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PhillySportFan
09-23-2008, 02:01 PM
Now I am not one who follows politics at all so don't blast me if I say something thats not true but I am pretty sure McCain is going to keep things going how there going from Bush era and Obama will take the troops out of Iraq and all that. Why in the world would you want for us to take our troops out of the middle east like that? I mean do you not think once we leave those places they will regroup and try to make more attacks on the US? I feel like once we leave Iraq and those places the bad guys will group back up and start attacking us again. Not that it's a good thing but wouldn't you rather the war be there then here? Especially living in a major city(Philly) makes me extra nervous because if they attack places it will be major cities. Like I said I don't follow politics at all so I don't know what McCain and Obama thinks about taxes and all the other material things but if they agreed on everything besides war would you not pick McCain or would you rather us retreat? I'm sure you've discussed this in this forum but I never come in here so I just made a topic to get your feelings on that.

SmthBluCitrus
09-23-2008, 02:11 PM
You're right. You are misinformed. (I'm not trying to "blast" you, either).

Obama isn't just going to "take the troops out of Iraq and all that." He'd like to come to a reasonable end to the war so the Iraqi government can take control over their own sovereignty. Then, he wants to refocus the military effort on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area to eliminate al-Qaeda -- the guys that actually perpetrated 9/11 -- and hunt down bin Laden.

Along the way, Obama has designs on repairing and strengthening our relationships around the world in the great hope that we can come together as a world community and help to curb terror tensions.

But, look at it this way ... there is nothing anybody can do to stop a suicide bomber that has their sights set on walking into a public area and detonating themselves. Bush can't stop it, McCain can't stop it, Obama can't stop it; if somebody wants to attack, they're going to do it. Sure, we haven't seen an attack on domestic soil since September 2001. But, we hadn't seen an attack by a foreigner on American soil since 1993 before that (seeing as how Oklahoma City was a homegrown event).

But, continuing to worry about terror is exactly what they want. That's why terrorists do what they do -- to terrorize and cripple. The threat of possible terrorism isn't something you should fret on a day-to-day basis.

WES445
09-23-2008, 04:11 PM
You're right. You are misinformed. (I'm not trying to "blast" you, either).

Obama isn't just going to "take the troops out of Iraq and all that." He'd like to come to a reasonable end to the war so the Iraqi government can take control over their own sovereignty. Then, he wants to refocus the military effort on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area to eliminate al-Qaeda -- the guys that actually perpetrated 9/11 -- and hunt down bin Laden.

Along the way, Obama has designs on repairing and strengthening our relationships around the world in the great hope that we can come together as a world community and help to curb terror tensions.

But, look at it this way ... there is nothing anybody can do to stop a suicide bomber that has their sights set on walking into a public area and detonating themselves. Bush can't stop it, McCain can't stop it, Obama can't stop it; if somebody wants to attack, they're going to do it. Sure, we haven't seen an attack on domestic soil since September 2001. But, we hadn't seen an attack by a foreigner on American soil since 1993 before that (seeing as how Oklahoma City was a homegrown event).

But, continuing to worry about terror is exactly what they want. That's why terrorists do what they do -- to terrorize and cripple. The threat of possible terrorism isn't something you should fret on a day-to-day basis.

Why have people accept the fact that the government can't protect us foreign terrorists striking our cities or domestic terrorists (drug gang) in our poor neighborhood? What good is a government that can't or unable to protect it's citizens? How many people feels this way untill their love ones and friends are taking out by gangs or a terrorists attack? Everybody saying how great america is, but concede the fact that our protection isn't a doable thing? Those who charge to protect us (FBI, CIA) let us down on the twin towers attack. This is a proven fact. Nobody was fired. Nobody felt the heat for their failure. But we did get the Homeland Defense Department. Whoopee!
It is the same with the collaspe on Wall Street. The government didn't foresee this and in some cases allow the situtation to occur with deregulation bills. The famous Reagan line of getting government out of the way of business. Clinton's bill to increase homeownership. Once again noone is held accountable. I am sorry, if our government leaders can't safe guard our economy or protect our children while they play, what good are they? Alot our problems comes from half-*ss programs, departments and politicans. We have accepted the fact that government can't do anything right or what is needed. Still wonder why people have given up on the system and don't vote?

SmthBluCitrus
09-23-2008, 04:18 PM
We can try and curb terror cells, deplete their financial resources, and limit their activities. But, the government can only do so much to prevent acts of terrorism from actually happening. When you're fighting against a person that is willing to die for their (skewed) ideology, that person has the upper hand because you're fighting to protect people from dying.

