cameron or maybe ditching Hall would help both now and next off season.

gottaHaveHart
12-18-2008, 12:42 AM
the more i think about it, this is the right move. If we were going to get a good pitcher instead of igawa, it would be a different story. Melvin has done a decent job so far shoring up the bull-pen, a few more pitchers and we should be set for next season

Dcup
12-18-2008, 01:46 PM
Well this deal is now officially dead. I thought after pursuing CC with the offer that we did, we would be major players in FA this offseason. But, up until this point, we havent bettered our team, or even filled any holes period. Hope we get something done soo.

crewfan13
12-19-2008, 05:11 PM
I read on mlbtraderumors.com that Cashman contacted Melvin about the trade and Melvin said we'd like to hold on to Cameron. Maybe this is Melvin's way of trying to get the Yankees to sweeten up to the deal. He might be hoping that the Yanks will get desperate for Cam and throw some better pitching.

Bronxbombers182
12-19-2008, 08:47 PM
Keep him! rather have one of the kids duke out for the starting CF spot, or give that money to Manny.

brewersfan729
12-19-2008, 09:45 PM
Keep him! rather have one of the kids duke out for the starting CF spot, or give that money to Manny.

We will, he's much better than the crap you're going to throw out in CF.

aroy025
01-02-2009, 01:15 AM
We will, he's much better than the crap you're going to throw out in CF.

Hmmmm...maybe I'm wrong, but you almost traded your CF for some of the crap that might grace our CF...

This is the first time I've ever posted in the Brewers forum, but I've noticed some misconceptions. The Yankees do spend a lot of money, but they have a ton of money coming off the book...I'm sorry it came at your expense, but you traded for CC in July knowing full well this certainly was a possibility...

In response to the Yankees buying all FA talent, lets analyze that fully.

C- Jorge Posada - Homegrown
1B- Mark Teixiera - Free Agent
2B- Robinson Cano - Homegrown
SS- Derek Jeter - Homegrown
3B- Alex Rodriguez - Acquired via trade (involving homegrown Alfonso Soriano)
LF- Johnny Damon - Free Agent
CF- Brett Gardner/Melky Cabrera - Homegrown
RF- Xavier Nady/Nick Swisher - Acquired via Trade

1: CC Sabathia - Free Agent
2: Chien-Ming Wang - Homegrown
3: AJ Burnett - Free Agent
4: Joba Chamberlain - Homegrown
5: Phil Hughes - Homegrown

*if they resign Andy Pettitte - Homegrown

Closer: Mariano Rivera - Homegrown
Setup: Damaso Marte - Acquired via Trade
Setup: Brian Bruney- Minor League Free Agent
Middle Relief: Jose Veras - Minor League Free Agent
Middle Relief: Edwar Ramirez - Minor League Free Agent
Long Relief: Alfredo Aceves - Mexican League Free Agent

So the Yankees current roster shows 4 Major League Free Agents. I know it seems like more than that, but can you really get upset with the Yankees for awarding players like Jeter, Posada, and Rivera large contracts? Aren't the Yankees allowed to keep their own players should they choose to do so?

The Yankees might spend a lot of money, but they do so in an honest effort to win. The Yankees can absorb more financial miscues than other franchises can, but that isn't a reason to hate the Yankees. Shouldn't you be more upset with your ownership in giving out contracts to players like Jeff Suppan for 4 years and 42 million? I mean couldn't you have made a more legitimate play for keeping CC had you simply not had Jeff Suppan? 142 million over 6-7 years instead of just 4-5 for 100 million?

The Yankees can afford to take risks like Kei Igawa and when they don't work out they can absorb them. But when you are a team like the Brewers, you really can not afford to have players producing Jeff Suppan numbers for 10+ million dollars. Maybe instead of being mad at the Yankees, you should be mad at your ownership. Your team would be fine without Mike Cameron in CF, yet you pick up his 10 million dollar option, without Jason Kendall (5 million), David Riske (4 million), and Jeff Suppan (10+ million). Those players add some substance, but not 30 million dollars worth. Let's just say for fun that the Brewers bring back Ben Sheets on a 2 year deal for 30 million dollars. So in theory if Sheets were getting his 3 million a year raise and Cameron, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan did not exist, you would still have an extra 27 million dollars a year to spend. Wouldn't that help bring in someone like CC Sabathia? I think it would certainly help.