Take this for example -- we see a series of suicide bombers walk into malls (restaurants, etc ...) throughout the country and detonates their device. This is something that Israel deals with frequently. Why aren't they able to stop it? They've been dealing with that type of event for a few more years than we have. Same in Northern Ireland, London ... how many more do I need to name.

The way to stop terrorism is at the root via education and working towards lifting people out of poverty worldwide by expanding opportunity. But, what do you do about the existing problem? If a man or woman want to blow themselves up in a crowded place ... they're probably going to be able to complete their mission.

WES445
09-23-2008, 04:59 PM
We can't even lifted our own citizens out of poverty. Do we open up opportunity to the world at the expense of our own?
Border security, better screening at the airports, enforce better inter-departments cooperation. A larger police force, where foot patrols are doable. Fund neighberhood watch group with increase police interaction with these groups. Alot witnesses to crimes don't step up because they know they will be dead meat if they do. Our crime prevention systems doesn't work in some areas because of this. The gang are stronger then the police and they have bigger recuirtment surplus. Police forces must get bigger to ensure protection from domestic and foreign attack. Back to National defense, do you know we only capture a small percentage of drugs coming into this country? How many tunnels under the borders have we not found? Now imagine if foreign terrorists had access to these tunnels or just walked across the borders. I know we can't be 100% safe, but lets make it real hard for them.I would do anything in mine power to protect mine own. I believe the government should do the same

WES445
09-23-2008, 05:02 PM
Israel security makes our seem like a bad joke. For thirty-some years, the government couldn't do anything to protect Blacks from lynching mobs. When the heat was apply to politicans rear ends the government had the testicular fortitude to stop them and the KKK terrorist group behind them. Appy the heat and things will be done.

SmthBluCitrus
09-23-2008, 05:16 PM
We can't even lifted our own citizens out of poverty. Do we open up opportunity to the world at the expense of our own?
Border security, better screening at the airports, enforce better inter-departments cooperation. A larger police force, where foot patrols are doable. Fund neighberhood watch group with increase police interaction with these groups. Alot witnesses to crimes don't step up because they know they will be dead meat if they do. Our crime prevention systems doesn't work in some areas because of this. The gang are stronger then the police and they have bigger recuirtment surplus. Police forces must get bigger to ensure protection from domestic and foreign attack. Back to National defense, do you know we only capture a small percentage of drugs coming into this country? How many tunnels under the borders have we not found? Now imagine if foreign terrorists had access to these tunnels or just walked across the borders. I know we can't be 100% safe, but lets make it real hard for them.I would do anything in mine power to protect mine own. I believe the government should do the same

So, what you're saying is that regardless of the time, money, and effort that we put into the "War on Drugs," we don't have the success rate that we should have?

Yet, by the same token, we should expect the government to keep us 100safe and free from the possibility of a terrorist attack. It can't be done. We can shut down borders, limit the number of visa's we give out, and perform countless other security procedures but it's just not going to make us safe.

I'm not saying that "it's futile so why try?" Far from it. But, we still have to attack terrorism at the base. And, yes ... charity begins at home, and we need to take care of our own before we can really begin to expand that to the rest of the world. But, that doesn't mean we can't cooperate with world leaders, expand trading partners, and work to make the world a better place to live. It's about education, allowing the lower classes of the world to rise up and become a new middle class, giving them the opportunity to provide for themselves and their families.

Yes, it's ideological. But, I'm allowed.

Randy West
09-23-2008, 05:31 PM
The only people " for " war are those that have never been involved in one personally.

I am sure there are some exceptions to that just like everything else though so just my opinion on it.

WES445
09-23-2008, 06:05 PM
So, what you're saying is that regardless of the time, money, and effort that we put into the "War on Drugs," we don't have the success rate that we should have?

Yet, by the same token, we should expect the government to keep us 100safe and free from the possibility of a terrorist attack. It can't be done. We can shut down borders, limit the number of visa's we give out, and perform countless other security procedures but it's just not going to make us safe.

I'm not saying that "it's futile so why try?" Far from it. But, we still have to attack terrorism at the base. And, yes ... charity begins at home, and we need to take care of our own before we can really begin to expand that to the rest of the world. But, that doesn't mean we can't cooperate with world leaders, expand trading partners, and work to make the world a better place to live. It's about education, allowing the lower classes of the world to rise up and become a new middle class, giving them the opportunity to provide for themselves and their families.

Yes, it's ideological. But, I'm allowed.

The war on drugs is a joke. We have been waging this war since Reagan and the drug lords are richer and every child in america can get drugs if they want it. I have seen drug deals being conducted in Mcdonalds' parking lots. We only fight this war on the lowest level, thus can't be won. Over twenty years and this is the results? You can't be happy with this.
No, I don't expect 100% security, but when border patrol agents say they need more men, and they don't get them, I am pissed. When airport security deny a child acess to a plane because his name is on a watch list, I am pissed. These are signs that things aren't that tight. Terrorists attacks will increase in this country so why is the government being half-***** about it's committment to protect us? If the drug war was successful, I would feel more secure about our anti-terrorist plans. Like our drug war , our anti-terrorist plans are a smoke and mirror act. We deserve better. You say we must accept this like the sun in the morning. I say no for the health of our nation. Read what happen to China during the Opuim War in the late 1800s when they couldn't protect their borders from drugs or foreign interests. I admire your believes. If you were mine age, I am sure you would have been by my side in the anti-war protest during the late sixties and early seventies. But I can't believe in high and noble ideas anymore, because there are to many people who are self-serving at the expense of others. Case in point, UN food relief sended to the Sudan was being sold to it's people at a big profit by its leaders. Ever wonder how can ex- africians leaders flee their ravish nation with millions of dollars? If countries leaders are corrupt, how can you help their countries?

mmmdelish
09-23-2008, 06:41 PM
The only people " for " war are those that have never been involved in one personally.

I am sure there are some exceptions to that just like everything else though so just my opinion on it.

THIS (http://blog.pharmalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/o_rly.jpg)

tomno00
09-23-2008, 07:17 PM
i never really supported the war, but it seems to be working now. Whether you agree with it or not, it certainly (in my eyes) has prevented a lot of those people from comming over here and causing harm.

CubsGirl
09-23-2008, 07:18 PM
The only people " for " war are those that have never been involved in one personally.

I am sure there are some exceptions to that just like everything else though so just my opinion on it.
The concept of war is just so beyond me:

"We send our little people to kill your little people until one of us wipes the other out, or our big, apathetic people decide to kiss and make up."

captainatheism
09-23-2008, 07:21 PM
What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

tomno00
09-23-2008, 07:21 PM
The concept of war is just so beyond me:

"We send our little people to kill your little people until one of us wipes the other out, or our big, apathetic people decide to kiss and make up."

well since the existence of mankind, people have been killing each other. The world is a f-uped place. I just hope that Iraq and its people realize what they have now that they didnt 5 years ago and that the United States isnt such a bad country after all.

hoosiercubsfan
09-23-2008, 09:57 PM
well since the existence of mankind, people have been killing each other. The world is a f-uped place. I just hope that Iraq and its people realize what they have now that they didnt 5 years ago and that the United States isnt such a bad country after all.

Why should the Iraqi people trust us when after the first Gulf War we left asking them to rise up and we would be there to support them. Problem was when they rose up we did not support them and they where slaughtered because of it. They now finally trust that we are not going to turn tail and run when the job is not quite finished yet. That and the surge are what is causing the war to be won. I was not really in favor of the war to begin with but the problem is we are there now there is no getting out without finishing the job.

WES445
09-24-2008, 01:45 AM
Why should the Iraqi people trust us when after the first Gulf War we left asking them to rise up and we would be there to support them. Problem was when they rose up we did not support them and they where slaughtered because of it. They now finally trust that we are not going to turn tail and run when the job is not quite finished yet. That and the surge are what is causing the war to be won. I was not really in favor of the war to begin with but the problem is we are there now there is no getting out without finishing the job.

Was that the Kurds in the north? I think I remember something on it. Finishing the job how? What would call a good job there?

Doc Fluty
09-24-2008, 04:53 AM
The only people " for " war are those that have never been involved in one personally.

I am sure there are some exceptions to that just like everything else though so just my opinion on it.

im "for" the war... and yeah ive been involved in it personally...

Im a disabled vet who lost a few friends over there... and i think in 25-30 years, when the schools are rebuilt.. and its all said and done.. no one in iraq or america will think that 5000 soldiers, sailors and marines lost their lives in a mistake...

the people wont live under the fear of a genocidal, warring, dictator (nad his sons) with pictures and statues all around bagdad to remind people of how little their hopes and dreams are worth in their own country

WES445
09-24-2008, 06:42 AM
im "for" the war... and yeah ive been involved in it personally...