I understand you have to put together a team and a lot of the stuff I'm criticizing you will disagree with, but as a small market team, don't blame the Yankees, blame your ownership. It's not the Yankees fault you misappropriated your funds.

brewersfan729
01-02-2009, 01:46 AM
Hmmmm...maybe I'm wrong, but you almost traded your CF for some of the crap that might grace our CF...

Right, and if you read the thread, I was never for the trade.


C- Jorge Posada - Homegrown
1B- Mark Teixiera - Free Agent
2B- Robinson Cano - Homegrown
SS- Derek Jeter - Homegrown
3B- Alex Rodriguez - Acquired via trade (involving homegrown Alfonso Soriano)
LF- Johnny Damon - Free Agent
CF- Brett Gardner/Melky Cabrera - Homegrown
RF- Xavier Nady/Nick Swisher - Acquired via Trade

1: CC Sabathia - Free Agent
2: Chien-Ming Wang - Homegrown
3: AJ Burnett - Free Agent
4: Joba Chamberlain - Homegrown
5: Phil Hughes - Homegrown

*if they resign Andy Pettitte - Homegrown

Closer: Mariano Rivera - Homegrown
Setup: Damaso Marte - Acquired via Trade
Setup: Brian Bruney- Minor League Free Agent
Middle Relief: Jose Veras - Minor League Free Agent
Middle Relief: Edwar Ramirez - Minor League Free Agent
Long Relief: Alfredo Aceves - Mexican League Free Agent

That's nice.


Aren't the Yankees allowed to keep their own players should they choose to do so?

That's sort of the problem. The Brewers would love to keep their players, but don't have the revenue to do so. That's a huge advantage that the Yankees have over other teams. So how do we go about keeping our players? Pay them and have our ownership group lose money?


The Yankees can absorb more financial miscues than other franchises can, but that isn't a reason to hate the Yankees.

Yes, that absolutely is. You can hand out bad contract after bad contract and then go out and find another player to replace the injured/unproductive player. Most other teams can't do that, that's where the competitive advantage comes in.


I mean couldn't you have made a more legitimate play for keeping CC had you simply not had Jeff Suppan? 142 million over 6-7 years instead of just 4-5 for 100 million?

Maybe, I don't know. That's the point though. One mistake from our GM and we lose all of our flexibility. The Yankees had Pavano and Igawa and they can continue to spend.


The Yankees can afford to take risks like Kei Igawa and when they don't work out they can absorb them. But when you are a team like the Brewers, you really can not afford to have players producing Jeff Suppan numbers for 10+ million dollars.

Gee, I wonder why people don't like the Yankees. You're describing what everybody hates about them with this paragraph.


Maybe instead of being mad at the Yankees, you should be mad at your ownership.

Why on earth would we be mad at our ownership? They took over from the commisioner's incompetent daughter. They spend almost all of the money they make and put it back into the team. So why would we be mad at them again?


Your team would be fine without Mike Cameron in CF, yet you pick up his 10 million dollar option

Really? Who would we get to play CF and at what price?


without Jason Kendall (5 million)

Great defense and who's our catcher instead?


David Riske (4 million)

Injured last year. Can't go out and spend on a replacement. Should our GM have known he was going to get injured?


and Jeff Suppan (10+ million).

Carlos Silva, Jason Marquis. That's pretty much the price of mediocre innings eaters.


Let's just say for fun that the Brewers bring back Ben Sheets on a 2 year deal for 30 million dollars. So in theory if Sheets were getting his 3 million a year raise and Cameron, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan did not exist, you would still have an extra 27 million dollars a year to spend. Wouldn't that help bring in someone like CC Sabathia? I think it would certainly help.

And we replace those players with who? Imaginary players from the farm system? Other free agents who are worse but cost less?

aroy025
01-02-2009, 02:15 AM
And we replace those players with who? Imaginary players from the farm system? Other free agents who are worse but cost less?

I don't know who you replace them with. But would you at least agree that Cameron, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan is a piss poor appropriation of funds for your small market team?

Let's just pretend Cameron at 10 million is a good deal, because it isn't horrible.

Who cares what the going rate for innings eaters is? You have no pitchers in the farm system who can eat innings with a 4.96 ERA for about 10 million dollars less? You have no catchers who could hit .246 with 2 homeruns in 516 at bats? You could probably get a minor league free agent catcher to give you Jason Kendall's dynamic production. And as for David Riske, with the volatility of relief pitchers you couldn't give his spot to a kid in the minors or a minor league free agent?

Look, I know the Yankees spend, but there was upside potential in Kei Igawa and Carl Pavano. Everyone wanted Pavano and as for Igawa, he was an unknown commodity with years of success in Japan. While there were mixed reports on him, he could have been ok. Jeff Suppan is and always will be mediocre. If you are a small market team, you have to be more frugal with you funds and not hand out contracts to innings eaters...you can eat innings from within...

The Yankees certainly do have a competitive advantage, but teams are succeeding with limited payrolls. I'm simply arguing that the Brewers are poorly spending money on Riske, Kendall, and Suppan who are mediocre players with mediocre production and are being paid 18+ million dollars to be below average...couldn't you take that 18 million and invest it in a better player? There is competitive advantage and then there are stupid moves. For the Brewers, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan add no value for that price tag. As soon as you signed them they were not going to add any value. A true dynamic player could be paid 18 million a year, instead the Brewers are invested in 3 mediocre players...

Brew Crew
01-02-2009, 01:26 PM
The Yankees certainly do have a competitive advantage, but teams are succeeding with limited payrolls. I'm simply arguing that the Brewers are poorly spending money on Riske, Kendall, and Suppan who are mediocre players with mediocre production and are being paid 18+ million dollars to be below average...couldn't you take that 18 million and invest it in a better player? There is competitive advantage and then there are stupid moves. For the Brewers, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan add no value for that price tag. As soon as you signed them they were not going to add any value. A true dynamic player could be paid 18 million a year, instead the Brewers are invested in 3 mediocre players...

You really don't understand what Brewerfan was saying do you...

We signed Kendall for his defense. What did he give us? An awesome defensive season.

Riske is a decent option out of the pen and without injury I'd beg to differ about him being mediocre.

We signed Suppan as our first "big" contract". We wanted someone who ate and gave us quality innings, and come playoff time could come up big. (Remember, it was like 4 years ago and when we signed him, everyone liked it...Sort of like Michael Redd with the Bucks)

Ok so back to what you aren't comprehending. If we don't sign those guys who the hell is going to play in their spots? Guys who haven't even smelled the majors before? Most of the guys we sign are quality players and only quality at best. Why? Because it's the best we can do. We aren't going to go get 3-4 **** players just so we could add ONE year to a contract. What ****** would do that? Also, we have young players that need to be locked up eventually so there is yet another reason.

Drawantz
01-02-2009, 02:52 PM
I don't know who you replace them with. But would you at least agree that Cameron, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan is a piss poor appropriation of funds for your small market team?

Let's just pretend Cameron at 10 million is a good deal, because it isn't horrible.

Who cares what the going rate for innings eaters is? You have no pitchers in the farm system who can eat innings with a 4.96 ERA for about 10 million dollars less? You have no catchers who could hit .246 with 2 homeruns in 516 at bats? You could probably get a minor league free agent catcher to give you Jason Kendall's dynamic production. And as for David Riske, with the volatility of relief pitchers you couldn't give his spot to a kid in the minors or a minor league free agent?

Look, I know the Yankees spend, but there was upside potential in Kei Igawa and Carl Pavano. Everyone wanted Pavano and as for Igawa, he was an unknown commodity with years of success in Japan. While there were mixed reports on him, he could have been ok. Jeff Suppan is and always will be mediocre. If you are a small market team, you have to be more frugal with you funds and not hand out contracts to innings eaters...you can eat innings from within...

The Yankees certainly do have a competitive advantage, but teams are succeeding with limited payrolls. I'm simply arguing that the Brewers are poorly spending money on Riske, Kendall, and Suppan who are mediocre players with mediocre production and are being paid 18+ million dollars to be below average...couldn't you take that 18 million and invest it in a better player? There is competitive advantage and then there are stupid moves. For the Brewers, Riske, Kendall, and Suppan add no value for that price tag. As soon as you signed them they were not going to add any value. A true dynamic player could be paid 18 million a year, instead the Brewers are invested in 3 mediocre players...

Please Define the term "Succeeding with limited payrolls". It's not quite the same as being in the playoffs for what, 16 straight years is it?

aroy025
01-02-2009, 06:41 PM
You really don't understand what Brewerfan was saying do you...

I don't understand what you are saying.


We signed Suppan as our first "big" contract". We wanted someone who ate and gave us quality innings, and come playoff time could come up big. (Remember, it was like 4 years ago and when we signed him, everyone liked it...)

You signed Jeff Suppan 2 seasons ago after he pitched well for the Cardinals helping them win the 2006 WS. He's an ok pitcher, but he isn't worth 10 million dollars. You guys need to keep your money to sign your own players or sign quality free agents, not innings eaters. You can find innings eaters in the Rule V draft, from your AA/AAA teams, or in the bargain bin...Suppan is a 4-5 starter, that was a bad deal from day 1.


Ok so back to what you aren't comprehending. If we don't sign those guys who the hell is going to play in their spots? Guys who haven't even smelled the majors before?

Absolutely! Why not use guys who have never played in the majors before? Jason Kendall may very well have given you excellent defense, but he hit terribly. You are telling me that you couldn't find a solid .250 hitting catcher who plays quality defense? You guys have Mike Rivera on your roster. I know almost nothing about him, but his career major/minor league numbers would probably project him to be better than Kendall in 2009. My point is you are wasting 4 million dollars on a defense first catcher. Some teams can enjoy that luxury, you are not one of them. I mean Jose Molina is an excellent defensive catcher and makes 2 million dollars to be the Yankees backup catcher...you are telling me you couldn't find a better bargain to play good defense and hit .250 as your catcher?


Riske is a decent option out of the pen and without injury I'd beg to differ about him being mediocre.

Riske is not a bad pitcher, you are right. But lets consider your franchise. You have limited funds and relief pitchers are incredibly inconsistent. Why are you giving out 4 million dollar contracts to anyone but your closer? Look at the Yankees. They have Brian Bruney, Edwar Ramirez, and Jose Veras who were all pulled off the scrap heaps for nothing...why not give that type of pitcher a look? When you don't have tons of money to throw around, why not see what you can salvage from the scrap heaps?

What about internally? You don't have any hard throwing, plus stuff, failing AA/AAA starters? I bet they would make nice relievers...or at least be mildly effective for 4 million dollars less.


Also, we have young players that need to be locked up eventually so there is yet another reason.

Good point. Yet you aren't making one for your argument, you are making one for mine. You have all of these young talented players who are going to be in line for raises. For a team with limited financial means, why have these mediocre and overpaid players when you are going to be needing to lock up your own superstars?

Let's just say that Jason Kendall and David Riske didn't exist and instead were replaced by league minimum players. Wouldn't their 8 million dollars of combined salary help to keep someone around in the future? It's a wasted 8 million dollars. The production difference from Kendall and Riske versus Catcher A and Pitcher B is minimal, so save that money and spend it elsewhere.

I have nothing against the Brewers. I was pulling for you guys in the playoffs mostly because I like your organization and enjoy watching the youthful exuberance your team had last season. I'm just suggesting that your team would be better served spending it's money on guys with some upside. 10 million dollars for Jeff Suppan is a move the Yankees or Red Sox could have afforded, but not the Brewers. At no time should the Brewers ever have spent 10 million dollars on a #4-#5 starter. Innings eater or not that 10 million dollars could have been better allocated.

Without Suppan, Kendall, and Riske you could argue that your team is not significantly worse - if worse at all. Don't you think that 18 million dollars could be better spent on a better pitcher or position player? My guess is yes.

Brew Crew
01-02-2009, 07:09 PM
Alright, this is what I see...

We sign these ok guy like Kendall, Riske, Mota, Cameron, and so on because we know we can count on the guys in the farm to do the hard work. With Braun, Fielder, Hardy, Gallardo, Parra leading the way, we count on them to do the hard work and these other guys like Kendall and so on to play smaller roles. Melvin knows that we have a chance with our farm system already so what would give us a better chance... experienced players or rookies who aren't ready to play? So if this isn't completely confusing, this is what I see.

We don't have enough money YET to get big name guys regularly and Melvin and co. said that Sabathia was a special case and that they wouldn't put out this type of money for anyone else. But you do know that the deal we offered was actually more then reported and I guess New York wins over Milwaukee in sports usually.

JHOHL27
01-03-2009, 12:20 PM
i love melky cabrera i hope the deal goes through

Brew Crew
01-03-2009, 02:11 PM
i love melky cabrera i hope the deal goes through

The deals been dead for quite a while.