Im a disabled vet who lost a few friends over there... and i think in 25-30 years, when the schools are rebuilt.. and its all said and done.. no one in iraq or america will think that 5000 soldiers, sailors and marines lost their lives in a mistake...

the people wont live under the fear of a genocidal, warring, dictator (nad his sons) with pictures and statues all around bagdad to remind people of how little their hopes and dreams are worth in their own country
First I would like to say, I pray that the good lord keep your friends safe. We have crossed swords before on this forum, and your words have lefted a bitter taste, but I respect your service to this nation and wish you well.
No one will ever think that our servicemen and women,who losted their lives, made any mistakes. They will always be seen as the best and bravest of us all. Our political leaders made the mistake in sending them there, not giving them proper equiments,not having enough soliders to seal the Iraq border in the early days, not knowing the different muslim sect there and their history long fued. After what our military personels have been thru there, some our leaders didn't even want to increase their benefits. No the troops, as always, never bit** and did their job up and beyond the call of duty. I tell each and every service man and woman I meet, they are the best and god speed in returning to their families. It is time for the Iraq people to carry the load now. They must fight for a just government for their descendants like our forefathers did for us. No one gave us our freedom, we fought for it. We know the cost of it, protect it and cherish it. They (Iraq) should have done this themselves. They will never cherish our losted warriors, liked Europe did after the WW II.

hoosiercubsfan
09-24-2008, 07:53 AM
Was that the Kurds in the north? I think I remember something on it. Finishing the job how? What would call a good job there?

Yes I believe it was the Kurds in the north. And I believe we are doing a good job there now finally. A good job to me is to give the country to the leaders better than we entered it. And with Saddam and his sons no longer in charge, the Mahdi (sp?) army in shambles, and acts of violence on a severe decline I consider that a success. On top of that an Iraqi army and police force that are increasingly taking more and more control of their own country. To me that is what I consider a good job. At this point it doesn't matter if you where for or against the war we are there and need to finish the job we started.

And as to my feelings on the war I think we should have finished up more in Afghanistan before getting involved in Iraq. I am happy that a tyrannical dictator and his sons are gone though. The amount of torture they inflicted on their own people is just staggering to think about. So the fact that they are no longer drawing breaths on this earth is completely fine by me.

ari1013
09-24-2008, 09:41 AM
Why should the Iraqi people trust us when after the first Gulf War we left asking them to rise up and we would be there to support them. Problem was when they rose up we did not support them and they where slaughtered because of it. They now finally trust that we are not going to turn tail and run when the job is not quite finished yet. That and the surge are what is causing the war to be won. I was not really in favor of the war to begin with but the problem is we are there now there is no getting out without finishing the job.
Those were the Kurds -- and we haven't exactly done anything for them now either. That's probably why they literally trenched themselves off from the rest of Iraq.

Doc Fluty
09-24-2008, 11:51 PM
First I would like to say, I pray that the good lord keep your friends safe. We have crossed swords before on this forum, and your words have lefted a bitter taste, but I respect your service to this nation and wish you well.
No one will ever think that our servicemen and women,who losted their lives, made any mistakes. They will always be seen as the best and bravest of us all. Our political leaders made the mistake in sending them there, not giving them proper equiments,not having enough soliders to seal the Iraq border in the early days, not knowing the different muslim sect there and their history long fued. After what our military personels have been thru there, some our leaders didn't even want to increase their benefits. No the troops, as always, never bit** and did their job up and beyond the call of duty. I tell each and every service man and woman I meet, they are the best and god speed in their return to their families. It is time for the Iraq people to carry the load now. They must fight for a just government for their descendants like our forefathers did for us. No one gave us our freedom, we fought for it. We know the cost of it, protect it and cherish it. They (Iraq) should have done this themselves. They will never cherish our losted warriors, liked Europe did after the WW II.

I know ive said some half ******** stuff in this forum but sometimes i see the hypocrisy, spin and flat out silly stuff that gets talked about in this forum and it drives me batshit (one of the reasons i dont post much in here anymore).

like the SNL skit with tod palin having incest with his daughters... its just irresponsible, disgusting and absurd... but if it was a skit about Obama and his little girls the world would be on fire.

but anyway... thanks for your thoughts on the service men and women..:cheers: