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DenButsu
09-17-2008, 03:53 AM
The most important thing to keep in mind through all of this is that the federal government's own United States Election Assistance Commission (in its original report) and numerous academic studies have all confirmed the same conclusion:


“there is widespread but not unanimous agreement that there is little polling place fraud”


^That was the EAC's original finding, but they later revised it (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/washington/11voters.html?hp).


Or in other words, the entire concept that there is some big problem with "voter fraud" is a FAKE problem, manufactured for the political purpose of influencing the outcome of elections.

So, with that established, the co-chair of McCain's campaign in Wisconsin has kicked off this year's festivities:


Van Hollen's lawsuit will muck up election, voting officials say

A lawsuit filed by the state attorney general Wednesday has the potential to slow down voting lines in what promises to be a staggering turnout for the Nov. 4 election, local voting officials said.

"It will disenfranchise voters. That's what we're concerned about," City Clerk Maribeth Witzel-Behl said.

Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen, a Republican, filed the lawsuit Monday in Dane County Circuit Court to get ineligible voters off the rolls. It calls for a court order mandating the Government Accountability Board to cross-check voters who have registered since Jan. 1, 2006, when federal Help America Vote Act legislation required that states implement a voter database to cross-check voter registrations with Department of Transportation, criminal and death records.

"We're working on plans to make sure we don't have long lines at the polls, make sure that the lines can move smoothly and quickly," Witzel-Behl said. "If we throw this into the mix, then it is going to slow things down."

The GAB didn't have the voter registration system up and running until Aug. 6 of this year and has said it will cross-check from that date on. Van Hollen said that to comply with federal law, the state has to go back to the federal deadline.

Van Hollen spokesman Kevin St. John said Van Hollen wants the GAB to verify voters who registered by mail since Jan. 1, 2006, because they didn't have to show an ID.

In a written response, Government Accountability Board Director Kevin Kennedy said the board is committed to preventing voter fraud, but Van Hollen's demands are too much, too soon.

"The board believes it would be counter-productive to rush this effort and to create a significant risk, at best of unnecessary hardship and confusion at the polls, and at worst the disenfranchisement of Wisconsin citizens with a clear and legitimate right to vote," he said.

If a judge rules in Van Hollen's favor, Witzel-Behl said city staffers would have to check 3,612 voters who registered by mail since the beginning of 2006. They have already processed 1,256 registrations that have been filed since the statewide database went online last month and have sent 100 letters to voters whose information didn't match and got 37 responses. The discrepancies typically come from names that are written differently on voter registration forms than on driver's licenses or driver's license numbers that are wrong or illegible.

"A lot of it is us trying to decipher their penmanship," she said.

Witzel-Behl said if Van Hollen's lawsuit prevails, the city will have to send letter to voters whose registrations are questioned, which the GAB has found to be more than 20 percent. The voters will have to clear up the discrepancies, and then the city has to run the information through another check.

And as the election approaches, the phones at clerks' offices get busier, so people calling back to resolve discrepancies will be less likely to get through.

"The closer we get to the election, the less time we have to clear things up," Witzel-Behl said.

Diane Hermann-Brown, Sun Prairie city clerk, said the court needs to act quickly if it wants counties and municipalities to comply.

"I don't think he's wrong on what he's doing," she said of Van Hollen. "It probably needs to get done. It just should have been done sooner."

A status conference on Van Hollen's lawsuit is set before Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi on Sept. 19.

"That only gives us 2 1/2 weeks before we run our poll books," Hermann-Brown said. "That's not enough time."

If the court sides with Van Hollen, clerks are concerned voters who do not resolve the discrepancies will have to re-register at the polling place, leaving those behind them to wait.

"I think we're expecting all eligible voters to appear on election day, and a lot of those have not yet registered," said Linda Cory, Fitchburg city clerk. "So in addition to that we would have to verify the ones prior. It's going to cause a lot of work. If that goes through, we'll have to staff extra people."

Witzel-Behl said the net effect of the lawsuit, if it is successful, will be to discourage people from voting.

"It's going to slow down the lines," she said. "And it will not only affect the people who have been flagged in the poll book, but the people who are standing behind that individual who have all come to the polls to vote."

She said people might avoid Election Day problems by checking their own registration status at http://vpa.wi.gov.

Election politics: Van Hollen's move has elicited howls from Democratic officials and progressive activists because many believe the people most likely to be flagged by the voter database will vote Democratic, in part because Democratic-aligned groups have done the lion's share of voter registration.

State Democratic Chairman Joe Wineke said Van Hollen is "trying to distract and deny voters with fear-mongering."

"This ploy by the Republican attorney general is nothing more than a waste of taxpayer dollars and a cynical attempt to disenfranchise eligible voters less than two months before the November election," he said in a press release.

The Progressive group One Wisconsin Now called on Van Hollen to recuse himself from any legal action connected to the general election because his role as GOP presidential candidate John McCain's statewide campaign co-chair constitutes a clear conflict of interest.

"McCain talks about country first," said Scot Ross, the group's executive director. "Van Hollen practices party first."

St. John, Van Hollen's spokesman, said Van Hollen sees no conflict.http://www.madison.com/tct/news/304606

cambovenzi
09-17-2008, 04:07 AM
i think an IQ test would be more appropriate:)
or a test in which you have to be able to tell what your candidate stands for.

although these people are a little excessive with their bashing of the idea to make sure the voters are legally supposed to be voting.

pretty important thing to make sure of IMO.

DenButsu
09-17-2008, 04:14 AM
i think an IQ test would be more appropriate:)
or a test in which you have to be able to tell what your candidate stands for.

although these people are a little excessive with their bashing of the idea to make sure the voters are legally supposed to be voting.

pretty important thing to make sure of IMO.


Yeah, but the thing is, the 11th hour timing is not accidental. What's being done here (as was done extensively in the last two elections) is a totally transparent effort to obstruct the ability of regular, legitimately registered people to just get to their polling place and vote in a reasonable fashion.

By (at worst) manufacturing the illusion of a voter fraud problem where none exists, or (at best) greatly exaggerating the very minimal fraud that might exist, what they are doing - and this is deliberate, this is the point - is creating a far, far worse - and very REAL problem - that of voter intimidation, suppression, and disfranchisement.


Essentially, where Democrats make great efforts to get people registered and out the door to vote, Republicans make equally great efforts to purge legitimate voters' registration, inconvenience them, make news headlines about how long the lines are at polling places and how chaotic things are there, and keep people home.

But yeah, "country first". :rolleyes:

ink
09-17-2008, 10:30 AM
Republicans up to similar tactics in Ohio too ...


The Northeast Ohio Coalition for the Homeless, a Cleveland-based umbrella group for service providers, housing activists and others, is making plans to drive about 2,000 shelter residents to polling places during the overlap period. "This is a huge opportunity to prove to elected officials that very low-income people do vote," said Brian Davis, executive director of the group.

Republican officials are furious, charging that the one-stop process will encourage voter fraud. They argue that a state law requires Ohio residents to register at least 30 days before voting, so same-day registration and voting should be banned.

Ms. Brunner's position is that early ballots do not constitute votes until they are tabulated on Nov. 4, said Jeff Ortega, a spokesman for Ms. Brunner. In a statement about Friday's lawsuit, Ms. Brunner said, "It is unfortunate that a small, but vocal, group of Republican leaders continues to inject confusion and chaos in our elections."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122125136545029511.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

gcoll
09-17-2008, 12:21 PM
that of voter intimidation, suppression, and disfranchisement
I think that's going a bit far.

Intimidation?

It may be somewhat of a manufactured issue, but in cases of alleged voter fraud, Republicans usually get the short end of the stick.

And the voting laws that we (arizona) passed, were passed by the people. Mostly because of the illegal immigrant issue. People don't want illegals voting. We always pass immigration voter initiatives here, and they always get turned over by the court, or stalled...and whatnot. Kind of funny.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 12:26 PM
Every time I go vote they ask me for my voter registration card and my ID. I show it and then go vote. How is that voter intimidation, suppression, or disfranchisement? I dont get it. I dont feel suppressed when people ask me to show proof of identification when I vote. Why would I?

ink
09-17-2008, 12:26 PM
in cases of alleged voter fraud, Republicans usually get the short end of the stick.

Ohio and diebold, 2004???

Flordia and "hanging chads", 2000???

Those two cases clinched the elections for Bush.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Every time I go vote they ask me for my voter registration card and my ID. I show it and then go vote. How is that voter intimidation, suppression, or disfranchisement? I dont get it. I dont feel suppressed when people ask me to show proof of identification when I vote. Why would I?
That's not voter suppression if that's what's required in your home state. Many states don't require that you bring a separate ID beyond your voter ID card. And yet in those states, you have people standing in line and getting turned back for not having a driver's license with them. That's suppression.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 12:52 PM
You don't even need your voter ID card in Iowa. Walk-in, sign your name, hand it to the polling clerk, get your ballot, mark your ballot, put it in the optic machine, get your sticker. :D

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 12:53 PM
That's not voter suppression if that's what's required in your home state. Many states don't require that you bring a separate ID beyond your voter ID card. And yet in those states, you have people standing in line and getting turned back for not having a driver's license with them. That's suppression.

In my opinion all states should have laws making you show id so you are who you say you are. That is not too much to ask. Banks ask for id, Police ask for ID, even convenience stores ask for proof of identification. Should we want voter fraud where people claim to be somebody they are not therefore possibly enabling them to vote more than 1 time?

As far as people being asked to show it nobody knows who they will vote for before they go in. Dont the majority of people drive to the polls? Dont you need a license to drive?

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 12:56 PM
You don't even need your voter ID card in Iowa. Walk-in, sign your name, hand it to the polling clerk, get your ballot, mark your ballot, put it in the optic machine, get your sticker. :D

Do you think that is a good system? Seems to be an invitation to fraud.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 12:58 PM
Do you think that is a good system? Seems to be an invitation to fraud.

I'm sure that it does. The system has benefits and weaknesses. I wouldn't necessarily be against a re-structuring, but I'm not going to be a part of a movement that pushes for one either.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 01:03 PM
I'm sure that it does. The system has benefits and weaknesses. I wouldn't necessarily be against a re-structuring, but I'm not going to be a part of a movement that pushes for one either.

People have to show more proof of ID than that just to walk in to a Costco. :)

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Maybe ... maybe not. We also don't have a lot of public call for re-structure, nor a lot of voter disenfranchisement. We don't have Ohio or Florida style voting problems.

If it ain't broke ...

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 01:12 PM
Maybe ... maybe not. We also don't have a lot of public call for re-structure, nor a lot of voter disenfranchisement. We don't have Ohio or Florida style voting problems.

If it ain't broke ...

Would it hurt to have people show ID so that we know that they actually are who they say they are? If voting is important should we have that very basic requirement? It takes 10 seconds for somebody to look at a ID. If people do not have to register in any way or show any ID what is to stop a person from claiming they are somebody else or voting in more than one place? I just sent for my voter registration card yesterday. :)

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:21 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just not advocating changing the system in my state, because (right now) it works. We don't have the problems that other states have. If state public opinion is in favor of advocating voter identification it'll be a different story. But, right now ... it's not.

b1e9a8r5s
09-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Oh I love it. The big bad republicans are back to scare and intimidate. Meanwhile, the Dems are running a candidate who "won" his first "election" by out lawyering his opponents, but it’s the republicans we should be afraid of. Spare me.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 01:30 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just not advocating changing the system in my state, because (right now) it works. We don't have the problems that other states have. If state public opinion is in favor of advocating voter identification it'll be a different story. But, right now ... it's not.

I understand what you are saying. I just dont know how anyone can tell if fraud is going on there if nobody actually knows if anyone is who they say they are. Is there anything to stop many people from showing up saying they are a bunch of dead people like we have heard has been done in previous elections? :)

By the way my state doesnt have any Florida like problems either but we do use voter registration cards and photo Ids. I dont have a problem with showing my photo id since I am who I say I am. :)

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Well, our biggest city is Des Moines at about 200,000 people (500,000 in the metro). And, I know this is kind of cliche, but most polling clerks know the people in their district. Granted, there are a lot of transient voters in the state. But, they tend to come out in small numbers (likely to change this cycle). It's difficult to commit fraud when people know names, ya know?

Not saying it doesn't happen ... not saying clerks know everybody in their district. I'm sure it does somewhere along the line.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 01:42 PM
Well, our biggest city is Des Moines at about 200,000 people (500,000 in the metro). And, I know this is kind of cliche, but most polling clerks know the people in their district. Granted, there are a lot of transient voters in the state. But, they tend to come out in small numbers (likely to change this cycle). It's difficult to commit fraud when people know names, ya know?

Not saying it doesn't happen ... not saying clerks know everybody in their district. I'm sure it does somewhere along the line.

I'm sure you are right about the majority of people but I also feel there are plenty of people that are probably not known. For example I live in a very small city (6700 people) BUT I'm pretty sure the people working the polls do not know me.

gcoll
09-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Ohio and diebold, 2004???

Flordia and "hanging chads", 2000???

Those two cases clinched the elections for Bush.
Neither of those would be "voter fraud" though.

And I don't know many people who cling to Ohio in 2004, other than people like Randi Rhodes and whatnot.

And Florida in 2000 is one of the most misunderstood events in a while. Possibly outdone by Scooter Libby though.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm sure you are right about the majority of people but I also feel there are plenty of people that are probably not known. For example I live in a very small city (6700 people) BUT I'm pretty sure the people working the polls do not know me.

Good call.

I don't know ... it just hasn't really been an issue here. It's just one of those things where "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:55 PM
Here's something interesting. I know this is just some diary from Daily Kos, but I got linked to it from another site. It's about voter registration in Ohio, and hopes of easing the electoral process there.

Note: Please look past the obvious bias from the site, and see the event for what it is. GOTV is a huge aspect of any state campaign.


Ohio Golden Week Voter Drive

Ohio has a "golden week" - Sept 30 to Oct 6 - in which you can REGISTER AND VOTE all in the same day. That means no 8 hour lines, no finding out you aren't registered and being stuck, no phony provisional ballots, etc. This is our chance to really GOTV before the other side goes into full gear with their SOTV campaigns (suppress out the vote).

But... we need help. Whatever you can give...people, cars, money, all of the above. And if you can't do any of those things, rec this diary and forward the message on. Details below.

Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/15/154935/208/300/599748)

b1e9a8r5s
09-17-2008, 01:56 PM
Good call.

I don't know ... it just hasn't really been an issue here. It's just one of those things where "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

You say it hasn't been an issue, but if no one is looking at it, how could you find anything. I think all states should have the same standards when it comes to the presidential election.

gcoll
09-17-2008, 01:57 PM
Do you not see how a campaign to grab every tom dick and harry off the street, and throw them in a booth......will draw some attention?

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 01:58 PM
You say it hasn't been an issue, but if no one is looking at it, how could you find anything. I think all states should have the same standards when it comes to the presidential election.

What ... federalize elections?? But ... but ... but ... you're limiting states rights.

:D

It's been an issue in other states, hasn't it? So, they changed the regulations. Therefore, it wasn't an issue until it was an issue. By comparison, they haven't called for regulation of anything (except the caucus system following this previous January's caucus ... and possibly a change to same-day voter registration).

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:12 PM
One of the high up guys here at our College Republicans chapter got a job at the polling station in Philly, and yes, he is Republican in the most liberal place on earth. Anyway, He said that in 04, the guys working at the polling station would accompany any older people into the voting booth and vote Democrat down the line. This is against the law--they're only allowed into the booth if the older people ask for their assistance. They never asked for assistance, however, and after a few times of this being obvious, he asked the guy what the hell he was doing. Well the guy happened to be a big black dude, who proceeded to threaten my friend, and said he was going to get his people (crew, homies, etc.) to straighten him out. They figured out he was Republican, but before they could kill him, he got the **** out of there. He did subsequently file a complaint, but of course, in Philadelphia, they just ignored him.

****ing douchebags :pity:

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:14 PM
That's bad.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:16 PM
That's bad.

It's morally disgusting, even though we know we have no chance of ever winning Philly, no one should stoop to that level.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:17 PM
Agreed

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:21 PM
In my opinion all states should have laws making you show id so you are who you say you are. That is not too much to ask. Banks ask for id, Police ask for ID, even convenience stores ask for proof of identification. Should we want voter fraud where people claim to be somebody they are not therefore possibly enabling them to vote more than 1 time?

As far as people being asked to show it nobody knows who they will vote for before they go in. Dont the majority of people drive to the polls? Dont you need a license to drive?

I agree with the first part -- you should have something at least. Iowa's got a very strong code of ethics as a state on the whole, but some other states don't.

As for the second part, no. I've never driven to my polling place. That's what's great about America. You vote where you live. There's no central voting booth that everyone uses. Every neighborhood has its own specific vote location -- and that's true of everywhere I've lived in this country.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:25 PM
One of the high up guys here at our College Republicans chapter got a job at the polling station in Philly, and yes, he is Republican in the most liberal place on earth. Anyway, He said that in 04, the guys working at the polling station would accompany any older people into the voting booth and vote Democrat down the line. This is against the law--they're only allowed into the booth if the older people ask for their assistance. They never asked for assistance, however, and after a few times of this being obvious, he asked the guy what the hell he was doing. Well the guy happened to be a big black dude, who proceeded to threaten my friend, and said he was going to get his people (crew, homies, etc.) to straighten him out. They figured out he was Republican, but before they could kill him, he got the **** out of there. He did subsequently file a complaint, but of course, in Philadelphia, they just ignored him.

****ing douchebags :pity:
That's very bad -- and that's exactly what this thread is about. It doesn't matter who does it, it's wrong either way.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 02:31 PM
I agree with the first part -- you should have something at least. Iowa's got a very strong code of ethics as a state on the whole, but some other states don't.

As for the second part, no. I've never driven to my polling place. That's what's great about America. You vote where you live. There's no central voting booth that everyone uses. Every neighborhood has its own specific vote location -- and that's true of everywhere I've lived in this country.


LOL Ari I knew that was coming that is why I said dont the majority of people drive to the polls. I know some people in some cities do not drive. :)

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:31 PM
That's very bad -- and that's exactly what this thread is about. It doesn't matter who does it, it's wrong either way.

I completely agree. I mean, as wrong as it is, if it were in a place that is split politically, I would sort of get it, but Philadelphia? Philly has gone 77, 80, 80% Democrat over the last three elections...What the hell is the point of cheating for a place so Liberal?

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:34 PM
I completely agree. I mean, as wrong as it is, if it were in a place that is split politically, I would sort of get it, but Philadelphia? Philly has gone 77, 80, 80% Democrat over the last three elections...What the hell is the point of cheating for a place so Liberal?

Because the middle of the state is Alabama ... lol

Rack up those votes in the cities to counter balance those in the interior.

Kidding

gcoll
09-17-2008, 02:37 PM
Rack up those votes in the cities to counter balance those in the interior.
Don't a lot of the "get out the vote" places, take place in those cities? And on college campuses, and things like that?

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:38 PM
LOL Ari I knew that was coming that is why I said dont the majority of people drive to the polls. I know some people in some cities do not drive. :)
I'm really saying that most don't. I usually see people walking when I walk.

Most people in this country live in urban areas. For those people it's very easy to walk to your booth.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:40 PM
GOTV happens all over. I suppose it's less frequent in rural areas. So, yes ... I suppose you're right.

Iowa is known to run GOTV events in grocery store parking lots, for instance. They're run by dual party staff most of the time. But, they get people registered, and get ABRs filled out.

Speaking of which, our Absentee Ballots go out next week. Woot woot. I'll have voted for President before October.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Don't a lot of the "get out the vote" places, take place in those cities? And on college campuses, and things like that?

In fact, Rock the Vote is gonna be at Temple on Friday. I wonder who Talib Kweli is going to tell me to vote for :whistle:

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Don't a lot of the "get out the vote" places, take place in those cities? And on college campuses, and things like that?
Of course. That's also where voter registration is at its lowest.

Here's how it works. There are far more people in this country that would vote Democrat... if they voted; than that would vote Republican... if they voted.

Among registered Republicans, turnout always is much higher than their Democratic counterparts. The only way the Dems ever can match that is by just having a larger raw number.

75% of 1,000,000 is 750,000 votes.
50% of 1.5 million is 750,000 votes.

That's how it works.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:41 PM
LOL Ari I knew that was coming that is why I said dont the majority of people drive to the polls. I know some people in some cities do not drive. :)

Mine is literally across the street from me.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
GOTV happens all over. I suppose it's less frequent in rural areas. So, yes ... I suppose you're right.

Iowa is known to run GOTV events in grocery store parking lots, for instance. They're run by dual party staff most of the time. But, they get people registered, and get ABRs filled out.

Speaking of which, our Absentee Ballots go out next week. Woot woot. I'll have voted for President before October.
Yeah I saw people doing it at a HyVee in Waterloo last week. I'll be back through that area this weekend on my way to Minneapolis again.

Maybe I'll stop in Iowa City this time. Gotta mix up what is otherwise a very corny eight hours.

gcoll
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
GOTV happens all over. I suppose it's less frequent in rural areas. So, yes ... I suppose you're right.

Right.

And what political affiliation do you believe has the most people involved with this "get out the vote" effort?

Now. I'm not saying that "get out the vote" is a bad thing.

Just that if you accuse Republicans of having ulterior motives for supporting stricter guidelines for voter registration, I don't think you can overlook the coincidences of where these voter registration rallies and whatnot, take place, and who runs them.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Mine is literally across the street from me.
I think things are just different in Texas. The cities there are so spread out.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:43 PM
In fact, Rock the Vote is gonna be at Temple on Friday. I wonder who Talib Kweli is going to tell me to vote for :whistle:

I hate Rock the Vote.

Voting doesn't need to be made "cool" or "hip." It's a civic duty. Just get out there and do it.

Sorry, that just cheeses me off.

Yes ... I said cheeses.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Right.

And what political affiliation do you believe has the most people involved with this "get out the vote" effort?

Now. I'm not saying that "get out the vote" is a bad thing.

Just that if you accuse Republicans of having ulterior motives for supporting stricter guidelines for voter registration, I don't think you can overlook the coincidences of where these voter registration rallies and whatnot, take place, and who runs them.

I hope that wasn't directed at me, personally.

ink
09-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Neither of those would be "voter fraud" though.

And I don't know many people who cling to Ohio in 2004, other than people like Randi Rhodes and whatnot.

And Florida in 2000 is one of the most misunderstood events in a while. Possibly outdone by Scooter Libby though.

The House Judiciary Committee actually did a five week investigation into thousands of complaints by Ohio voters, and produced a report condemning voter fraud, malfeasance and incompetence in the state. The media didn't touch it.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:46 PM
I hate Rock the Vote.

Voting doesn't need to be made "cool" or "hip." It's a civic duty. Just get out there and do it.

Sorry, that just cheeses me off.

Yes ... I said cheeses.
That reminds me... I forgot to watch Weeds this week.

ink
09-17-2008, 02:46 PM
I hate Rock the Vote.

Voting doesn't need to be made "cool" or "hip." It's a civic duty. Just get out there and do it.



That's why I loved that Craig Ferguson monologue. He says the same kind of thing.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 02:47 PM
I think things are just different in Texas. The cities there are so spread out.

Well I dont live in a city, but most of the towns here arent terribly spread out, although not THAT close together. I just happen to live near the elementary school.


I hate Rock the Vote.

Voting doesn't need to be made "cool" or "hip." It's a civic duty. Just get out there and do it.

Sorry, that just cheeses me off.

Yes ... I said cheeses.

I hate it too, even though one of my favorite rappers is gonna be on campus (telling me to vote Liberal, of course). My problem with it is that people here are voting for Obama because he's cool, hip, listens to rap, and is black.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:48 PM
OK, never seen Weeds ... so I don't know that reference.

And, I forgot about that Craig Ferguson bit. But, yes ... exactly.

gcoll
09-17-2008, 02:48 PM
I hope that wasn't directed at me, personally.

No. That's directed at the argument. It's a common argument, and one that I can actually see the merits of.

It wasn't a "you" in reference to anyone in particular.




I hate Rock the Vote.

Voting doesn't need to be made "cool" or "hip." It's a civic duty. Just get out there and do it.

Sorry, that just cheeses me off.

Yes ... I said cheeses.

What about "Vote or DIE!!!"


The House Judiciary Committee actually did a five week investigation into thousands of complaints by Ohio voters, and produced a report condemning voter fraud, malfeasance and incompetence in the state. The media didn't touch it.
So......you think voter fraud is a problem?

ink
09-17-2008, 02:51 PM
So......you think voter fraud is a problem?

Uh, yeah. lol. The report actually pointed a finger directly at Secretary of State Blackwell, co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio.

SmthBluCitrus
09-17-2008, 02:52 PM
No. That's directed at the argument. It's a common argument, and one that I can actually see the merits of.

It wasn't a "you" in reference to anyone in particular.

Ok, thanks.


What about "Vote or DIE!!!"

I hated "Vote or DIE!!!" too. I really don't like it any time "celebrity" gets in the way ... whether it's Diddy, Oprah, or Chuck Norris. Fred Thompson is even crossing the line ;) (another joke).

ari1013
09-17-2008, 02:53 PM
Well I dont live in a city, but most of the towns here arent terribly spread out, although not THAT close together. I just happen to live near the elementary school.



I hate it too, even though one of my favorite rappers is gonna be on campus (telling me to vote Liberal, of course). My problem with it is that people here are voting for Obama because he's cool, hip, listens to rap, and is black.
You're in the Philly metro area though. My address says Saint Louis, but I don't technically live in that hole-of-a-city. Just the metro area.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 02:57 PM
I think things are just different in Texas. The cities there are so spread out.

LOL Ari I lived in NY for over 20 years as well and it would have taken me hours to walk to our polling place there. In fact my polling place in Texas is much closer distance wise than the one we had in NY. :)

ari1013
09-17-2008, 03:00 PM
LOL Ari I lived in NY for over 20 years as well and it would have taken me hours to walk to our polling place there. In fact my polling place in Texas is much closer distance wise than the one we had in NY. :)
Really? I lived all across NY and never had to go much further than a mile to my polling location. It was always at the closest church, fire station, or library.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Really? I lived all across NY and never had to go much further than a mile to my polling location. It was always at the closest church, fire station, or library.

This was on Long Island. It was at a school that I would guesstimate to be around 5 miles away.

My place now is also a school and I would guesstimate its only around a 20 minute walk for me but the parking lot is full of cars on election days because many people do not live as close as I do. That is why we have school buses for the kids. :)

ari1013
09-17-2008, 03:06 PM
This was on Long Island. It was at a school that I would guesstimate to be around 5 miles away.

My place now is also a school and I would guesstimate its only around a 20 minute walk for me but the parking lot is full of cars on election days because many people do not live as close as I do. That is why we have school buses for the kids. :)
Yeah nevermind. Long Island is its own little world. I've never lived there.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 03:09 PM
You're in the Philly metro area though. My address says Saint Louis, but I don't technically live in that hole-of-a-city. Just the metro area.

Yeah, I live in the suburbs, though, which are laid out very differently from the city.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 03:09 PM
Yeah nevermind. Long Island is its own little world. I've never lived there.

You're not missing much. It's a dump and dbag city.

ari1013
09-17-2008, 03:14 PM
You're not missing much. It's a dump and dbag city.
Not from what I've seen of it... I've just never lived there. It's just too pretentious for me.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 03:16 PM
Not from what I've seen of it... I've just never lived there. It's just too pretentious for me.

Yeah, it's the worst attitude in the entire world. Where Long Islanders were/were not was actually pretty important in my college search. BU had some, but it had more pretentious people from elsewhere. Temple has maybe 15 kids from LI.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 03:18 PM
You're not missing much. It's a dump and dbag city.

What city on Long Island are you referring to? There are so many of them. I lived in 3 and all 3 were pretty nice in general

JHG722
09-17-2008, 03:29 PM
What city on Long Island are you referring to? There are so many of them. I lived in 3 and all 3 were pretty nice in general

Any place particularly wealthy-- Merrick, Bellmore, Anything Great Neck, Jericho, Syosset, Dix Hills, etc.

Suffolk isn't anywhere near as bad as Nassau.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Any place particularly wealthy-- Merrick, Bellmore, Anything Great Neck, Jericho, Syosset, Dix Hills, etc.

Suffolk isn't anywhere near as bad as Nassau.

I lived in Suffolk County for many years. My dad lived in Bethpage (Nassau county) though and I thought that was nice as well. I like the suburbs in general though. I was born in Brooklyn.

I wish I could buy a plot of land in a rural area with no neighbors for miles. :)

JHG722
09-17-2008, 03:47 PM
I lived in Suffolk County for many years. My dad lived in Bethpage (Nassau county) though and I thought that was nice as well. I like the suburbs in general though. I was born in Brooklyn.

I wish I could buy a plot of land in a rural area with no neighbors for miles. :)

Yeah, my entire mom's side (including her) is from Brooklyn. Bethpage isn't bad. As I said, it's mainly Nassau that's totally douchey.

BroadwayJoe
09-17-2008, 06:08 PM
i think i've shared this story before, but here goes...

during the 2004 election, i was a soph at UF. i went to vote at the student union and was allowed to pass through and vote with mere mention of my name and my student id (not even my license). immediately after me in line were two black folks. as soon as they got up to the check desk, the same woman who let me go through with ease told the black people they needed to present 2 valid forms of id. a little shocked, i decided to wait around after voting and see how this trend played out with other voters. sure enough, every white college student or local passed through without hesitation... some even with EXPIRED forms of id! however, i witnessed five separate occasions when minorities were told they needed to present the two valid ids.

whether or not everyone had to bring 2 valid forms of id, that's some ****ed up **** right there!

DenButsu
09-17-2008, 08:34 PM
i think i've shared this story before, but here goes...

during the 2004 election, i was a soph at UF. i went to vote at the student union and was allowed to pass through and vote with mere mention of my name and my student id (not even my license). immediately after me in line were two black folks. as soon as they got up to the check desk, the same woman who let me go through with ease told the black people they needed to present 2 valid forms of id. a little shocked, i decided to wait around after voting and see how this trend played out with other voters. sure enough, every white college student or local passed through without hesitation... some even with EXPIRED forms of id! however, i witnessed five separate occasions when minorities were told they needed to present the two valid ids.

whether or not everyone had to bring 2 valid forms of id, that's some ****ed up **** right there!

And that, gcoll, is voter suppression. It's been rampant in Florida.

Sorry not to distinguish more clearly. The article in the top post fits the bill for intimidation and disenfranchisement, but not suppression, you're right about that. I included the term suppression because it's a tactic that is in fact used, and comes out of the same playbook. But I should have been more specific.

JHG722
09-17-2008, 08:46 PM
i think i've shared this story before, but here goes...

during the 2004 election, i was a soph at UF. i went to vote at the student union and was allowed to pass through and vote with mere mention of my name and my student id (not even my license). immediately after me in line were two black folks. as soon as they got up to the check desk, the same woman who let me go through with ease told the black people they needed to present 2 valid forms of id. a little shocked, i decided to wait around after voting and see how this trend played out with other voters. sure enough, every white college student or local passed through without hesitation... some even with EXPIRED forms of id! however, i witnessed five separate occasions when minorities were told they needed to present the two valid ids.

whether or not everyone had to bring 2 valid forms of id, that's some ****ed up **** right there!

Yet Alachua was 56% Kerry ;)

DenButsu
09-17-2008, 08:59 PM
Huge Voter Protection Effort To Be Launched Today
By Greg Sargent and Eric Kleefeld - September 17, 2008, 9:35AM

A group of civil rights lawyers is launching what it bills as the largest voter-protection effort in American history, planning to raise and spend millions of dollars to station hundreds of lawyers and thousands of volunteers at polling places across the country to help voters having trouble with the polls on Election Day.

The non-partisan group, called Election Protection -- to be announced at a press conference later this morning -- is being headed up by the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, a legal group established in 1963 in the heat of the Civil Rights Movement.

While the group ran a similar effort in 2004, the new effort will be on a far grander scale, reflecting a growing sense that private efforts to combat the bureaucratic ineptitude and premeditated shenanigans that continue to mar the voting process just haven't been up to the task.

"This will be the largest voter protection effort in the history of the country," project head Jonah Goldman, a longtime civil rights and election reform lawyer, insisted in an interview yesterday with Election Central. The backbone of their effort is a hotline, 866-OUR-VOTE, that voters can call to have their questions answered, and to report problems.

Goldman says that the Lawyers' Committee has already raised $2.5 million for the effort, coming from individual donors and foundations like the Open Society Institute and the Tide Foundation, along with pro bono work from law firms.

Election Protection 2008 vows to employ hundreds of lawyers and law students at call centers across the country on Election Day. "We've expanded our volume, our capacity from 2004, and we expect to be able to handle over a quarter of a million calls this time," says Goldman, who's also director of the National Campaign for Fair Elections.

On top of that, the group plans to enlist tens of thousands of volunteers to physically assist people get to their polling station.

Goldman argued that his group's work was necessitated by the shabby state of America's disorganized and understaffed voting infrastructure -- which, he said, continues to get worse and not better.

"We are in the same situation as in 2004, it's only slightly different," Goldman said. "And that was only slightly different from 2000."

Goldman added that the group would also be taking on outright efforts to disenfranchise voters. For instance, we've seen recent allegations that the Michigan Republican Party is trying to prevent people on foreclosure lists from voting -- as well as efforts in Virginia to prevent college students from registering where they go to school.

"I think that if past elections are any indication, we'll see more of this in various different forms," Goldman said. "We're already seeing it now."
talkingpointsmemo (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/lawyers_committee.php)

gcoll
09-18-2008, 11:09 AM
And that, gcoll, is voter suppression. It's been rampant in Florida.

I understand the concept DenButsu. (not sure if I'd take an anecdote from an anonymous forum poster as gospel....but I digress)

If it's been rampant in Florida, someone needs to take legal action.

I have never been pro-voter intimidation, and suppression. I've just been skeptical about how big of a problem it really is, and I've been more sympathetic to the cause of stricter voter ID laws and whatnot.

The main argument seems to be that a lot of voter ID laws are intended to suppress the vote. I've recognized this as a possibility, but also defended a lot of voter ID laws due to people's concerns over voter fraud. Which, manufactured issue or not, people care about to an extent.

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 11:40 AM
Yet Alachua was 56% Kerry ;)

the majority of residents in alachua are college-aged kids who tend to vote liberally or moderately... the majority of poll workers in alachua, however, are bible-belt white folks who don't like anyone not named jebidiah and who doesn't belong to their church.

it's actually pretty split down the middle in terms of college support here. in this election, i've seen equal amounts of campaigning for mccain and obama (just as i saw for kerry and bush in '04). it's pretty cool how split this campus is when it comes to politics. makes for fun on-campus debating.

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 11:43 AM
The main argument seems to be that a lot of voter ID laws are intended to suppress the vote. I've recognized this as a possibility, but also defended a lot of voter ID laws due to people's concerns over voter fraud. Which, manufactured issue or not, people care about to an extent.

i agree that voter ID laws should be in effect to secure the integrity of a voter's decision... but when poll workers enact these rules on a few (who happen to all look a shade or two darker than me) and let me go through with ease, there's something fishy abound.

JHG722
09-18-2008, 11:49 AM
the majority of residents in alachua are college-aged kids who tend to vote liberally or moderately... the majority of poll workers in alachua, however, are bible-belt white folks who don't like anyone not named jebidiah and who doesn't belong to their church.

it's actually pretty split down the middle in terms of college support here. in this election, i've seen equal amounts of campaigning for mccain and obama (just as i saw for kerry and bush in '04). it's pretty cool how split this campus is when it comes to politics. makes for fun on-campus debating.

I wish Temple was not so Liberal :/

DenButsu
09-18-2008, 12:03 PM
The main argument seems to be that a lot of voter ID laws are intended to suppress the vote. I've recognized this as a possibility, but also defended a lot of voter ID laws due to people's concerns over voter fraud. Which, manufactured issue or not, people care about to an extent.

Much of the devil is in the details, too. Legislation passed and lawsuits filed, intentionally timed so late in the game that properly educating the public as to the proper requirements is impossible. Measures passed with no corresponding budgetary safeguards for making sure the public will be properly informed. Failure to account for high risk groups such as the elderly, the poor and non-native speakers of English.

It's not that the ideal concept of having to prove that you are who you are when you vote is inherently flawed. It's that they oversimplify and politicize very logistically complex situations which have the real world impact of discouraging/preventing/intimidating voters from following through on their attempts to vote by saying, for example, "If you're not for this particular voter ID law, then you support voter fraud". And those claims are, nearly across the board, false, and nothing more than political cover for the real agenda of suppressing voter turnout.

hoosiercubsfan
09-18-2008, 12:33 PM
i agree that voter ID laws should be in effect to secure the integrity of a voter's decision... but when poll workers enact these rules on a few (who happen to all look a shade or two darker than me) and let me go through with ease, there's something fishy abound.

Well coming from a state who just had their voter ID law held up in the SCOTUS. I have had to show my ID in the past 3 or so elections honestly don't remember how many. And I am as lilly white as they come so I don't buy that they are only asking those with more skin pigment. If they are then they should be prosecuted end of story.

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Well coming from a state who just had their voter ID law held up in the SCOTUS. I have had to show my ID in the past 3 or so elections honestly don't remember how many. And I am as lilly white as they come so I don't buy that they are only asking those with more skin pigment. If they are then they should be prosecuted end of story.

you can buy or not buy whatever you want, however we live in completely different states, so i'm sure the there's some disparity in what you experienced and what i did... but most of all, i cannot deny what i saw with my own eyes. when i said something to one of the poll workers, they threatened to call security on me for impeding an election and making "false" claims of racism.

you may not want to believe it to validate your thoughts, but it's kinda hard to disagree with an hour of eyewitness account of poll workers giving blacks a hard time while letting whites go by with ease... regardless of whether or not they had two valid forms of ID with them.

gcoll
09-18-2008, 01:19 PM
i agree that voter ID laws should be in effect to secure the integrity of a voter's decision... but when poll workers enact these rules on a few (who happen to all look a shade or two darker than me) and let me go through with ease, there's something fishy abound.

Well. Let's think about your story for a second.

You claim that individual poll workers were stopping minorities, but not whites...correct? Only asking for valid identification from the minorities?

Now. What would "something fishy" in this case be? What are the possible reasons for this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming your story true.

So. What happened? Were these people instructed by someone to do this? If so, by who? What was the official policy? Were they being hard on minorities, or just selectively enforcing the law on only a few people? Why would they do that? Were they told by the person in charge that day "Look, there is a law where you have to show ID. But, white people don't really have to". If told that, how many poll workers would actually comply?


they threatened to call security on me for impeding an election and making "false" claims of racism.

Who is "they"? was it one guy, or a whole bunch? Were the people who threatened to call security the same people who were doing the racially motivated ID checking?

Did you alert any authorities to this situation?

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Well. Let's think about your story for a second.

You claim that individual poll workers were stopping minorities, but not whites...correct? Only asking for valid identification from the minorities?

Now. What would "something fishy" in this case be? What are the possible reasons for this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming your story true.

So. What happened? Were these people instructed by someone to do this? If so, by who? What was the official policy? Were they being hard on minorities, or just selectively enforcing the law on only a few people? Why would they do that? Were they told by the person in charge that day "Look, there is a law where you have to show ID. But, white people don't really have to". If told that, how many poll workers would actually comply?



Who is "they"? was it one guy, or a whole bunch? Were the people who threatened to call security the same people who were doing the racially motivated ID checking?

Did you alert any authorities to this situation?

all valid questions...

i cannot answer whether the poll workers (there were three of them that acted in such a manner; five poll workers in total) did this on their own accord or were told by a higher-up. the official policy was to show 2 forms of valid ID, however the only people i witnessed being held to this rule were minorities. not a SINGLE white person in the hour i was there was asked to show multiple forms of valid ID. i wish i knew why they would do that, but again i cannot answer on behalf of someone else's motives. nevertheless, those actions compared to how they dealt with me was what i would deem "fishy."

i was asked to leave by the poller at my "last name" line, the same person who let me go through with one expired student ID card then harassed the black couple behind me for 2 forms of up-to-date ID. i later sent an email to the student body prez and university prez... both went unanswered. in retrospect, i should've been more proactive about it, but let it slide after sending the emails. if that happens again this year (i recently moved back to g'ville), i will be certain to act more diligently.

gcoll
09-18-2008, 01:33 PM
i cannot answer whether the poll workers (there were three of them that acted in such a manner; five poll workers in total) did this on their own accord or were told by a higher-up.

If it was at a university, or anywhere for that matter, I find it hard to believe that this would be official policy, or done by a higher up.

There is always the possibility that the person in charge of that station was/is a moron. But I still don't get why a poll worker would listen to him.

Think of it this way. You're a volunteer at a polling place. The person in charge tells you "this is the law.....but if you let white people slide on it, it's no big deal"....would you listen? Or would you raise your hand and say "what?"


i later sent an email to the student body prez and university prez... both went unanswered.

That's hard to believe. I figure you'd at least get a standard "we work to ensure the integrity of the polling place...and make sure that our volunteers blah blah" or whatever it is. At least give you some contact information to the people who were running the polling place.


if that happens again this year (i recently moved back to g'ville), i will be certain to act more diligently.
Just bring a camera. Cell phone camera or something. if you see it, film it.

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 01:40 PM
If it was at a university, or anywhere for that matter, I find it hard to believe that this would be official policy, or done by a higher up.

There is always the possibility that the person in charge of that station was/is a moron. But I still don't get why a poll worker would listen to him.

Think of it this way. You're a volunteer at a polling place. The person in charge tells you "this is the law.....but if you let white people slide on it, it's no big deal"....would you listen? Or would you raise your hand and say "what?"


That's hard to believe. I figure you'd at least get a standard "we work to ensure the integrity of the polling place...and make sure that our volunteers blah blah" or whatever it is. At least give you some contact information to the people who were running the polling place.


Just bring a camera. Cell phone camera or something. if you see it, film it.

1. yeah, i have no doubt that there's a very real possibility that some spiteful schmuck working the desk that day could've acted on their own discriminatory feelings. i just wanted to share a terrible instance i had encountered.

2. that's what i was thinking! it's ****ing UF! we're like the 3rd largest university in the country... you'd think that SOMEONE would respond to claims of racism in the polling booths!

3. i'm prepping for it already. my new phone has a much longer video camera recording ability than my previous one (i think it can tape up to a few minutes, whereas my other phone could tape up to 30 seconds or so).

gcoll
09-18-2008, 03:49 PM
If I get a job at one of those polling places, I'm bringing a color palette with a bunch of different shades.

When the voter comes up, I'll hold it up to his skin.....mark down where he is, and judge accordingly how many forms of ID he needs to give me.

"Congrats, you're between shade 2 and 3, welcome in. Show me a picture of yourself of any kind"

"Hold on a minute. You're a little too close to 7 for my liking. Please give me your license, voter ID, library card, blockbuster card, and DNA sample please"

Because if I vote once. I get one vote. If I vote once, and suppress around half a dozen other votes.......I get more votes, and more impact on the election.

As a note. Obviously this is done in jest.

QuietWyatt
09-18-2008, 03:56 PM
If I get a job at one of those polling places, I'm bringing a color palette with a bunch of different shades.

When the voter comes up, I'll hold it up to his skin.....mark down where he is, and judge accordingly how many forms of ID he needs to give me.

"Congrats, you're between shade 2 and 3, welcome in. Show me a picture of yourself of any kind"

"Hold on a minute. You're a little too close to 7 for my liking. Please give me your license, voter ID, library card, blockbuster card, and DNA sample please"

Because if I vote once. I get one vote. If I vote once, and suppress around half a dozen other votes.......I get more votes, and more impact on the election.

As a note. Obviously this is done in jest.

If only Republicans can make that legal...:D

JHG722
09-18-2008, 05:27 PM
2. that's what i was thinking! it's ****ing UF! we're like the 3rd largest university in the country

UF is 6th for undergrad.

BroadwayJoe
09-18-2008, 10:42 PM
UF is 6th for undergrad.

**** you and your statistics, guy!

JHG722
09-18-2008, 10:44 PM
**** you and your statistics, guy!

:cry::cry::cry:

Chomp chomp :cool:

ari1013
09-18-2008, 11:16 PM
**** you and your statistics, guy!
I'm not your guy, buddy!
I'm not your buddy, friend!
I'm not your friend, guy!

:)

DenButsu
09-18-2008, 11:31 PM
Gotta love Buddy Guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUx-A5AbO8g). :nod:

BroadwayJoe
09-19-2008, 09:10 AM
:cry::cry::cry:

Chomp chomp :cool:

chomp chomp indeed!


I'm not your guy, buddy!
I'm not your buddy, friend!
I'm not your friend, guy!

:)

we want some of that internet monehhhhhhhhhhh, guy!


Gotta love Buddy Guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUx-A5AbO8g). :nod:

:up:



and now back to your regularly scheduled election thread...

SmthBluCitrus
09-22-2008, 05:45 PM
I wasn't sure which thread to put this in ... but I figured some of the themes from the article best fit in here.


Republican Mailing Leaves Florida Voters Confused
by Pam Fessler npr

A new mailing from the Republican National Committee and the McCain campaign to Florida voters has Democrats saying they're the victim of dirty tricks. They say that at the very least, the mailing is meant to confuse voters in this battleground state. Republicans say Democrats are making much ado abut nothing.

Lifelong Democrat Marilyn DiMauro of Naples was surprised to get a letter recently from Republican presidential contender John McCain.

"I thought, well that's strange, because I'm a Democrat. And when I opened the envelope, there was a card that said I was listed as a Republican with my registration number. So I immediately got my Democratic card, and the registration number was not the same," she says.

She thought the mailing — labeled "Party Affiliation Voter Registration Card" — was a little fishy — especially when she found out two of her friends who are Democrats had received the same thing but a Republican friend had not.

"So I just felt that there was some diabolical reason for doing this mailing," she says. "Why would you spend the money?"

That's what Jim Reynolds, another lifelong Democrat in Naples, wants to know. He happens to be a former U.S. attorney from Iowa. And he has filed a mail-fraud complaint with the postal service. Reynolds thinks Republicans are trying to confuse Democratic voters into thinking there's a problem with their registrations.

"They're just doing everything to try to suppress a certain segment that they feel are not going to be favorable to them," he says.

And indeed, Florida election officials have reported dozens of worried calls from voters. A copy of the mailing obtained by NPR shows that it includes an official-looking card, listing the recipient's name, address, congressional district, party affiliation and something called a voter ID number. In an attached letter, McCain asks recipients to update the enclosed card — and to contribute to his campaign.

npr (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94818483)

ari1013
09-22-2008, 11:21 PM
there are also the reports that the McCain campaign has sent out voter registration forms to people with the wrong precinct address filled in -- so people think they've registered, but really most likely won't be able to vote.

DenButsu
10-03-2008, 06:12 AM
Vote-scam fliers target black neighborhoods

By CATHERINE LUCEY
Philadelphia Daily News

luceyc@phillynews.com 215-854-4172
With just weeks to go before the presidential election, voter intimidation has reared its ugly head.

An anonymous flier circulating in African-American neighborhoods in North and West Philadelphia states that voters who are facing outstanding arrest warrants or who have unpaid traffic tickets may be arrested at the polls on Election Day.

Deputy Mayor for Public Safety Everett Gillison, who learned of the flier last week, said that the message is completely false.

"The only thing that police officers are going to do that we'll be encouraging that day is that they'll be exercising their own individual right to vote," Gillison said.

He plans to put up statements on the city and police Web sites to let citizens know that the handouts are false. He said that he also will record a public-service announcement for broadcast.

Gillison referred the matter to the U.S. Attorney's Office and the district attorney.

"We are not going to stand for any intimidation of voters," Gillison said. "Not in this city."

He said that he did not know who was behind the fliers, which appear to be targeted at supporters of Democratic candidate Barack Obama.

But telling people to beware of voting if they have outstanding warrants is an old trick. In Maryland's 2002 gubernatorial election, anonymous fliers in African-American communities warned people to pay parking tickets and resolve outstanding warrants before heading to the polls.

"It seems to be clearly aimed at lower-income voters that might have had some problems in the past and clearly aimed at discouraging people from voting," said Zack Stalberg, who heads the political-watchdog group Committee of Seventy.

Stalberg said that he feared that there could be more fliers to come.

"I'm a little surprised it appeared this far before Election Day," he said. "It's another indication of how dirty this election might become."

Local NAACP President Jerry Mondesire said that he was aware of the flier and would be watching for other intimidation efforts, but would wait until closer to Election Day to reach out to the public.

"We probably will do something closer to the election," he said. "People tend not to pay attention until two weeks out."

Mondesire said that he didn't know who was circulating the fliers, but added, "I do know one thing for sure: They're not Democrats."philly.com (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20081002_Vote-scam_fliers_target_black_neighborhoods.html)

KingJamsI
10-03-2008, 01:10 PM
I understand the concept DenButsu. (not sure if I'd take an anecdote from an anonymous forum poster as gospel....but I digress)

If it's been rampant in Florida, someone needs to take legal action.

I have never been pro-voter intimidation, and suppression. I've just been skeptical about how big of a problem it really is, and I've been more sympathetic to the cause of stricter voter ID laws and whatnot.

The main argument seems to be that a lot of voter ID laws are intended to suppress the vote. I've recognized this as a possibility, but also defended a lot of voter ID laws due to people's concerns over voter fraud. Which, manufactured issue or not, people care about to an extent.

I agree with you about ID, I think you should have to show one, but if you haven't been on the ground during these types of things then don't talk about them like you know. I have seen so much deplorable behavior in inner city areas geared towards keeping Blacks and Latins from voting, and it simply doesn't happen in small town white America. No one is trying to suppress those votes. I have seen fliers saying "If it rains, vote tomorrow" or "if its too crowded, we will extend the deadline to tomorrow." Unless your going to discuss the database scandal of '00, the arc-conservative Diebold, and their refusal to include paper trails on their machines. Unless your going to talk about bogus GOP lawsuits and voter roll tampering, leave it alone. Democrats have been getting the short end of the stick on this issue BY FAR, for a simple reason--high voter turnout favors Democrats, and Democratic voters are commonly centralized, while GOP voters are commonly spread out. It's something I have researched thoroughly and I can give you more information if you desire.

KingJamsI
10-03-2008, 01:14 PM
I wish Temple was not so Liberal :/

stop whining about it. Enroll at Bob Jones U, maybe you'll feel comfortable there. I hear they ban interracial dating ;). (Which I always was curious about... I mean what races are they not letting date? English and Scottish or something like that?)

gcoll
10-03-2008, 01:35 PM
I agree with you about ID, I think you should have to show one, but if you haven't been on the ground during these types of things then don't talk about them like you know
I am on the ground. Just on the other side. I do my best to suppress the black vote.


and it simply doesn't happen in small town white America.
Which is totally where I live.

KingJamsI
10-03-2008, 06:36 PM
Way to go Sarah Palin on my comments, make a lame joke and put words in my mouth. I have no idea where your from, my point was simply that in predominantly Republican voting blocs there is not the same time of foul play that there is in the Democratic ones. And by turning a shoulder to these practices you are in fact helping to suppress the votes of minorities. If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem, right?

gcoll
10-04-2008, 02:07 AM
there are also the reports that the McCain campaign has sent out voter registration forms to people with the wrong precinct address filled in -- so people think they've registered, but really most likely won't be able to vote.

Diabolical!!

Way to go Sarah Palin on my comments, make a lame joke and put words in my mouth
Lame? Ok..I'll grant you that.

And by turning a shoulder to these practices you are in fact helping to suppress the votes of minorities.
****. I had no idea.

I'm still not 100% clear on how these votes are being suppressed. Is having to register to vote an act of suppression?

ink
10-04-2008, 02:15 AM
I'm still not 100% clear on how these votes are being suppressed. Is having to register to vote an act of suppression?

It's about the ID that is needed. A disproportionate number of black voters lack the ID that is being required in some states -- "coincidentally" those states with the highest concentration of black voters.

gcoll
10-04-2008, 02:18 AM
It's about the ID that is needed. A disproportionate number of black voters lack the ID that is being required in some states -- "coincidentally" those states with the highest concentration of black voters.
And....how exactly am I supposed to solve this? Move to Alabama and start issuing IDs?

I recognize that this may be going on...but I have no sympathy for the people it happens to.

If it is designed to hurt voter turnout, I'd be against it on principle...but I don't see it as a huge issue. And yes, I realize the importance of voting and what our country is founded on and whatnot.....

ink
10-04-2008, 02:38 AM
I recognize that this may be going on...but I have no sympathy for the people it happens to.

If it is designed to hurt voter turnout, I'd be against it on principle.

That's exactly the point. The ID requirements have intentionally been made more stringent in these areas BECAUSE they know that black voters DO NOT have the ID. It means they won't be able to vote. That's exactly what voter disenfranchisement is.

Doc Fluty
10-04-2008, 05:06 AM
That's exactly the point. The ID requirements have intentionally been made more stringent in these areas BECAUSE they know that black voters DO NOT have the ID. It means they won't be able to vote. That's exactly what voter disenfranchisement is.

are you supposed to have a ID anyway?

isnt it against the law not to have an id?

and i dont see a problem with making sure people are who they say they are to vote.

and also make sure people arent voting 2-3-4-5 times

and if you say that these people lack the necessary skills to get an id (such as asking for it and providing a birth cert and such) then i dont think its a bad idea to leave them out of the election since they are clearly not a part of society anyway.. as if they dont have an id they shouldnt be allowed to work technically.

its not like i can walk into a target with no id and say gimmie a job

ink
10-04-2008, 10:36 AM
are you supposed to have a ID anyway?

isnt it against the law not to have an id?

and i dont see a problem with making sure people are who they say they are to vote.

and also make sure people arent voting 2-3-4-5 times

and if you say that these people lack the necessary skills to get an id (such as asking for it and providing a birth cert and such) then i dont think its a bad idea to leave them out of the election since they are clearly not a part of society anyway.. as if they dont have an id they shouldnt be allowed to work technically.

its not like i can walk into a target with no id and say gimmie a job

"Clearly not a part of society anyway"???? :rolleyes:

It's really enouraging to see how quickly and easily a Republican rationalizes the stripping of a fundamental right. That's exactly why your party does these types of things. Because apparently their supporters don't mind.

Doc Fluty
10-04-2008, 01:33 PM
i did not say strip them from their rights.. i said if they choose to not get an id and follow the law then i dont mind not letting letting them vote. if they follow the rules like everyone else.. then by all means they can and should vote.

voter fraud, authenticity and even security could be an issue by just letting just anyone walk up with no id and say "hey i wanna vote"

whats to stop multiple democrats from loading up a school buss's full of homeless people and driving them to every poll in the county?

ink
10-04-2008, 01:53 PM
i did not say strip them from their rights.. i said if they choose to not get an id and follow the law then i dont mind not letting letting them vote. if they follow the rules like everyone else.. then by all means they can and should vote.

voter fraud, authenticity and even security could be an issue by just letting just anyone walk up with no id and say "hey i wanna vote"

whats to stop multiple democrats from loading up a school buss's full of homeless people and driving them to every poll in the county?

Nobody said people should be allowed to vote without ID.

SmthBluCitrus
10-04-2008, 02:51 PM
whats to stop multiple republicans from using recently deceased identities to vote? or traveling to multiple polling districts utilizing same-day registration

fixed

Every single one of your posts implies that Democrats are basically evil, or pursuant of wrong-doing.

Doc Fluty
10-04-2008, 04:09 PM
lol.. not even close.

i dont think democrats are evil. i think when i turn on cnn and see a mother putting her month old baby in the microwave is evil. I think a guy cutting of a guys head on a greyhound bus and then start eating him is evil. i think what saddam was doing to people was evil..

i think a majority of democrats just want to help the less fortunate.. which is admirable.

but i think most democratic politicians just use helping the poor to get themselves power and are hypocrites. I see them preach about how the republicans only care about corporations and want to tax the rich less...

but i dont see one democratic politician donating half of their hundreds of thousands of dollar salary to fund a orphanage, build a homeless shelter or even take a homeless guy and out and put em in a hotel for a week

Biden makes over $320,000 and i don't see him saying..."who needs all this money? im only going to keep $70,000 and donate the rest to the boys and girls club every year for the rest of my career...thats just fair where i come from"

they preach about helping the poor but in the end they cripple them. the welfare system is not what it was made out to be... putting people in homes they cant afford is why we are in this mess now...

so for the record.. i think some democratic citizens are the most generous, loving and compassionate people in the world. But i think multimillionaire politicians standing on a stage pretending to be doing all they can and no body cares for the poor but them is manipulative, hypocritical, unethical and infuriating.

i4c
10-04-2008, 09:27 PM
lol.. not even close.

i dont think democrats are evil. i think when i turn on cnn and see a mother putting her month old baby in the microwave is evil. I think a guy cutting of a guys head on a greyhound bus and then start eating him is evil. i think what saddam was doing to people was evil..

i think a majority of democrats just want to help the less fortunate.. which is admirable.

but i think most democratic politicians just use helping the poor to get themselves power and are hypocrites. I see them preach about how the republicans only care about corporations and want to tax the rich less...

but i dont see one democratic politician donating half of their hundreds of thousands of dollar salary to fund a orphanage, build a homeless shelter or even take a homeless guy and out and put em in a hotel for a week

Biden makes over $320,000 and i don't see him saying..."who needs all this money? im only going to keep $70,000 and donate the rest to the boys and girls club every year for the rest of my career...thats just fair where i come from"

they preach about helping the poor but in the end they cripple them. the welfare system is not what it was made out to be... putting people in homes they cant afford is why we are in this mess now...

so for the record.. i think some democratic citizens are the most generous, loving and compassionate people in the world. But i think multimillionaire politicians standing on a stage pretending to be doing all they can and no body cares for the poor but them is manipulative, hypocritical, unethical and infuriating.

LOL I'm sure you think Palin is really representative of the middle class too LMAO. get your learn on ---> Estimates Show Sarah Palin's Assets top $1 M (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1846372,00.html)

Doc Fluty
10-05-2008, 02:49 AM
umm Palins not out there preaching we need to tax rich people out of fairness either...

your post is irrelevant

DenButsu
10-05-2008, 06:12 AM
umm Palins not out there preaching we need to tax rich people out of fairness either...

your post is irrelevant

No, but she's lying about who she is. She's blatantly misrepresenting herself.

It's absolutely fair game to call out a political candidate for being the fraud who she is when she fraudulently represents herself. 100% fair game.

Doc Fluty
10-05-2008, 04:32 PM
palin was a pta mom then a mayor of a town of less than 10,000... im sure her life before she was elected governor just a few years ago let her understand what the middle class is going through a lot more than biden who has been a U.S. Senator for over 30 years and obama who went to harvard

her hubby tod apparently makes good money doing some salmon fishing.. i imagine that is pretty hard work and hes out there getting dirty every day. a far cry from obamas spouse who makes over $300,000 as an hospital executive who went to Princeton and got her J.D degree from harvard law

not saying being a senator or going to harvard is bad. just staying if were are talking about representing the middle class... i think palin is the most logical voice

DenButsu
10-05-2008, 09:17 PM
She might be the "most logical" choice in terms of some middle class people feeling like she's "one of us".

But all you need to do is take a look at the policies she and McCain are pushing for, which are most beneficial to the super rich, compared with the policies that Obama and Biden are pushing for, which are most beneficial to the middle class, to see quite clearly that she's not its best representative or the "most logical" choice if you're talking about who will best represent the middle class in terms of actually helping them and protecting their interests.

gcoll
10-06-2008, 02:29 AM
No, but she's lying about who she is. She's blatantly misrepresenting herself.
They all do that.


compared with the policies that Obama and Biden are pushing for, which are most beneficial to the middle class
Lower.

The middle class people that democrats back, are those that are in unions. Other than that...their policies are usually geared more towards the lower end.

And to make an overall point....there is something inherently hypocritical about a rich, ivy league educated yuppy...preaching to ME about caring more about the middle class. And if that person preaches about the rich doing their "fair share" and it turns out the candidate that loves the "super rich" gives more money in charity....he's a ****ing *** hole. That's all there is to it.

ari1013
10-06-2008, 09:42 AM
lol.. not even close.

i dont think democrats are evil. i think when i turn on cnn and see a mother putting her month old baby in the microwave is evil. I think a guy cutting of a guys head on a greyhound bus and then start eating him is evil. i think what saddam was doing to people was evil..

i think a majority of democrats just want to help the less fortunate.. which is admirable.

but i think most democratic politicians just use helping the poor to get themselves power and are hypocrites. I see them preach about how the republicans only care about corporations and want to tax the rich less...

but i dont see one democratic politician donating half of their hundreds of thousands of dollar salary to fund a orphanage, build a homeless shelter or even take a homeless guy and out and put em in a hotel for a week

Biden makes over $320,000 and i don't see him saying..."who needs all this money? im only going to keep $70,000 and donate the rest to the boys and girls club every year for the rest of my career...thats just fair where i come from"

they preach about helping the poor but in the end they cripple them. the welfare system is not what it was made out to be... putting people in homes they cant afford is why we are in this mess now...

so for the record.. i think some democratic citizens are the most generous, loving and compassionate people in the world. But i think multimillionaire politicians standing on a stage pretending to be doing all they can and no body cares for the poor but them is manipulative, hypocritical, unethical and infuriating.
Biden wouldn't be able to live on $70,000. The cost of living in Wilmington isn't that high, but bear in mind that he has to commute back and forth to DC everyday. The cost of eating out in DC two meals out of the day, plus a roundtrip train ride is going to be in the order of $100 per day. And then there's his family...

ari1013
10-06-2008, 09:45 AM
They all do that.


Lower.

The middle class people that democrats back, are those that are in unions. Other than that...their policies are usually geared more towards the lower end.

And to make an overall point....there is something inherently hypocritical about a rich, ivy league educated yuppy...preaching to ME about caring more about the middle class. And if that person preaches about the rich doing their "fair share" and it turns out the candidate that loves the "super rich" gives more money in charity....he's a ****ing *** hole. That's all there is to it.
Honestly now, you have to admit that McCain's likely doing it for tax reasons only. After all, he and his wife "forgot" to pay taxes on some of their property this past year.

ink
10-07-2008, 03:27 AM
Florida Law May Disenfranchise New Voters
Strict Rules Aimed At Preventing Fraud May Keep Recently Registered Voters From Casting Ballots
Comments 95LARGO, Fla., Oct. 6, 2008

It's Always Sunny In Florida?

Both Democrats and Republicans have inundated Florida with hundreds of thousands of new voter registration applications. But many worry those votes could be thrown out. Kelly Cobiella explains why. | Share/Embed

(CBS) It's crunch time for volunteers looking to register new voters. In Florida, Democrats and Republicans alike have registered more than 130,000 new voters in the last month alone, leaving election workers scrambling to get them all on the rolls by Election Day.

But as CBS News correspondent Kelly Cobiella reports, the state's stringent fraud prevention laws may keep some of those newly registered voters - and many others - from casting their ballots.

"This is just outrageous how many people are really into this election," says volunteer Aleisha Hodo.

The sheer volume of new voter registration applications, along with the state's so-called "no match, no vote law" has election observers worried that one mistyped number could disqualify a ballot.

"We have done the math and we have begun to look at how many people are not matched, not voting already, and it could be in the tens-of-thousands in the state of Florida," said Dierdre McNabb of The League of Women Voters.

For the first time, Florida law requires a voter's driver's license or social security number to match a state or federal database. It's done to prevent fraud. Several other swing states have similar laws, but none as strict as Florida's. Wisconsin dropped its own no match rule when a test run showed one in four voters would have been eliminated because of typos and other minor problems.

"Already we've seen that over 5,000 people, as of this last Monday, have had their voter registration applications rejected," says Tova Wang of Common Cause. "The county administrators admit that it's because of mistakes like typos and variations on people's names."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/06/eveningnews/main4505093.shtml

BroadwayJoe
10-07-2008, 09:09 AM
^this is my fear, as a florida resident. i;ve seen some shady **** over the 3 elections i've been a part of here and it wouldn't surprise if when push comes to shove, my vote is tossed aside on some ********.

PHX-SOXFAN
10-08-2008, 05:46 PM
Good to see the Obama campaign promoting the opposite of voter suppression:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433681,00.html

What a terrible thing to have everyone vote and provide the means for them to do so.:rolleyes:

SmthBluCitrus
10-09-2008, 11:04 PM
States’ Actions to Block Voters Appear Illegal
By IAN URBINA

Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering in ways that appear to violate federal law, according to a review of state records and Social Security data by The New York Times.

The actions do not seem to be coordinated by one party or the other, nor do they appear to be the result of election officials intentionally breaking rules, but are apparently the result of mistakes in the handling of the registrations and voter files as the states tried to comply with a 2002 federal law, intended to overhaul the way elections are run.

Still, because Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, according to state election officials, any heightened screening of new applications may affect their party’s supporters disproportionately. The screening or trimming of voter registration lists in the six states — Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina — could also result in problems at the polls on Election Day: people who have been removed from the rolls are likely to show up only to be challenged by political party officials or election workers, resulting in confusion, long lines and heated tempers.

New York Times (more) (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?scp=1&sq=States%27%20purges%20of%20voter%20rolls%20appea r%20illegal&st=cse)

Drucifer
10-10-2008, 01:06 AM
One of these years, they'll going to approve a national 'smart' ID card.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 01:54 AM
Good to see the Obama campaign promoting the opposite of voter suppression:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,433681,00.html

What a terrible thing to have everyone vote and provide the means for them to do so.:rolleyes:

Ok, I'm gonna find a bunch of homeless people and offer them a sandwich and a warm place to sleep for a night if they vote for McCain

This amounts to bribery, in case you're wondering. To say nothing about how despicable it is that they're allowed to register without proving they're a resident of the state. Who the hell is to say they're not busing in homeless from outside the state to help them win Ohio?

Oh right, I'm sorry, this is happy land where the Democrats can do no wrong.

PPS - Oh, and felons have lost their right to vote by law. Interesting that we seem to only give a **** about Republicans tampering with the vote. :rolleyes:

-----

Basically, both parties **** with votes as best they can. You're ****ing fooling yourself if you think that a party is innocent.

Doc Fluty
10-10-2008, 04:16 AM
More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County by a liberal activist group this week have turned out to be bogus, election officials said Thursday.

The group -- the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN -- already faces allegations of filing fraudulent voter registrations in Nevada and faces investigations in other states. the bipartisan Elections Board has stopped processing a stack of about 5,000 applications delivered just before the October 6 registration deadline after the first 2,100 turned out to be phony.

A subsidiary of the group was paid $800,000 by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's campaign to register voters for the 2008 primaries, and ACORN's political wing endorsed Obama back in February.

There has been no evidence of voter fraud yet, because voters have yet to go to the polls. But elections officials say they will be sending their information to prosecutors, who will determine whether any investigation will begin.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/09/acorn.fraud.claims/index.html

hmmm

DenButsu
10-10-2008, 04:32 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/09/acorn.fraud.claims/index.html

uh huh.. spin this

No need to spin it. If they did it they did it, and that sucks.

But of course the right will be spinning it to make it appear that Barack Obama personally sent out a directive himself instructing all his supporters to engage in voter fraud because, you know, he's a Muslim terrorist black community organizer who can't be trusted.

But in the end, that will just be one of the last straws that McCain desperately tries to grab at as his campaign sinks.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 10:53 AM
But of course the right will be spinning it to make it appear that Barack Obama personally sent out a directive himself instructing all his supporters to engage in voter fraud because, you know, he's a Muslim terrorist black community organizer who can't be trusted.


Kind like how people in here are spinning **** into "THOSE RASCALLY REPUBLICANS ARE AT IT AGAIN!" ?

PHX-SOXFAN
10-10-2008, 11:33 AM
Ok, I'm gonna find a bunch of homeless people and offer them a sandwich and a warm place to sleep for a night if they vote for McCain

This amounts to bribery, in case you're wondering. To say nothing about how despicable it is that they're allowed to register without proving they're a resident of the state. Who the hell is to say they're not busing in homeless from outside the state to help them win Ohio?

Oh right, I'm sorry, this is happy land where the Democrats can do no wrong.

PPS - Oh, and felons have lost their right to vote by law. Interesting that we seem to only give a **** about Republicans tampering with the vote. :rolleyes:

-----

Basically, both parties **** with votes as best they can. You're ****ing fooling yourself if you think that a party is innocent.

it doesn't say bribery or telling them who to vote for. it doesn't say they provided food or shelter. IT says they are providing transportation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you think you can round up enough homeless people to fill up your car to vote for McCain, I'd be shocked. Give it a try on election day though.:speechless: I know it really burns that the homeless don't support Mccain or that they can't utilize these methods that are within the law. hopefully the mccain campaign can send out false voting information fliers in black neighborhoods to make up for this.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-10-2008, 11:53 AM
Massive voter fraud going on in several states and it seems Accorn has a hand in a lot of it.


1 VOTER, 72 REGISTRATIONS
'ACORN PAID ME IN CASH & CIGS'

By JEANE MacINTOSH Post Correspondent

October 10, 2008

CLEVELAND - A man at the center of a voter-registration scandal told The Post yesterday he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times, in apparent violation of Ohio laws.

"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the left-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

"The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said.

Johnson used the same information on all of his registration cards, and officials say they usually catch and toss out duplicate registrations. But the practice sparks fear that some multiple registrants could provide different information and vote more than once by absentee ballot.

ACORN is under investigation in Ohio and at least eight other states - including Missouri, where the FBI said it's planning to look into potential voter fraud - for over-the-top efforts to get as many names as possible on the voter rolls regardless of whether a person is registered or eligible.

It's even under investigation in Bridgeport, Conn., for allegedly registering a 7-year-old girl to vote, according to the State Elections Enforcement Commission.

Meanwhile, a federal judge yesterday ordered Ohio's Secretary of State to verify the identity of newly registered voters by matching them with other government documents. The order was in response to a Republican lawsuit unrelated to the ACORN probe in Cuyahoga County, in which at least three people, including Johnson, have been subpoenaed.

Bribing citizens with gifts, property or anything of value is a fourth-degree felony in Ohio, punishable by up to 18 months in prison. And it's a fifth-degree felony - punishable by 12 months in jail - for a person to pay "compensation on a fee-per-registration" system when signing up someone to vote.

Johnson, who works at a cellphone kiosk in downtown Cleveland, said he was a sitting duck for the signature hunters, but was always happy to help them out in exchange for a smoke or a little scratch. He'd collected 10 to 20 cigarettes and anywhere from $10 to $15, he said.

The Cleveland voting probe, first reported by The Post yesterday, also focused on Lateala Goins, who said she put her name on multiple voter registrations. She guessed ACORN canvassers then put fake addresses on them. "You can tell them you're registered as many times as you want - they do not care," she said.

ACORN spokesman Kris Harsh said the group does not tolerate its workers paying people to sign the voter-registration cards.

ACORN's political wing has endorsed Barack Obama for president, but Ben LaBolt, a spokesman for the Obama campaign in Ohio, said ACORN has no role in its get-out-the-vote drive.

During the primary season, however, the Obama camp paid another group, Citizen Service Inc., $832,598 for various political services, according to Federal Elections Commission filings. That group and ACORN share the same board of directors.

In Wisconsin yesterday, John McCain blasted ACORN.

"No one should be corrupting the most precious right we have, that is the right to vote," he said.

It's a right Johnson will exercise. "Yeah, I've registered enough - I might as well vote."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm

SLY WILLIAMS
10-10-2008, 11:53 AM
Missouri officials suspect fake voter registration

By BILL DRAPER, Associated Press Writer Wed Oct 8, 9:45 PM ET

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Officials in Missouri, a hard-fought jewel in the presidential race, are sifting through possibly hundreds of questionable or duplicate voter-registration forms submitted by an advocacy group that has been accused of election fraud in other states.
ADVERTISEMENT

Charlene Davis, co-director of the election board in Jackson County, where Kansas City is, said the fraudulent registration forms came from the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN. She said they were bogging down work Wednesday, the final day Missourians could register to vote.

"I don't even know the entire scope of it because registrations are coming in so heavy," Davis said. "We have identified about 100 duplicates, and probably 280 addresses that don't exist, people who have driver's license numbers that won't verify or Social Security numbers that won't verify. Some have no address at all."

The nonpartisan group works to recruit low-income voters, who tend to lean Democratic. Most polls show Republican presidential candidate John McCain with an edge in bellwether Missouri, but Democrat Barack Obama continues to put up a strong fight.

Jess Ordower, Midwest director of ACORN, said his group hasn't done any registrations in Kansas City since late August. He said he was told three weeks ago by election officials that there were only about 135 questionable cards — 85 of them duplicates.

"They keep telling different people different things," he said. "They gave us a list of 130, then told someone else it was 1,000."

FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton said the agency has been in contact with elections officials about potential voter fraud and plans to investigate.

"It's a matter we take very seriously," Patton said. "It is against the law to register someone to vote who does not fall within the parameters to vote, or to put someone on there falsely."

On Tuesday, authorities in Nevada seized records from ACORN after finding fraudulent registration forms that included the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys.

In April, eight ACORN workers in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting false registration cards for the 2006 election. U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said they submitted cards with false addresses and names, and forged signatures.

Ordower said Wednesday that ACORN registered about 53,500 people in Missouri this year. He believes his group is being targeted because some politicians don't want that many low-income people having a voice.

"It's par for the course," he said. "When you're doing more registrations than anyone else in the country, some don't want low-income people being empowered to vote. There are pretty targeted attacks on us, but we're proud to be out there doing the patriotic thing getting people registered to vote."

Republicans are among ACORN's loudest critics. At a campaign stop in Bethlehem, Pa., supporters of John McCain interrupted his remarks Wednesday by shouting, "No more ACORN."

Debbie Mesloh, spokeswoman for the Obama campaign in Missouri, said in an e-mailed statement that the campaign supported any investigation of possible fraud.

According to its national Web site, the group has registered 1.3 million people nationwide for the Nov. 4 election. It also has encountered complaints of fraud stemming from registration efforts in Wisconsin, New Mexico, Nevada and battleground states like Michigan, Ohio and North Carolina, where new voter registrations have favored Democrats nearly 4 to 1 since the beginning of this year.

Missouri offers 11 electoral votes; the presidential candidates need at least 270 to win the election.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_fraud

DenButsu
10-10-2008, 12:45 PM
Kind like how people in here are spinning **** into "THOSE RASCALLY REPUBLICANS ARE AT IT AGAIN!" ?

Well, there is plenty of good reason to be suspicious and watchful of continued voter suppression efforts, after the many deliberate, organized attempts to keep legitimate voters from exercising their rights in 2000 and 2004. And, in fact, voter suppression activities have been engaged in this cycle.

If it's a fact that ACORN has violated the law, then they should have to own up to that and be held accountable. But that does not mean it's not a fact that the right has tried (and is currently trying) to engage in illegal voter suppression efforts as well, and should likewise be held accountable for those.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 12:52 PM
it doesn't say bribery or telling them who to vote for. it doesn't say they provided food or shelter. IT says they are providing transportation. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If you think you can round up enough homeless people to fill up your car to vote for McCain, I'd be shocked. Give it a try on election day though.:speechless: I know it really burns that the homeless don't support Mccain or that they can't utilize these methods that are within the law. hopefully the mccain campaign can send out false voting information fliers in black neighborhoods to make up for this.

Heh, it's pretty funny how in a lot of your posts you show an extreme bias towards one side. You basically assume that the EVIL REPUBLICANS are tampering with the vote, AND you see nothing wrong with allowing people to be bused in from who knows where to vote without an ID? Hilarious.

They are busing people in from all over the state who are otherwise ignored by everyone. It doesn't matter to them who wins this election because they figure they'll be ignored no matter what. Someone says, "hey, come with me, we'll give you a warm place to be for a few hours and you can vote in the process! It will take a few hours too, so lunch will be provided!"

Yeah, that's not bribery at all. :rolleyes:

Again, these people are being allowed to vote without showing any form of ID. Who the hell knows where they are coming from? If it was McCain's camp doing this, you'd be flipping the **** out talking about who's to say they're not being bussed all over the country and just giving false names everywhere. Who can prove it? They don't need an ID to prove who they are or where they are from!

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 12:55 PM
If it's a fact that ACORN has violated the law, then they should have to own up to that and be held accountable. But that does not mean it's not a fact that the right has tried (and is currently trying) to engage in illegal voter suppression efforts as well, and should likewise be held accountable for those.

Yes, and the left is not. :rolleyes: I agree there is reason to be suspicious, but I find it outright deplorable that people seem to believe that only one side is guilty of this kind of ****. It's ****ing hilarious that people are stupid enough to buy into the myth that their party is the party of light, never engaging in illegal electoral tactics.

Back before I was born, both my parents worked as one of those people that checked to be sure that the machines were zeroed correctly before they came in. That is, making sure the machines correctly read 0 votes for each candidate. Every ****ing election all the machines had several hundred votes already for the democratic candidate. They reported it to whomever they were supposed to, but of course it disappears into the noise. Of course, people will refuse to believe this, because it goes against their fairy tale idea that the Democrats don't pull ******** too.

Let's get a group of untracable people together and bus them all over the ****ing place voting at every stop! Who the **** cares, because they can't be traced because they don't have to have any form of ID! Wheee!

DenButsu
10-10-2008, 01:16 PM
YF4L, I'd never pretend that there hasn't been dirty **** the Dems have gotten into as well.

But let's be real here. In the past two presidential elections specifically, the right has pulled a lot more devious and illegal bull**** in terms of preventing people from exercising their right to vote than the left has in perpetuating any type of voter fraud. It's not even close.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 01:24 PM
YF4L, I'd never pretend that there hasn't been dirty **** the Dems have gotten into as well.

But let's be real here. In the past two presidential elections specifically, the right has pulled a lot more devious and illegal bull**** in terms of preventing people from exercising their right to vote than the left has in perpetuating any type of voter fraud. It's not even close.

That's cool Den, there's a lot of sentiment just around the forums that people have the opinion that the Dems haven't. :)

I'd argue that the difference lies in that the Republicans suck at hiding their illegal ********. Of course, this is merely hearsay, so I can't do much more than say there were allegations of dead voters, and people without addresses voting last two elections also. The democrats do a lot more to make their ****** tactics seem legal, which is politically brilliant in my mind.

I'll certainly hand to you that the 2000 election was shady on all fronts. There was no need to for Harris to pull that stunt. There was no point in doing that, because I personally feel a true recount would have still had Bush winning the state. Say all you like about each recount closing the gap, the incriments were slowing down.

As a side note to 2000, I think that there is a lot to be said though that thousands of military votes were just "lost" on their way overseas that same election.

It's kinda sad that we don't trust either one of them. :(

DenButsu
10-10-2008, 01:26 PM
Until 2008, I never heard a Republican accuse the Democrats of political brilliance.

-----

meaning - the Dems have never had our **** together proper.

gcoll
10-10-2008, 01:27 PM
Yeah...when I saw a couple reports yesterday I was gonna start a thread entitled, "Voter fraud efforts have officially begun" or something like that...but I decided not to.

Apparently the Dallas Cowboys (Tony Romo....Terrell Owens...etc) were registered to vote in Missouri.

And the busing homeless people thing....do you view it as a) an effort to let people express their right to vote....or b) an effort to stuff the ballots.

As a side note....living where I do now...I've really developed a dislike for the homeless.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Until 2008, I never heard a Republican accuse the Democrats of political brilliance.

-----

meaning - the Dems have never had our **** together proper.

I did that a long time ago. :)

I said that about Clinton all 8 years of his presidency. Say what you want about how much you agree/disagree with his politics, he got his **** together. He was a political mastermind. I loved how every time there was a criticism of him, he held a press conference and *****ed about it. It was awesome. A waste of time? Not really. He was able to tell people every day why he was doing things, and answered critics immediately. You may not have agreed with why or what, but at least you had a reason.

I wish the goddamned Republicans would be doing that, instead of this "just accept it, jerks" attitude that's been going on. This Bush has the same fault his father did. He cannot comprehend why anyone would disagree with him. He just assumes that people won't listen to people who do. Of course, then people get ultra paranoid and listen to critics when no response is given out.

You guys did have your **** together proper, the fact is this country is pretty cyclic in how it feels towards it's politicians.

YanksFan4Life
10-10-2008, 01:38 PM
Yeah...when I saw a couple reports yesterday I was gonna start a thread entitled, "Voter fraud efforts have officially begun" or something like that...but I decided not to.

Apparently the Dallas Cowboys (Tony Romo....Terrell Owens...etc) were registered to vote in Missouri.

And the busing homeless people thing....do you view it as a) an effort to let people express their right to vote....or b) an effort to stuff the ballots.

As a side note....living where I do now...I've really developed a dislike for the homeless.

Again, you have to have awe for the brilliance of the move.

It's stuffing the ballot box, but doing it in a way that they can say "THOSE EVIL REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO STOP PEOPLE FROM VOTING!"when anyone says that. Look earlier in this thread, people are buying it, saying that it's terrible that people are complaining about people getting to vote.

In fact, it's deplorable that these people are voting without any record of who they are in hand. It is terrible because there is no way to determine who they are or where they are from. There is nothing to stop them from voting absentee in every state possible if no one is checking to see who these people are and where they are from. It is textbook stuffing the ballot box.

But now I'm an evil person because I'm against the homeless voting, or something. :rolleyes:

gcoll
10-10-2008, 01:49 PM
Again, you have to have awe for the brilliance of the move.

It's stuffing the ballot box, but doing it in a way that they can say "THOSE EVIL REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO STOP PEOPLE FROM VOTING!"when anyone says that. Look earlier in this thread, people are buying it, saying that it's terrible that people are complaining about people getting to vote.

In fact, it's deplorable that these people are voting without any record of who they are in hand. It is terrible because there is no way to determine who they are or where they are from. There is nothing to stop them from voting absentee in every state possible if no one is checking to see who these people are and where they are from. It is textbook stuffing the ballot box.

But now I'm an evil person because I'm against the homeless voting, or something. :rolleyes:

Some of the laws may in fact be an attempt to make it tougher for certain demographics to vote....but yeah. People were/are getting carried away.

The same way they're currently getting carried away with the Palin rallies....or earlier when they were clamoring that Mccain was running the sleaziest campaign in history.

There's a lot of hyperbole directed at the Mccain campaign in this particular forum.

Every attack by Mccain will be viewed as "way over the line. Despicable"...and an attack from Obama is "hey. The guy is just fighting back"

This is a similar thing. People fear voter fraud. It's a relevant issue. People pull bull **** on election day. I think Kennedy had dead people voting for him in Chicago or something....and running around in a bus, and grabbing every homeless guy you find and saying "hey. You want to vote for Obama? He'll make your life better...come on. We'll give you $5 if you come with us".......is not preserving the spirit of democracy.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-13-2008, 01:13 PM
Many convicted felons remain on voter rolls, according to Sun Sentinel investigation
Thousands who should be ineligible are registered to vote

Reported by Peter Franceschina, Sally Kestin, John Maines, Megan O'Matz and Dana Williams Written by Sally Kestin
October 12, 2008

More than 30,000 Florida felons who by law should have been stripped of their right to vote in this presidential battleground state, a Sun Sentinel investigation has found.

Many are faithful voters, with at least 4,900 turning out in past elections.

Another 5,600 are not likely to vote Nov. 4 — they're still in prison.

Of the felons who registered with a party, Democrats outnumber Republicans more than two to one.


Florida's elections chief, Secretary of State Kurt Browning, acknowledged his staff has failed to remove thousands of ineligible felons because of a shortage of workers and a crush of new registrations in this critical swing state.

Browning said he was not surprised by the newspaper's findings. "I'm kind of shocked that the number is as low as it is," he said.

Asked how many ineligible felons may be on Florida's rolls, Browning said, "We don't know."

The Division of Elections has a backlog of more than 108,000 possible felons who have registered to vote since January 2006 that it hasn't had the time or staff to verify. Browning estimated that about 10 percent, once checked, would be ineligible.

"This is part of a big mess," said Jeff Manza, professor of sociology at New York University and author of a book on felon voting. "It's almost certain there will be challenges if the election is close enough that things hinge on this. Both parties are armed to the teeth with legal talent in all the battleground states."

Florida's felon ban originated before the Civil War, and today the state remains one of 10 that restrict some felons from voting even after they've served their time. The law requires state and county elections officials to remove felons from voter rolls after conviction and add them only when they've won clemency to restore their voting rights.

In 2007, the state eased the restrictions by granting automatic clemency to most nonviolent offenders who have completed their sentences. Others, including people convicted of federal offenses, multiple felonies or crimes such as drug trafficking, murder and sex charges, must still apply for clemency and have their cases reviewed.

The felons the Sun Sentinel identified never received clemency, but their names remain on Florida's voter rolls. Some are well-known: ex-Broward Sheriff Ken Jenne and ex-Palm Beach County Commissioner Tony Masilotti, for instance, both convicted last year of public corruption.

Browning said the state painstakingly checks all voters before removing them to avoid inadvertently taking off eligible voters as happened in two previous large-scale purge attempts.

"The policy of this department, this state, is that we will err on the side of the voter," he said.

Florida registers voters largely on an honor system, asking applicants to affirm on a signed form that they are not convicted felons or that their rights have been restored. State law requires the Elections Division to conduct criminal records checks only after voters are added to the rolls, and it takes months or even years to remove those who are ineligible, the Sun Sentinel found.

"It's scandalous, really," said Lance deHaven-Smith, professor of public policy at Florida State University. "Why do they have to cull the rolls after they get registered? They shouldn't get on the rolls in the first place."

Felons confused
Several felon voters interviewed by the Sun Sentinel expressed confusion over automatic clemency and said they thought their voting rights had been restored. Some said they merely signed registration forms that were filled out by volunteers.

"If I wasn't able to vote, they wouldn't have given me my [voter registration] card," said John A. Henderson, 55, a Hallandale Beach Democrat. "I voted the last time and the times before that."

Henderson served about a year in prison in the late 1990s for battery and trafficking in cocaine. He said he was unaware he needed to formally apply to restore his rights when he successfully registered to vote in 2002. Henderson has since cast ballots in at least six elections and received three updated voter ID cards from the Broward Supervisor of Elections Office, records show.

Broward elections officials were unaware of Henderson's criminal record and did not check it when he registered, said county elections spokeswoman Mary Cooney. Nonetheless, she said he will remain on the rolls "until we are directed otherwise to remove him."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbfelons1012sboct12,0,3762352.story

Manos
10-13-2008, 02:07 PM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm

CLEVELAND - A man at the center of a voter-registration scandal told The Post yesterday he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times, in apparent violation of Ohio laws.
"Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the left-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_fraud

KANSAS - Charlene Davis, co-director of the election board in Jackson County, where Kansas City is, said the fraudulent registration forms came from the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN. She said they were bogging down work Wednesday, the final day Missourians could register to vote.
"I don't even know the entire scope of it because registrations are coming in so heavy," Davis said. "We have identified about 100 duplicates, and probably 280 addresses that don't exist, people who have driver's license numbers that won't verify or Social Security numbers that won't verify. Some have no address at all."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hvb0LfZQ5mY-X8PYSvYxTe3QGgdgD93LVDS80

LAS VEGAS (AP) — Nevada authorities seized records Tuesday from a group they accused of submitting fraudulent voter-registration forms — including for the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys."Tony Romo is not registered to vote in the state of Nevada, and anybody trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot on Nov. 4," said Secretary of State Ross Miller, referring to star players on the pro football team.
State authorities raided the headquarters of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a group that works to register low-income people. Miller said the raid was part of a monthslong investigation, and he contended the group had submitted registration forms that used false information or duplicated information on multiple forms. He did not estimate how many.

and in Houston....


http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/17671375/detail.html

HOUSTON - More than 1.9 million people are registered to vote in Harris County alone. But how many of the people listed on the voter roll are actually eligible to cast a ballot? Investigative reporter Amy Davis shows you how hundreds of voters could sway this year's election -- voters who are not even alive. "All-in-all, a great person, a great woman, just a wonderful person" is how Alexis Guidry described her mother to Local 2 Investigates.

"As far back as I can remember, they've always voted in the election," Guidry said of her parents. The March 2008 Primary was no exception. Voting records show Alexis' mom, Gloria Guidry, cast her ballot in person near her South Houston home. "It was just very shocking, a little unsettling," said Alexis Guidry. It's unsettling because Gloria Guidry died of cancer 10 months before the March Primary. "She'd be very upset," Guidry said when asked what her mom would think.
Trent Seibert, of Texas Watchdog, says you should be too. "This is really disquieting. It's concerning. It's worrisome," said Seibert. He heads up the non-partisan news group on the web. Texas Watchdog compared Harris County's voter registration roll with the Social Security death index and found more than 4,000 matches -- registered voters that, it appears, are already dead.........

........the State Auditor's Office conducted an audit of the voter registration system at the Secretary of State's Office last November.
Auditors identified 49,049 registered voters state-wide who may have been ineligible to vote. Approximately 23,576 may have been deceased and another 23,114 were possible felons. And they found more than 2,359 duplicate records.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-13-2008, 02:15 PM
The massive attempts to rig this election by groups like Accorn are disgusting but what is troubling is so few Americans really seem to care.

PHX-SOXFAN
10-13-2008, 03:04 PM
The massive attempts to rig this election by groups like Accorn are disgusting but what is troubling is so few Americans really seem to care.

because they are aware that fliers are being passed out misinforming black neighborhoods about polling place, voting date, etc. are also being done. They also read about massive numbers of names being removed from the voter registration lists. Are you going to mention this or is it just acorn that is trying to fix the election?:speechless::speechless:

try to be objective every once in a while.

YanksFan4Life
10-13-2008, 03:11 PM
because they are aware that fliers are being passed out misinforming black neighborhoods about polling place, voting date, etc. are also being done. They also read about massive numbers of names being removed from the voter registration lists. Are you going to mention this or is it just acorn that is trying to fix the election?:speechless::speechless:

try to be objective every once in a while.

Wait, are you seriously excusing their actions? Wow. Talk about double standards.

ink
10-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Wait, are you seriously excusing their actions? Wow. Talk about double standards.

No. The Acorn stuff is ludicrous. No one should be making any excuses about it. Luckily it's getting caught.

PHX-SOXFAN
10-13-2008, 03:22 PM
Wait, are you seriously excusing their actions? Wow. Talk about double standards.

nowhere in my post did I do any such thing. I merely pointed out the crap tactics used by the right this time around and the past two cycles as well. I'm pointing out a poster's double standard in only identifying one side as being guilty of messing with the election methods. I'm calling out a double standard, not providing one.

YanksFan4Life
10-13-2008, 03:29 PM
nowhere in my post did I do any such thing. I merely pointed out the crap tactics used by the right this time around and the past two cycles as well. I'm pointing out a poster's double standard in only identifying one side as being guilty of messing with the election methods. I'm calling out a double standard, not providing one.

Fair enough.

Manos
10-14-2008, 08:29 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00041/a4s_vote101408_41870c.jpeg

Thanks for registering me to vote in the swing state of Florida ACORN!

Yours truly,

Mickey Mouse


:cheers:

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 09:51 AM
Yea -- as far as voter registration goes, it's up to the county auditor to overrule registration applications. You need a lot of information in order to get people registered (ssns, state ids, name, birthdate, address).

It's not as though you can get Mickey Mouse registered and actually have it make it through the auditors office.

And, tell me this -- even if it was able to make it through the auditors office -- what poll worker in their right mind would allow "Mickey Mouse" to actually walk in and pick up a ballot to vote without holding that ballot aside on suspicion?

You have no idea how many voter registration requests I had returned to me based on missing or incorrect information. If the auditor's office is doing their job, then there's no big deal.

This ACORN issue is a non-issue. I'd like to see corresponding numbers as to the percentage of declined VRA's before any final determination is made.

I'm not saying that mass registration of ineligible voters is a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. But, blocking "non-voters" isn't a difficult thing to do. And, it's probably what has been done in most cases. It certainly isn't anything like completely blocking people from voting because their name is similar to a felon.

There's also a reason that this "issue" with ACORN has just now arisen. They've been registering people all year (I believe 1.3 million across the country). But, it's become an issue now because most states have closed voter registration. So, it's too late in the game for people to be stripped of their registration and re-registered. I have a feeling that the next step that is going to be pursued is complete overturn of all ACORN related voter registrations. If that's done, they'll likely block a significant number of people from getting into a polling booth and exercising their state right. And, that's wrong, too.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-14-2008, 10:53 AM
BOGUS VOTER BOOTED AMID PROBE OF ACORN
4,000 OF LEFT-WING GROUP'S SIGN-UPS ARE SHADY

By JEANE MacINTOSH in Cleveland and MAGGIE HABERMAN in

October 14, 2008

Investigators probing ACORN have learned that an Ohio man registered to vote several times and cast a bogus ballot with a fake address, officials said yesterday, as they revealed that nearly 4,000 registration applications supplied by the left-leaning activist group were suspect.

MORE: Mac Tries To Rally Troops

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OPINION: The O Jesse Knows

The vote of Darnell Nash, one of four people subpoenaed in a Cuyahoga County probe of ACORN's voter-registration activities, was canceled and his case was turned over to local prosecutors and law enforcement, Board of Elections officials said yesterday.

Nash had registered to vote repeatedly from an address that belonged to a legitimately registered voter, officials said during a hearing at which the subpoenaed voters were to testify.

Board officials had contacted Nash this summer, questioned his address and told him to stop repeat registering.

But still, he breezed into Ohio election offices - the state allows early voting for president - reregistered with a fake address and cast a paper ballot, officials said.

"He came in on 9/30 and Mr. Nash again registered to vote at [someone else's] address, and he cast a ballot," said board official Jane Platten.

Nash did not turn up for the hearing.

The Post reported last week on the Cleveland-area probe and the subpoenas, which were sent out to four people - including two voters who said they were hounded by ACORN workers to register over and over, even when they warned they'd already done so.

It's the latest issue in the probe of ACORN's registering voters in Ohio, one of at least nine states where officials are investigating similar reports of phony sign-ups by the group.

At the same time, officials said, some 5 percent, or 3,650, of the 73,000 total registration cards turned in by ACORN in the Cleveland area from its Project Vote initiative to sign up low-income voters were "questionable," Platten said.

There were "egregious acts of registering multiple times," said Platten. "The extent of it is beyond the resources of this board."

Nash's case and three others were turned over to authorities yesterday, said Ryan Miday, a spokesman for prosecutor Bill Masson.

"We will consider presenting it to a grand jury," Miday said.

A member of the board said if necessary, the FBI or federal prosecutors could be brought in for assistance.

Still, members of the bipartisan board downplayed any voter fraud.

And Platten insisted officials with ACORN have offered "any and all" help in probing the questionable activities. Katy Gall, the Ohio state director for ACORN, said her group is cooperating fully with the investigation.

She added that her group has fired anyone who was found soliciting duplicate registrations.

ACORN, whose political arm has endorsed Democratic nominee Barack Obama, has signed up more than 1.3 million voters for this cycle.

ACORN adviser Scott Levenson said, "If one of the 13,000 [people] we hired is potentially a bad apple in the bunch, we encourage the authorities to prosecute, as appropriate, anyone that did the wrong thing. We discipline [and] we fire workers who [abuse their position] . . . We encourage prosecutors to follow suit."

He also denied suggestions that the group pays canvassers by the number of names they sign up, and that they have quotas.

Also yesterday:

* Two of the four subpoenaed voters, Freddie Johnson and Christopher Barkley, met privately with sheriff's deputies and described what they'd told The Post about being hounded by ACORN workers. Barkley testified at the hearing that some of the registration cards listing his name weren't filled out by him.

* In an e-mail to supporters, John McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin, slammed "the left-wing activist group ACORN" and suggested, "We can't allow leftist groups like ACORN to steal this election."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/news/politics/bogus_voter_booted_amid_probe_of_acorn_133540.htm

SLY WILLIAMS
10-14-2008, 10:56 AM
Multiple registrants tell Cuyahoga County Elections Board ACORN workers begged for signatures
Pair signed multiple vote cards for ACORN
Tuesday, October 14, 2008
Joe Guillen
Plain Dealer Reporter

Teenager Freddie Johnson said he was offered smokes and dollar bills to fill out voter registration cards.

And now the Cuyahoga County Elections Board has 73 cards with Johnson's name on them.

Johnson and another prolific registrant were subpoenaed to testify at a meeting Monday as the Elections Board continued its look at possible fraud by ACORN, a national organization that tries to get low- and moderate-income people to register. ACORN's methods have drawn interest in a number of states this presidential election year.

Johnson, 19, said he mostly was trying to help ACORN workers who begged him to sign up because they needed to keep their jobs.

"They'd come up with a sob story why they needed the signature," said Johnson, of Garfield Heights.

ACORN leaders have acknowledged that workers paid by the hour were given quotas to fill.

Board member Sandy McNair said ACORN did not do a competent job carrying out its business plan. Members, in fact, said little about ACORN. And they turned their investigation over to the county sheriff and prosecutor.

A second person to testify, Christopher Barkley, 33, said ACORN workers pestered him while they tried to gather signatures.

Barkley, of Cleveland, said he was homeless and reading a book on Public Square when he signed some of the 13 cards that contain his name. He filled out cards - with his mother's house or workplace as the address - to help workers stay employed.

"Me being a kind-hearted person, I said 'Yeah,' " Barkley recalled.
Barkley, who wore a Domino's Pizza polo shirt, also told the board he was not sure he signed all the cards that had his name.

After the testimony, board Chairman Jeff Hastings paged through a binder that contained copies of cards with Barkley's name on them, and said, "This is ridiculous."

Sheriff's deputies interviewed both men separately after their testimony. They were released and not charged. Chief Deputy Doug Burkhart said they are possible witnesses.

The board decided that Johnson and Barkley must cast provisional ballots if they vote in the presidential election. Provisional ballots are not counted until after the election and only after a voter's address is verified.

Two other people were subpoenaed for Monday but could not be found. The board canceled both of their registrations and forced another woman involved in the investigation to vote provisionally in the Nov. 4 election.

One of the no-shows has already tried to vote, the board was told. His registration already had been canceled, yet he tried to register and vote on the same day about two weeks ago. Board workers recognized his name and stopped him.

Katy Gall, ACORN's Ohio director, said outside the meeting that she's proud of the work her group did. Gall said some of the 13,000 canvassers nationwide obviously didn't live up to the organization's standards. She said ACORN will continue to help with the county's investigation and try to refine its programs.

The Cuyahoga board identified up to 60 people whose names appeared on suspicious ACORN-submitted cards.

Elections Director Jane Platten said the board has safeguards to catch fraudulent cards and stressed that voter registration fraud is not the same as voter fraud.

Ohio law says a person must cast a provisional ballot if an address cannot be verified. The board checks addresses by sending out mail that is not to be forwarded. Poll books are marked to tell workers who must cast provisional ballots.

Board member Rob Frost, also the county GOP chairman, said he is not convinced Barkley and Johnson would have tried to vote more than once. He said it's clear ACORN workers disregarded registration laws.

"I wouldn't want there to be widespread fear that what ACORN has caused will lead to widespread [voter] fraud," Frost said after the meeting.

Board workers said ACORN had turned in nearly 72,000 cards since January. Of those, more than 5,000 were missing information and so could not be used. The board could not verify the address on 3,500 others. Those people will have to vote provisionally if they turn out at the polls.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1223973289273860.xml&coll=2

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 10:59 AM
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1223973289273860.xml&coll=2

So .... ok?

Somebody at ACORN was being a d-bag and trying to make a quota so he wouldn't get fired.

It's not as though the kid gets to vote 73 times.

ink
10-14-2008, 01:35 PM
So .... ok?

Somebody at ACORN was being a d-bag and trying to make a quota so he wouldn't get fired.

It's not as though the kid gets to vote 73 times.

You're right. In fact these organizations are the ones who are doing the pre-election name checking aren't they? ACORN itself already has built in procedures to vet these lists. If they weren't working, we wouldn't even know about these false registrations. So, it's good to hear that the system is working.

This is the worst of the allegations people are trying to stick to the Dems, but most of the allegations are just plain weak. That's the main reason why most of these "scandals" are met with eye-rolling.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-14-2008, 02:02 PM
Obama and Acorn
Community organizers, phony voters, and your tax dollars.

At the recent Emmy Awards, historian Laura Linney averred that America's Founders had been "community organizers" -- like Barack Obama. Too bad they aren't like that any more. Mr. Obama's kind of organizers work at Acorn, the militant advocacy group that is turning up in reports about voter fraud across the country.
[Review & Outlook] AP

Acorn -- the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now -- has been around since 1970 and boasts 350,000 members. We've written about them for years, but Acorn is now getting more attention as John McCain's campaign makes an issue of the fraud reports and Acorn's ties to Mr. Obama. It's about time someone exposed this shady outfit that uses government dollars to lobby for larger government.

Acorn uses various affiliated groups to agitate for "a living wage," for "affordable housing," for "tax justice" and union and environmental goals, as well as against school choice and welfare reform. It was a major contributor to the subprime meltdown by pushing lenders to make home loans on easy terms, conducting "strikes" against banks so they'd lower credit standards.

But the organization's real genius is getting American taxpayers to foot the bill. According to a 2006 report from the Employment Policies Institute (EPI), Acorn has been on the federal take since 1977. For instance, Acorn's American Institute for Social Justice claimed $240,000 in tax money between fiscal years 2002 and 2003. Its American Environmental Justice Project received 100% of its revenue from government grants in the same years. EPI estimates the Acorn Housing Corporation alone received some $16 million in federal dollars from 1997-2007. Only recently, Democrats tried and failed to stuff an "affordable housing" provision into the $700 billion bank rescue package that would have let politicians give even more to Acorn.

All this money gives Acorn the ability to pursue its other great hobby: electing liberals. Acorn is spending $16 million this year to register new Democrats and is already boasting it has put 1.3 million new voters on the rolls. The big question is how many of these registrations are real.

The Michigan Secretary of State told the press in September that Acorn had submitted "a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications." Earlier this month, Nevada's Democratic Secretary of State Ross Miller requested a raid on Acorn's offices, following complaints of false names and fictional addresses (including the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys). Nevada's Clark County Registrar of Voters Larry Lomax said he saw rampant fraud in 2,000 to 3,000 applications Acorn submitted weekly.

Officials in Ohio are investigating voter fraud connected with Acorn, and Florida's Seminole County is withholding Acorn registrations that appear fraudulent. New Mexico, North Carolina and Missouri are looking into hundreds of dubious Acorn registrations. Wisconsin is investigating Acorn employees for, according to an election official, "making people up or registering people that were still in prison."

Then there's Lake County, Indiana, which has already found more than 2,100 bogus applications among the 5,000 Acorn dumped right before the deadline. "All the signatures looked exactly the same," said Ruthann Hoagland, of the county election board. Bridgeport, Connecticut estimates about 20% of Acorn's registrations were faulty. As of July, the city of Houston had rejected or put on hold about 40% of the 27,000 registration cards submitted by Acorn.

That's just this year. In 2004, four Acorn employees were indicted in Ohio for submitting false voter registrations. In 2005, two Colorado Acorn workers were found to have submitted false registrations. Four Acorn Missouri employees were indicted in 2006; five were found guilty in Washington state in 2007 for filling out registration forms with names from a phone book.

Which brings us to Mr. Obama, who got his start as a Chicago "community organizer" at Acorn's side. In 1992 he led voter registration efforts as the director of Project Vote, which included Acorn. This past November, he lauded Acorn's leaders for being "smack dab in the middle" of that effort. Mr. Obama also served as a lawyer for Acorn in 1995, in a case against Illinois to increase access to the polls.

During his tenure on the board of Chicago's Woods Fund, that body funneled more than $200,000 to Acorn. More recently, the Obama campaign paid $832,000 to an Acorn affiliate. The campaign initially told the Federal Election Commission this money was for "staging, sound, lighting." It later admitted the cash was to get out the vote.


The Obama campaign is now distancing itself from Acorn, claiming Mr. Obama never organized with it and has nothing to do with illegal voter registration. Yet it's disingenuous to channel cash into an operation with a history of fraud and then claim you're shocked to discover reports of fraud. As with Rev. Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers, Mr. Obama was happy to associate with Acorn when it suited his purposes. But now that he's on the brink of the Presidency, he wants to disavow his ties.

The Justice Department needs to treat these fraud reports as something larger than a few local violators. The question is whether Acorn is systematically subverting U.S. election law -- on the taxpayer's dime.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122394051071230749.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Acorn is militant, now? I didn't know they were engaging in aggressive combat tactics to get voters registered.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-14-2008, 02:17 PM
Dictionary:
militant
(mĭl'ĭ-tənt) pronunciation

adj.

1. Fighting or warring.
2. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.

Antonyms: militant

adj

Definition: aggressive, combative
http://www.answers.com/topic/militant

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 02:22 PM
Dictionary:
militant
(mĭl'ĭ-tənt) pronunciation

adj.

1. Fighting or warring.
2. Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.

Antonyms: militant

adj

Definition: aggressive, combative
http://www.answers.com/topic/militant

I still think it's a misuse of a term.

PHX-SOXFAN
10-14-2008, 02:35 PM
I still think it's a misuse of a term.

that's how fear mongering and scare tactics work, too bad they aren't helping their cause in this cycle:D

ink
10-14-2008, 02:39 PM
Acorn is militant, now? I didn't know they were engaging in aggressive combat tactics to get voters registered.

There's another difference that bears mentioning. There is a major difference between registration fraud and voter fraud. Does the Republican party want to mislead people into thinking that this registration fraud WHICH IS BEING CAUGHT by Acorn is the same as voter fraud? Obviously they benefit when people confuse the two. Well, 1. they're not the same thing, and 2. as part of the registration process, Acorn vets all paperwork. Acorn itself is the agency that is preventing voter fraud.

I wonder how long it will take for the media to catch up to this story and report correctly that John McCain also has ties to Acorn. He was the keynote speaker at a rally co-sponsored by them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9wy2MI1NI&eurl=http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=10&year=2008&base_name=mccain_acorn_makes_america_spe) in 2006. He and his campaign are trying to be political opportunists again.

btw, in the video, McCain is introduced to a standing ovation at the 1:30 mark. In the course of his speech he talks about how groups like Acorn are what "makes America special". Too late to take those words back now. Hey, I know, let's play the guilt-by-association game with John McCain.

God, this election is getting trivial and stupid.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 02:47 PM
He was the keynote speaker at a rally co-sponsored by them in 2006
Are those his ties to them?

He spoke at an event, that was co-sponsored by them? That's a pretty weak connection.

ink
10-14-2008, 02:52 PM
Are those his ties to them?

He spoke at an event, that was co-sponsored by them? That's a pretty weak connection.

It's all weak gcoll. That's the point. Guilt by association is intellectually dishonest.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 02:57 PM
It's all weak gcoll. That's the point. Guilt by association is intellectually dishonest.

Guilt by association is intellectually dishonest in some cases.

If Obama is funneling campaign money to a group that is guilty of fraud....I'd say that's an issue.

ink
10-14-2008, 03:06 PM
Guilt by association is intellectually dishonest in some cases.

If Obama is funneling campaign money to a group that is guilty of fraud....I'd say that's an issue.

Frankly, since ACORN has not been found guilty of any widespread fraud, I think it's a voter suppression attempt by a party that's losing an election. And there is a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 03:09 PM
Frankly, since ACORN has not been found guilty of any widespread fraud, I think it's a voter suppression attempt by a party that's losing an election. And there is a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud.

It's a voter suppression attempt? That's a reach.

There's a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud? I guess. But can't registration fraud lead to voter fraud? I mean...what's the point of registering fake people, if they're not gonna vote? At the very least it compromises the integrity of the election.

But I find this ridiculous. Acorn is suspected of voter registration fraud. Obama has given almost a million dollars of campaign money to Acorn....and the Republicans are the one's at fault?

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 03:13 PM
It's a voter suppression attempt? That's a reach.

There's a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud? I guess. But can't registration fraud lead to voter fraud? I mean...what's the point of registering fake people, if they're not gonna vote? At the very least it compromises the integrity of the election.

But I find this ridiculous. Acorn is suspected of voter registration fraud. Obama has given almost a million dollars of campaign money to Acorn....and the Republicans are the one's at fault?

It isn't as though Obama had direct knowledge of Acorn's activities (or at least it hasn't been proven).

It would be the same as you owning a company, outsourcing an aspect of your company, and then finding out (after the fact) the company that you outsourced to had employees involved in deviant behavior. It's not necessarily your fault.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-14-2008, 03:17 PM
It's a voter suppression attempt? That's a reach.

There's a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud? I guess. But can't registration fraud lead to voter fraud? I mean...what's the point of registering fake people, if they're not gonna vote? At the very least it compromises the integrity of the election.

But I find this ridiculous. Acorn is suspected of voter registration fraud. Obama has given almost a million dollars of campaign money to Acorn....and the Republicans are the one's at fault?

If you a person cares about having an legitimate non fixed election for the president of America I would think that person would be very upset at all the cases of voter registration fraud and actual voter fraud that has been reported in recent days. The fact that it seems to surround one organization (Acorn) over and over again should be investigated very thoroughly by the FBI. The problem is nobody cares anymore when people commit crimes. Its always who cares and the other guy did this. If Acorn was trying to rig the election for a republican you can be reasonably sure this would be front pages news in the NY Times and Olberman would be going nuts. It is too bad because Obama probably could have won legitimately. Now if he wins many of us will remember how Acorn tried to fix the election in many battle ground states. This is nothing new. I remember the paying the homeless in cigarettes and booze in a past presidential election.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 03:17 PM
It isn't as though Obama had direct knowledge of Acorn's activities (or at least it hasn't been proven).
Right. But the link is troubling. And some of the news about Acorn is troubling.

More information is needed.


If Acorn was trying to rig the election for a republican you can be reasonably sure this would be front pages news in the NY Times and Olberman would be going nuts.
Probably. But so what? That doesn't change the facts.

ink
10-14-2008, 03:26 PM
It's a voter suppression attempt? That's a reach.

There's a huge difference between registration fraud and voter fraud? I guess. But can't registration fraud lead to voter fraud? I mean...what's the point of registering fake people, if they're not gonna vote? At the very least it compromises the integrity of the election.

But I find this ridiculous. Acorn is suspected of voter registration fraud. Obama has given almost a million dollars of campaign money to Acorn....and the Republicans are the one's at fault?

I don't think it's a reach at all to say that this is a voter suppression attempt. If the GOP smear machine can create enough doubts (that's what smear machines are made for), they will make people question the credibility of the organization that's working to get their vote out, and they will also (by guilt-by-association) cast aspersions on Obama.

"What's the point of registering fake people if they're not going to vote?"

smthblucitrus already answered that one very clearly: the person working for the company is trying to make their quota. Haven't you ever been a paperboy? You get paid by the unit. Same principle. But the point is that Acorn itself is vetting these registrations and firing the wrongdoers.

You know, I really think the public is going to tune out the GOP if they keep on scandal-mongering. I know I've certainly tuned out the scandal-mongers on this board. But, hey, it's their campaign. They picked Sarah Palin and god knows that hasn't done anything but appease the right wing of the right wing. Everyone else can see her for what she really is. It's the same with many of these non-issues the campaign has attempted and failed at throughout the campaign.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 03:30 PM
I don't think it's a reach at all to say that this is a voter suppression attempt. If the GOP smear machine can create enough doubts (that's what smear machines are made for), they will make people question the credibility of the organization that's working to get their vote out, and they will also (by guilt-by-association) cast aspersions on Obama.
But if they level criticisms that are true, how can you fault them?


But the point is that Acorn itself is vetting these registrations and firing the wrongdoers.
Then there should be nothing to worry about.

However, isn't this the same group that buses people to voting places in order to increase turnout?


Hey, did you see Kathleen Parker on the Colbert Report last night? Very funny interview.
No. I don't have cable at my apartment that I moved into for this semester.

ink
10-14-2008, 03:39 PM
But if they level criticisms that are true, how can you fault them?

You've struck gold there. Virtually every time they bring up a topic, the fact checkers say they're flat out lying, or at the very least stretching the truth to make a tenuous connection. It's a National Enquirer type scenario, where people begin to roll their eyes at the mention of a new "scandal". When a party begins to lose credibility like that, you can kiss the election goodbye. I think the McCain campaign lost a lot of credibility last week.


Then there should be nothing to worry about.

However, isn't this the same group that buses people to voting places in order to increase turnout?

They bus people with proper registration papers and ID, yes.

gcoll
10-14-2008, 03:48 PM
You've struck gold there. Virtually every time they bring up a topic, the fact checkers say they're flat out lying, or at the very least stretching the truth to make a tenuous connection
What truth is there to stretch?

Acorn has forged some voter registration forms. Does this worry you?

Is there potential, using these forms, to commit voter fraud?


It's a National Enquirer type scenario, where people begin to roll their eyes at the mention of a new "scandal". When a party begins to lose credibility like that, you can kiss the election goodbye. I think the McCain campaign lost a lot of credibility last week.
As much as you want, this story is not the fault of the Republicans.


They bus people with proper registration papers and ID, yes.
Yes. And they also forge voter registration papers.

So, you have a group running around...picking up anyone they can find to go vote. And you also have this same group responsible for registering fake people. Do you see where this could lead to a problem?

ink
10-14-2008, 03:52 PM
So, you have a group running around...picking up anyone they can find to go vote. And you also have this same group responsible for registering fake people. Do you see where this could lead to a problem?

They need registration papers AND ID right?

PHX-SOXFAN
10-14-2008, 03:54 PM
But if they level criticisms that are true, how can you fault them?


Then there should be nothing to worry about.

However, isn't this the same group that buses people to voting places in order to increase turnout?


No. I don't have cable at my apartment that I moved into for this semester.

what is wrong with providing transportation for someone to take part in an election. That's not only ethical but should be applauded by both sides. IT's the exact opposite of giving out misleading information about polling places, election date, etc. to confuse people.

Can you give me one thing that's wrong with providing a means for someone to vote at the place they are registered? I'm pretty sure every campaign will provide transportation to registered voters. I'm really confused about why you would describe this activity as reflecting negatively on anyone:confused:

gcoll
10-14-2008, 03:57 PM
They need registration papers AND ID right?

See. And now you've hit on why people like requiring IDs at voting places.


what is wrong with providing transportation for someone to take part in an election.
On the surface? Nothing.


Can you give me one thing that's wrong with providing a means for someone to vote at the place they are registered?
Yes. If they are encouraged, or even instructed to vote for a certain candidate.

But then again...these people have registered fake people. It's not a given that these people are registered.

PHX-SOXFAN
10-14-2008, 04:09 PM
See. And now you've hit on why people like requiring IDs at voting places.


On the surface? Nothing.


Yes. If they are encouraged, or even instructed to vote for a certain candidate.

But then again...these people have registered fake people. It's not a given that these people are registered.

so how do you view the fact that every major presidential campaign in my lifetime has provided transportation from volunteers for the campaign to the elderly while openly endorsing their candidate.:speechless:

This goes beyond acorn. This is part of political campaigning. Providing transportation for those who are going to vote for your candidate is completely acceptable. It's ok for obama, it's ok for mccain. I hope they both do it to help everyone who wants to, have the chance to exercise their right to vote. I don't care if newt gingrich, karl rove, nancy pelosi, keith olberman, or sean hannity are driving the buses. providing transportation is a great thing.:clap::clap::D the laws and ethics of this country also agree. You're just getting carried away on the soapbox.

ink
10-14-2008, 04:10 PM
See. And now you've hit on why people like requiring IDs at voting places.

I would never disagree with having ID at a polling station. I believe the issue was that some states were requiring more than one piece of ID, and of those, it's been proven that some were of the type that african-american voters tend not to have.

YanksFan4Life
10-14-2008, 04:22 PM
I would never disagree with having ID at a polling station. I believe the issue was that some states were requiring more than one piece of ID, and of those, it's been proven that some were of the type that african-american voters tend not to have.

If you are ok with people having IDs to vote, how do you feel about all those people we were talking about last week who got to vote without ID?

ink
10-14-2008, 04:30 PM
If you are ok with people having IDs to vote, how do you feel about all those people we were talking about last week who got to vote without ID?

They should have ID. What state was that in?

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 04:38 PM
I vote without an ID -- there are no ID laws in Iowa.

ink
10-14-2008, 04:39 PM
I vote without an ID -- there are no ID laws in Iowa.

Do you have to supply any proof of who you are? I just took that for granted since I've had to provide ID every time I've ever had to vote.

I have to admit, I don't understand why there are such irregularities in the voting system. Looks like the system just isn't working - for either side.

Seppuku
10-14-2008, 04:40 PM
See. And now you've hit on why people like requiring IDs at voting places.


On the surface? Nothing.


Yes. If they are encouraged, or even instructed to vote for a certain candidate.

But then again...these people have registered fake people. It's not a given that these people are registered.

You seem to be making a big to-do about nothing. There are thousands upon thousands of bad forms filled out. Any form that is filled out is required by law to be turned in. If a bad form is filled out, it is then turned over with all of the good forms and the registration processors have to weed them out. Unless ACORN is also the government agency which processes these forms (which they are not) then they CANNOT register a fraudulent voter. They can turn in bad forms til December and it still isn't an issue. ACORN can only turn them all in as required by law. It is a manufactured evil. Heck, for all we know, some Republican fraternity is filling out all of the forms and then turning them in to ACORN because they know that it is illegal for ACORN to not turn them in. Maybe gcoll is one of those trying to discredit ACORN by turning in these bad voter forms to them. It still doesn't change the fact that the official screeners are the ones to weed them out.

SmthBluCitrus
10-14-2008, 04:44 PM
Do you have to supply any proof of who you are? I just took that for granted since I've had to provide ID every time I've ever had to vote.

I have to admit, I don't understand why there are such irregularities in the voting system. Looks like the system just isn't working - for either side.

Well -- I voted by absentee ballot/early ballot the past few elections (the upcoming general, the state Democratic Primary, and the Illinois primary -- I lived in Illinois until mid January), so I didn't need to provide ID for them ... they got mailed to me and I mailed them back with my info -- name, address, ssn, state id #.

But, in the last presidential election ('o4) I lived in Iowa. I walked in, told them my name, signed a voter sheet, and they handed me my ballot. Then I got my "I Voted" sticker and left.

ink
10-14-2008, 06:24 PM
Here are the voting and ID options we have up here. Our elections administration's only priority is to get people to vote. There are three ways to provide ID (http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=ele&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e&textonly=false). Option 1: Driver's License with photo ID, Option 2: a massive list of ID cards accepted, as long as you have a second piece of ID that corroborates your address (bank statement, etc.), Option 3: you can swear an oath that you are who you say you are, and you have a witness who can vouch for you, and who has the proper ID. Same rules everywhere in the country.

DenButsu
10-15-2008, 05:26 AM
Sen. McCain Stood With ACORN Rally In 2006

A goldfish's lifetime ago, Sen. John McCain was happy to accept the honors and acclamation of the Service Employees International Union, People for the American Way, UNITE HERE -- and ACORN. Here he is, on Feb. 20, 2006, telling immigration rights activists at a rally in Miami that they "are what makes America special." ACORN co-sponsored the rally, and its volunteers surround McCain, and while there's no evidence that McCain ever formally teamed with the group, the video serves as a reminder that he did not mind being associated with them when the politics of the moment were different. (The video clip was e-mailed to this column by a Democrat who supports Barack Obama.)

LINK to the youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9wy2MI1NI&eurl=http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php)

It's important to know, as you watch this, that ACORN was, to Republican field operatives, a Dirty Word in 2006...and in 2004, but general awareness among politicians and activists of what it does was limited to those who had to deal with its voter registration efforts. See here. (A clue: they were part of the America Coming Together consortium in 2004...that should have been a clue as to their ideological leanings.)

A few weeks ago, House Republicans screamed bloody murder when it appeared as if ACORN would benefit from the bailout bill, although McCain, President Bush and House Republicans have supported legislation with similar provisions before and they spent billions on the Road Home project, which contracts with ACORN to help provide housing for Katrina refugees. (You can't say...ah, but ACORN wasn't suspected of doing anything bad earlier... you can't say that because ACORN has been doing what ACORN is accused of doing for several cycles now.)

In 2008, of course, ACORN has become a stand-in not only for the registration fraud allegations, but also for the coincident insinuations that Sen. Obama and his liberal allies are trying to steal the election in battleground states. Indeed, because "ACORN" has become a national political issue, it will be hard for Republicans to use it as a political wedge issue. Once an attack is associated with a party, it doesn't become an attack; it becomes part of party dogma and can service only party activists.

McCain had no trouble fraternizing with ACORN in 2006 when their political interests coincided with his. Now, his campaign is writing e-mails in his name bashing ACORN as a tool of the Obama machine.

"We need your help to ensure a fair and honest election. Already we have seen nationwide voter registration fraud by ACORN - a group closely linked to Barack Obama," one e-mail from "The McCain Legal Team" says. Ambinder (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php)

ari1013
10-15-2008, 09:14 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00041/a4s_vote101408_41870c.jpeg

Thanks for registering me to vote in the swing state of Florida ACORN!

Yours truly,

Mickey Mouse


:cheers:
And is "Mickey Mouse" going to get to vote?

ari1013
10-15-2008, 09:14 AM
Ambinder (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_lifetime_ago_sen_john.php)
Yeah sucks to be McCain right now. Then again nobody ever calls him on his hypocrisy so who cares.

ink
10-15-2008, 11:36 AM
And is "Mickey Mouse" going to get to vote?

Precisely the point. The GOP is benefitting on this issue by confusing registration fraud with voting fraud.

The Dallas Cowboys football team is not going to be able to vote in Nevada and neither is Mickey Mouse in FLA. The fools that prepared these forms were just trying to make more money at the REGISTRATION stage.

ari1013
10-15-2008, 11:44 AM
Precisely the point. The GOP is benefitting on this issue by confusing registration fraud with voting fraud.

The Dallas Cowboys football team is not going to be able to vote in Nevada and neither is Mickey Mouse in FLA. The fools that prepared these forms were just trying to make more money at the REGISTRATION stage.
Right. Counterfeiting is illegal and they should be prosecuted. But this has nothing to do with the actual finalized voter rolls.

Manos
10-15-2008, 02:46 PM
And is "Mickey Mouse" going to get to vote?

No, because that one was caught due to the ridiculous name. I wonder if the name had been Fred Stevens whether it would been caught. You think?

The most disturbing thing is how many of you shrug this type of crap off like its no big deal. The same people that are committing the registration fraud are the same people that say that requiring IDs at polling locations is racist and disenfranchises minorities. It's ******** and you should be as dismayed with it as I am. This is not a partisan issue, but for some of you it seems to be okay as long as it may benefit the party you support.

ink
10-15-2008, 02:49 PM
I posted a link to a fair way of requiring ID above. No one bothered with it.

edit in: looks to me like the problem is systemic. It isn't a partisan issue.

hoosiercubsfan
10-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Here are the voting and ID options we have up here. Our elections administration's only priority is to get people to vote. There are three ways to provide ID (http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=ele&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e&textonly=false). Option 1: Driver's License with photo ID, Option 2: a massive list of ID cards accepted, as long as you have a second piece of ID that corroborates your address (bank statement, etc.), Option 3: you can swear an oath that you are who you say you are, and you have a witness who can vouch for you, and who has the proper ID. Same rules everywhere in the country.

I'd be fine with the first two though would be a little leery of the third. Here in Indiana we have done the first where a photo ID is required to vote. If you do not have one you are still allowed to vote and have a certain amount of time to be able to prove you are who you say you are. Like if you left it at home or something like that. You are given a provisional ballot that is not counted until you have proven your true identity. And the license branches around election time stay open longer and give away free state issued ID's to anyone who comes in with proper paper work much like what is listed in #2 of above. And I would love to see the same enacted all over the country. You cannot do much of anything in this country without a valid or even expired state issued photo ID. You cannot enter a federal building, board an airplane, or even cash a check without ID.

ink
10-15-2008, 03:29 PM
I'd be fine with the first two though would be a little leery of the third. Here in Indiana we have done the first where a photo ID is required to vote. If you do not have one you are still allowed to vote and have a certain amount of time to be able to prove you are who you say you are. Like if you left it at home or something like that. You are given a provisional ballot that is not counted until you have proven your true identity. And the license branches around election time stay open longer and give away free state issued ID's to anyone who comes in with proper paper work much like what is listed in #2 of above. And I would love to see the same enacted all over the country. You cannot do much of anything in this country without a valid or even expired state issued photo ID. You cannot enter a federal building, board an airplane, or even cash a check without ID.

Does every state have it's own electoral authority? If so, why?

SmthBluCitrus
10-15-2008, 05:06 PM
No, because that one was caught due to the ridiculous name. I wonder if the name had been Fred Stevens whether it would been caught. You think?

The most disturbing thing is how many of you shrug this type of crap off like its no big deal. The same people that are committing the registration fraud are the same people that say that requiring IDs at polling locations is racist and disenfranchises minorities. It's ******** and you should be as dismayed with it as I am. This is not a partisan issue, but for some of you it seems to be okay as long as it may benefit the party you support.

Yes, "Fred Stevens" probably would have been caught-- because it wouldn't have matched any county auditor records. Believe it or not, they do check those things -- that's why we hear about them.

Because, "Fred Stevens" needs a valid SSN, State ID, and/or birthday that matches what records say.

It's super easy to catch these things -- that's why they get caught.

YanksFan4Life
10-15-2008, 05:49 PM
Yes, "Fred Stevens" probably would have been caught-- because it wouldn't have matched any county auditor records. Believe it or not, they do check those things -- that's why we hear about them.

Because, "Fred Stevens" needs a valid SSN, State ID, and/or birthday that matches what records say.

It's super easy to catch these things -- that's why they get caught.

No he doesn't. Didn't you read the argument we were having earlier about how all those droves of homeless were getting bused around and allowed to vote without ANY FORM of identification?

ari1013
10-15-2008, 05:59 PM
No, because that one was caught due to the ridiculous name. I wonder if the name had been Fred Stevens whether it would been caught. You think?

The most disturbing thing is how many of you shrug this type of crap off like its no big deal. The same people that are committing the registration fraud are the same people that say that requiring IDs at polling locations is racist and disenfranchises minorities. It's ******** and you should be as dismayed with it as I am. This is not a partisan issue, but for some of you it seems to be okay as long as it may benefit the party you support.
I'm not saying it's not a problem. The fact that fraudulent registrations are flooding the polling offices means that the average legal registration is more likely to accidentally also get disregarded.

A bigger problem to me though is what occurs on election day itself. In the end, all of those fake registrations will be caught and dealt with. Meanwhile, all the people who are misled about how, where, and when to vote will never get a chance to fix their mistake.

ari1013
10-15-2008, 06:00 PM
I'd be fine with the first two though would be a little leery of the third. Here in Indiana we have done the first where a photo ID is required to vote. If you do not have one you are still allowed to vote and have a certain amount of time to be able to prove you are who you say you are. Like if you left it at home or something like that. You are given a provisional ballot that is not counted until you have proven your true identity. And the license branches around election time stay open longer and give away free state issued ID's to anyone who comes in with proper paper work much like what is listed in #2 of above. And I would love to see the same enacted all over the country. You cannot do much of anything in this country without a valid or even expired state issued photo ID. You cannot enter a federal building, board an airplane, or even cash a check without ID.
That's quite fair.

SmthBluCitrus
10-15-2008, 06:57 PM
No he doesn't. Didn't you read the argument we were having earlier about how all those droves of homeless were getting bused around and allowed to vote without ANY FORM of identification?

First -- are you suggesting that homeless shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Second -- unless their names are on voter roles, they don't get to vote in that precinct. Or, they get to vote, but it's by provisional ballot. Provisional ballots get researched for the authenticity of the person voting and how they correlate to that specific district.

People assuming that random homeless people are getting to vote multiple times in multiple districts are sorely mistaken. That's not how it works. There is checking undergone by auditors, and deviations are flagged, and votes can be disqualified.

Even without ID, they still cannot vote without the proper information.

Here -- read about provisional ballots (http://www-lvs13.net.ohio-state.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part5/provisional05.html). These are just a few states, but laws about this are fairly universal.

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_ballot) <~ Wiki


A provisional ballot is used to record a vote when there is some question in regards to a given voter's eligibility. A provisional ballot would be cast when:

* The voter refuses to show a photo ID (in regions that require one)
* The voter's name does not appear on the electoral roll for the given precinct.
* The voter's registration contains inaccurate or out-dated information such as the wrong address or a misspelled name.
* The voter's ballot has already been recorded

Whether a provisional ballot is counted is contingent upon the verification of that voter's eligibility.

lakersrock
10-16-2008, 03:33 AM
THE NUTS AT ACORN COULD CAUSE OBAMA'S FALL

By DICK MORRIS

Published on TheHill.com on October 14, 2008

As Obama lengthens his lead, the Republicans are praying that the election becomes close enough for the Democrats to steal. But meanwhile, ACORN, the radical community group, is becoming an embarrassment for Obama. It is not as if its shenanigans are likely to tip the result, with the Democrats so far ahead. But as it is raided by the FBI in state after state (11 so far), it is becoming identified as the electoral equivalent of Greenpeace, extremists who will stop at nothing to get their way.

What makes ACORN particularly embarrassing for Obama is that he used to be one of them. He served as general counsel for ACORN in Illinois, channeled millions to the organization from the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (whose funds he distributed) and has lately spent $800,000 of his campaign money to subsidize the group's activities. For this emolument, ACORN has registered voters 15 times over, canvassed the graveyards for votes and prepared to commit electoral fraud on a massive scale.

With friends like this, Obama doesn't need enemies. As their radical activities make headlines every day, Obama's intimate involvement with these radicals becomes more and more of a political liability.

The other Obama scandals have no topical relevance. The Rev. Wright no longer spews hatred from the pulpit and has apparently been persuaded to stay away from media interviews. William Ayers is likewise making himself scarce, and the Obama/Ayers relationship, whatever it may have been, is clearly in the past.

Rezko is facing sentencing in his own corruption case, but isn't likely to turn on the one man who may acquire the power to pardon him.

But, as Election Day approaches and early balloting proceeds in many states, ACORN's tactics will get more and more media attention. As election officials discover ACORN frauds, the association will become more injurious to Obama, particularly when it is his own campaign that is funding many of the fraudulent activities.

At the very least, the negative publicity ACORN will attract will paint Obama as a radical with questionable judgment. At the most, it might cause voters to wonder if he is not himself involved in electoral fraud.

The recent book by Wall Street Journal editor John Fund, Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy, discusses the prevalence of voter fraud, made newly possible by lax enforcement of laws requiring identification to vote. As Fund indicates, the motor/voter laws have encouraged waves of new voters, many of them ineligible to participate. Let us remember that eight of the Sept. 11 hijackers were registered to vote!

So ACORN is the gift that will keep on giving as its activities attract attention while Election Day nears.

But are these McCain attacks on Obama going to work? Clearly they have not so far. Obama has lower negatives than McCain and his unfavorable rating has not risen despite the avalanche of attack advertising to which he has been subjected. Possibly, voters are just inured to the attacks and disregard them. But more likely they are just distracted by the financial meltdown all around them. We have never had a presidential race, since 1944, where the contest was not the most important news in the four weeks before the election. (In 1944, the war overshadowed the election, much to the frustration of the Republican candidate, Thomas E. Dewey.) The candidates seem unable to get a word in edgewise as the financial news dominates. People follow the Dow Jones more than the Gallup, Rasmussen or Zogby polls.

If the presidential race remains an afterthought, crowded out by the financial news, Obama will waltz into the White House by a comfortable margin. But if the stock market stops its gyrations for a while and no new household name/corporation or bank goes broke, the negatives against Obama will compel attention at last.

http://thehill.com/dick-morris/the-nuts-at-acorn--could-cause-obamas-fall-2008-10-14.html


The Obama-Ayers connection
By Dick Morris
Posted: 10/07/08 06:03 PM [ET]
In the best tradition of Bill Clinton’s famous declaration that the answer to the question of whether or not he was having an affair with Monica depended on “what the definition of ‘is’ is,” Barack Obama was clearly splitting hairs and concealing the truth when he said that William Ayers was “just a guy who lives in my neighborhood.”

The records of the administration of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC), released last week by the University of Illinois, show that the Ayers-Obama connection was, in fact, an intimate collaboration and that it led to the only executive or administrative experience in Obama’s life.

After Walter Annenberg’s foundation offered several hundred million dollars to American public schools in the mid-’90s, William Ayers applied for $50 million for Chicago. The purpose of his application was to secure funds to “raise political consciousness” in Chicago’s public schools. After he won the grant, Ayers’s group chose Barack Obama to distribute the money. Between 1995 and 1999, Obama distributed the $50 million and raised another $60 million from other civic groups to augment it. In doing so, he was following Ayers’s admonition to grant the funds to “external” organizations, like American Community Organizations for Reform

Now (ACORN) to pair with schools and conduct programs to radicalize the students and politicize them.

Reading, math and science achievement tests counted for little in the CAC grants, but the school’s success in preaching a radical political agenda determined how much money they got.

Barack Obama should have run screaming at the sight of William Ayers and his wife, Bernadette Dohrn. Ayers has admitted bombing the U.S. Capitol building and the Pentagon, and his wife was sent to prison for failing to cooperate in solving the robbery of a Brink’s armored car in which two police officers were killed. Far from remorse, Ayers told The New York Times in September 2001 that he “wished he could have done more.”

Ayers only avoided conviction when the evidence against him turned out to be contained in illegally obtained wiretaps by the FBI. He was, in fact, guilty as sin.

That Obama should ally himself with Ayers is almost beyond understanding. The former terrorist had not repented of his views and the education grants he got were expressly designed to further them.

So let’s sum up Obama’s Chicago connections. His chief financial supporter was Tony Rezko, now on his way to federal prison. His spiritual adviser and mentor was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, of “God damn America” fame. And the guy who got him his only administrative job and put him in charge of doling out $50 million is William Ayers, a terrorist who was a domestic Osama bin Laden in his youth.

Even apart from the details of the Obama/Ayers connection, two key points emerge:

a) Obama lied and misled the American people in his description of his relationship with Ayers as casual and arm’s-length; and

b) Obama was consciously guided by Ayers’s radical philosophy, rooted in the teachings of leftist Saul Alinksy, in his distribution of CAC grant funds.

Since Obama is asking us to let him direct education spending by the federal government and wants us to trust his veracity, these are difficulties he will have to explain in order to get the votes to win.

Now that Obama is comfortably ahead in the polls, attention will understandably shift to him. We will want to know what kind of president he would make. The fact that, within the past 10 years, he participated in a radical program of political education conceptualized by an admitted radical terrorist offers no reassurance.

Why did Obama put up with Ayers? Because he got a big job and $50 million of patronage to distribute to his friends and supporters in Chicago. Why did he hang out with Jeremiah Wright? Because he was new in town, having grown up in Hawaii and Indonesia and having been educated at Columbia and Harvard, and needed all the local introductions he could get to jump-start his political career. Why was he so close to Rezko?

Because he funded Obama’s campaigns and helped him buy a house for $300,000 less than he otherwise would have had to pay.

Not a good recommendation for a president.

http://thehill.com/dick-morris/the-obama-ayers-connection-2008-10-07.html

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 04:42 AM
Hate to break it to ya lakersrock, but John McCain has connections to ACORN, too (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7011915#post7011915).


Not to mention that the only "fraud" perpetuated was against ACORN, and not by them.

And not to mention that that fraud isn't even "voter fraud", but "voter registration fraud" which would be nearly impossible to actually parlay into real voter fraud.


I'd like any of the conservative posters here (or any of the posters here at all, actually) to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has been cast fraudulently.

SmthBluCitrus
10-16-2008, 09:04 AM
And not to mention that that fraud isn't even "voter fraud", but "voter registration fraud" which would be nearly impossible to actually parlay into real voter fraud.


I'd like any of the conservative posters here (or any of the posters here at all, actually) to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has been cast fraudulently.

Well,this issue already being discussed in the Voter Suppression thread (that thread title probably needs a rename to be more respective of all voting issues since it's taken a deviation), so it should probably be merged.

Until then ... I've already discussed the idea of faulty or questionable voters in a response in that thread on provisional ballots -- second part of the post (http://prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7017147&postcount=195). Like Den pointed out in the post above, it's really hard to turn voter registration fraud into actual voter fraud.

Everything funnels through the county auditor's office where deviations are flagged, checked, and corrected. And, if information (SSN, State ID, Birth date, etc ...) is missing, or wrong, registration get immediately rejected before they even have a chance to be processed.

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 09:09 AM
On SBC's good suggestion, title modified to be more inclusive of all the issues being discussed in this thread.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 09:16 AM
About 200K Ohio voters have records discrepancies
Oct 15 08:18 PM US/Eastern
By TERRY KINNEY

McCain Demands Obama To Explain Relationship With ACORN

CINCINNATI (AP) - Close to one in every three newly registered Ohio voters will end up on court-ordered lists being sent to county election boards because they have some discrepancy in their records, an elections spokesman said Wednesday.

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner estimated that an initial review found that about 200,000 newly registered voters reported information that did not match motor-vehicle or Social Security records, Brunner spokesman Kevin Kidder said. Some discrepancies could be as simple as a misspelling, while others could be more significant.

The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati sided with the Ohio Republican Party on Tuesday and ordered Brunner to set up a system that provides those names to county elections boards. The GOP contends the information will help prevent fraud.

"Things already are in motion to comply," Kidder said. "We're working to establish these processes on how we can make this work. The computer work actually began last week."

About 666,000 Ohioans have registered to vote since January.

Brunner previously cross-checked new-voter registrations with databases run by the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicle and the Social Security Administration and made the results available online, but the 6th Circuit said the information was not accessible in a way that would help county election boards ferret out mismatches.

Brunner, a Democrat, told The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer on Wednesday that she is concerned the court decision is a veiled attempt at disenfranchising voters. Brunner said she'll urge counties not to force these people to use provisional ballots.

The court gave Brunner until Friday to get election boards the information but it was unclear whether that deadline would be met. The court set no penalty for missing the deadline.

County election officials were trying to determine Wednesday how they will respond once they get the information.

"I'm very concerned with these new requirements as we get closer to Election Day," said Steve Harsman, director of the Montgomery County Board of Elections in Dayton. He said his staff already is working 16 hours a day, seven days a week.

"It's clearly going to have an impact in regard to resources we have to expend to resolve discrepancies," said Jeff Hastings, chairman of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections in Cleveland.

"We've had about 100,000 (registrations) since January and of those about 34,000 since the primary. We will do whatever is required of us."

Also Wednesday, the Ohio Republican Party said it has filed public records requests with all 88 counties for copies of forms submitted by newly registered voters, especially those who registered and cast an absentee ballot on the same day during a one-week window earlier this month.

Brunner has said that 13,141 Ohioans registered and voted immediately during the window.

"We've seen reports of fraudulent registrations, and we want to see those forms first-hand," said Jason Mauk, the state GOP's executive director.

Associated Press writers Jim Hannah in Dayton and M.R. Kropko in Cleveland contributed to this report.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93R8IE00&show_article=1

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 09:31 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93R8IE00&show_article=1

And so I say again:

I'd like any of the posters here to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has actually been cast fraudulently.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 09:43 AM
I dont have the article anymore but it was just a few days ago there was a article of one of Accorns phony voters attempting to vote in Ohio early voting


And so I say again:

I'd like any of the posters here to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has actually been cast fraudulently.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 09:47 AM
Investigators probing ACORN have learned that an Ohio man registered to vote several times and cast a bogus ballot with a fake address, officials said yesterday, as they revealed that nearly 4,000 registration applications supplied by the left-leaning activist group were suspect.

The vote of Darnell Nash, one of four people subpoenaed in a Cuyahoga County probe of ACORN's voter-registration activities, was canceled and his case was turned over to local prosecutors and law enforcement, Board of Elections officials said yesterday.

Nash had registered to vote repeatedly from an address that belonged to a legitimately registered voter, officials said during a hearing at which the subpoenaed voters were to testify.

Board officials had contacted Nash this summer, questioned his address and told him to stop repeat registering.

But still, he breezed into Ohio election offices - the state allows early voting for president - reregistered with a fake address and cast a paper ballot, officials said.

"He came in on 9/30 and Mr. Nash again registered to vote at [someone else's] address, and he cast a ballot," said board official Jane Platten.

Nash did not turn up for the hearing.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/news/politics/bogus_voter_booted_amid_probe_of_acorn_133540.htm

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 09:56 AM
Okay.

One.

One single provable case.

Yet look at the numbers being thrown around in the ACORN hysteria.

"200,000"

"666,000" (could it be... Satan?!?")


This is all a big scam, designed to create the illusion of a massive fraudulent effort by Obama and the Democratic Party to rig the election, when in fact no such effort exists. The only thing massive is the size of this red herring, which is designed to a) smear Obama, and b) dry to de-legitimize his presidency in advance of his being elected.

It's total bull****.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 10:02 AM
You asked me to show you 1 and I showed you 1.

You think people are making up the numbers of phony voter registrations? One caught in that article doesn't mean only 1 doing it. In cities that you do not even need an ID I bet many have. Over the years it has been shown that dead people have voted. This doesn't even take in to account the homeless people that have been paid off in cigarettes and booze for their votes previously.

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 10:06 AM
No, I don't think that people are making up phony registration numbers. Although it wouldn't suprise me if they were. I don't know.

But what I do think is that the people who are drumming up this anti-ACORN hysteria are trying to deceive the public, trying to confuse them into believing that voter registration fraud is the same thing as actual voter fraud, which it most certainly is not. And they're trying to trick people into believing that this is some big, evil conspiracy personally conceived and executed by Barack Obama himself, which is absolutely and totally absurd.

YanksFan4Life
10-16-2008, 10:09 AM
And so I say again:

I'd like any of the posters here to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has actually been cast fraudulently.

Seeing as apparently you won't accept anything short of us driving to the election office and making photocopies of classified documents, I don't know how we can do that.

YanksFan4Life
10-16-2008, 10:13 AM
In the end, it's pretty obvious that many of you have double standards when it comes to this. Are either candidates actively involved in voter fraud, fraudulent registration, etc.? I don't think so. However, both parties are.

People have been very willing to accept every instance of rumor and hearsay about the Republican party when it comes to this. Now that stories are coming out the other way, those same people are not so willing to accept the stories.

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 10:39 AM
People have been very willing to accept every instance of rumor and hearsay about the Republican party when it comes to this. Now that stories are coming out the other way, those same people are not so willing to accept the stories.

There's a very good reason for that. And that reason is because there were a ****load of voter suppression activities in 2000 and 2004, whereas it's been proven again and again that the claims of "voter fraud" that have been used to justify purging voter rolls (nearly always disproportionately purging Democratic voters, mind you) have been false and/or extremely exaggerated. When it comes to allegations of voter fraud, the right is the boy who cried wolf.

lakersrock
10-16-2008, 12:57 PM
Hate to break it to ya lakersrock, but John McCain has connections to ACORN, too (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7011915#post7011915).


Not to mention that the only "fraud" perpetuated was against ACORN, and not by them.

And not to mention that that fraud isn't even "voter fraud", but "voter registration fraud" which would be nearly impossible to actually parlay into real voter fraud.


I'd like any of the conservative posters here (or any of the posters here at all, actually) to provide any evidence at all that even a single vote has been cast fraudulently.

Did he train their leaders and donate $800,000 to it? Nope.

No, it wasn't against them. After 30 years of the same crap, they've set a pattern of it being them doing it.

They're having absentee ballots sent to fictious people. How do you know they haven't sent those in?

You've got your proof. Instead of admitting it could be happening all the time, you just say it's that one only and there's no way it's happened any other time too.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 01:05 PM
Whats sad is the elections official (a democrat) in ohio now doesnt want to abide by the courts order to help verify that people are actually who they claim to be????? Are you kidding me? How is making sure that somebody is who they claim to be voter suppression? I have to show ID before I vote to prove that I'm who I claim to be. Am I being suppressed?

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 01:22 PM
Whats sad is the elections official (a democrat) in ohio now doesnt want to abide by the courts order to help verify that people are actually who they claim to be????? Are you kidding me? How is making sure that somebody is who they claim to be voter suppression? I have to show ID before I vote to prove that I'm who I claim to be. Am I being suppressed?


Gov. Crist: False voter registrations not big problem in Florida
Gov. Charlie Crist said he doesn't believe false voter registrations are a serious problem in Florida. And the ACORN group said it is being set up.
BY MARC CAPUTO
mcaputo@MiamiHerald.com

TALLAHASSEE -- Breaking with the talking points of his fellow Republicans in Washington, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist said he does not think voter fraud and the vote-registration group ACORN are a major problem in the Sunshine State.

''I think that there's probably less [fraud] than is being discussed. As we're coming into the closing days of any campaign, there are some who enjoy chaos,'' Crist told reporters.

Crist made his comments as the Republican National Committee hosted a conference call with reporters to tie Democrat Barack Obama to suspicious voter-registration cards submitted by ACORN across the nation and in four Florida counties, including Broward.

In the Broward case, an unknown person tried to re-register a longtime voter named Susan S. Glenckman. Broward officials caught the error in August when it was brought to their attention by ACORN.

During the Wednesday Republican conference call, national party spokesman Danny Diaz focused more on a case in Orange County, where someone used an ACORN-stamped voter-registration card to sign up Mickey Mouse.

But Crist's Republican Secretary of State, Kurt Browning, said he doesn't think ACORN is committing systematic voter fraud. And Crist said that settles the matter because ''I have enormous confidence'' in Browning.

Like ACORN spokesmen, Browning says the false voter registration forms could be blamed on unethical canvassers or on citizens who themselves fill out fictitious voter cards.

REGISTERING VS. VOTING

Elections officials point out that while voter-registration fraud is relatively easy, vote fraud is far more difficult because a criminal would have to evade multiple layers of computer-system and identity checks. They also say the system is not overwhelmed with phony registrations, as Diaz suggested during the conference call.

ACORN's head Florida organizer, Brian Kettenring, went a step further, saying the group was being framed in the Mickey Mouse case -- though he wasn't sure who was behind it.

''We have a substantial reason to believe someone probably got one of our cards and submitted it to the elections office without us knowing,'' Kettenring said.

But Diaz, the national Republican spokesman, said Wednesday that there is no way ACORN is a victim, considering ''the volume'' of registration-fraud complaints and investigations in numerous states.

''When you sign the Dallas Cowboys in Nevada, Mickey Mouse in Florida, a 7-year-old girl in Connecticut,'' Diaz said, ``their argument that this is all some kind of a conspiracy is laughable on its face.''

Diaz, echoing previous statements from the party and John McCain's campaign, said Obama hasn't been honest about his links to ACORN.

Obama told reporters Tuesday that Republicans are engaging in distractions. He said his campaign has nothing to do with ACORN and that ACORN is probably the victim of lazy card gatherers or card signers who make up names or fraudulently fill out registration cards.

ACORN submits all registration cards -- even ones it knows are phony -- because it's illegal to destroy the cards in Florida, and Browning said the group should even turn in incomplete registration cards.

REJECTED

Kettenring said the group has quality-control checks to alert officials of suspicious cards. Although it flagged the Glenckman problem in Broward, ACORN never saw the Mickey Mouse card, Kettenring said.

A housing, poverty and wage advocacy group, ACORN stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. It has signed up more than 150,000 new Florida voters out of the 1.3 million it registered in the past two years nationwide.

Echoing Browning and other county elections supervisors, Mary Cooney, a spokeswoman for Broward County Election Supervisor Brenda Snipes, said the office had a good working relationship with ACORN.

But Cooney said the office began tracking ACORN registrations after noticing about 10 percent of the 16,000 registration cards it submitted were returned by the post office as undeliverable.

Cooney said the returned mail wasn't suspicious, but it was worthy of note. Cooney said that, if the office had suspected real fraud, it would have turned the matter over to the state attorney's office. But it didn't.

Obama had downplayed his ties to ACORN on his ''fight the smears'' website, saying that his most extensive work with ACORN was when he represented the group along with the U.S. Justice Department in a lawsuit. Turns out, he also trained some ACORN community organizers at a seminar, so Obama's website was changed to reflect that he was never ''hired'' as a trainer.

McCain campaign manager Rick Davis made much of that in a conference call last week, urging reporters to ask Obama: ``What were you teaching them? Were you teaching them how to evade the law?''

Davis also said anyone who believes ACORN isn't up to something bad is ``naive.''

But the day before, when Crist was asked whether he had any suspicions or evidence that ACORN was up to anything illegal or unethical, he gave a quick and brief reply: ``No.''miamiherald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/728095.html)

gcoll
10-16-2008, 01:33 PM
In the end, it's pretty obvious that many of you have double standards when it comes to this. Are either candidates actively involved in voter fraud, fraudulent registration, etc.? I don't think so. However, both parties are.

People have been very willing to accept every instance of rumor and hearsay about the Republican party when it comes to this. Now that stories are coming out the other way, those same people are not so willing to accept the stories.

It's called a double standard. It's very fun.

"Give me one single case of voter fraud!!!"

"All you got is one??"

lmao.

a criminal would have to evade multiple layers of computer-system and identity checks.
The same types of identity checks that have been called "suppression" earlier?

Here's the deal. It may not be that this will actually turn into any substantial voter fraud. But, it is a concern. It opens up the possibility that someone MAY try to pull some bull ****. And that's worrying. Again, don't think it'll come to much, but to dismiss it completely I think would be wrong.

But the double standard is pretty fun.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 01:35 PM
Obama told reporters Tuesday that Republicans are engaging in distractions. He said his campaign has nothing to do with ACORN and that ACORN is probably the victim of lazy card gatherers or card signers who make up names or fraudulently fill out registration cards.

Who did his campaign give $860,000 to? Who did they say originally it was for lighting and then later admit it was not for lighting but to "get out the vote"?

ink
10-16-2008, 01:36 PM
In the end, it's pretty obvious that many of you have double standards when it comes to this. Are either candidates actively involved in voter fraud, fraudulent registration, etc.? I don't think so. However, both parties are.

People have been very willing to accept every instance of rumor and hearsay about the Republican party when it comes to this. Now that stories are coming out the other way, those same people are not so willing to accept the stories.

Where was the outrage from the right in Florida, 2000 or Ohio, 2004? Why are we only hearing the cries of injustice now that they're losing? I routinely see those issues not just rationalized away but routinely mocked by those on the right. Let's face it, the country is seriously split. Voting practices should be universal. If the country doesn't have the will to clean up all of the loopholes to voting it's really hard to have any pity at all for anyone any more. To say much better standards are needed is the understatement of the year.

Manos
10-16-2008, 01:39 PM
Enjoy. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e43_1224086229&p=1)

Watch this one from 1:52 to 2:08 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee1_1223921467).

gcoll
10-16-2008, 01:44 PM
Where was the outrage from the right in Florida, 2000 or Ohio, 2004?
About what?

Why are we only hearing the cries of injustice now that they're losing?
Doesn't it go the same the other way? I mean...the left certainly did a lot of complaining about 2000 and 2004, and I figure this year, there won't be as many complaints.

It's kind of like in sports....when you're down, that ref sure does suck.

SmthBluCitrus
10-16-2008, 01:53 PM
ACORN and Vote Fraud

McCain made some dire claims about a liberal group he said was out to steal the election:


McCain: We need to know the full extent of Sen. Obama's relationship with ACORN, who is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy.

It's true that the voter registration wing of the Association of Community Organizers for Reform Now has run into trouble in several states. ACORN employees have been investigated and in some cases indicted for voter registration fraud. Most recently, more than 2,000 registrations in Lake County, Ind., have turned out to be falsified.

But does this constitute "destroying the fabric of democracy"? More like destroying the fabric of work ethic. There's been no evidence that the ACORN employees who submitted fraudulent forms have been paving the way for illegal voting. Rather, they're trying to get paid for doing no work.

Dan Satterberg, the Republican prosecuting attorney in King County, Wash., where the first ACORN case was prosecuted, said:


Satterberg: [A] joint federal and state investigation has determined that this
scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting.

Instead, the defendants cheated their employer. ... It was hardly a sophisticated plan: The defendants simply realized that making up names was easier than actually canvassing the streets looking for unregistered voters. ...

[It] appears that the employees of ACORN were not performing the work that they were being paid for, and to some extent, ACORN is a victim of employee theft.

The $8-an-hour employees were charged with providing false information on a voter registration, and in one case with making a false statement to a public official. ACORN was fined for showing insufficient oversight, but it was not charged with masterminding any kind of fraud.

FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html)

ink
10-16-2008, 01:53 PM
About what?


Thank you for proving my point.

ink
10-16-2008, 01:55 PM
FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html)

Dang those fact checkers. :mad: They ruin every party.

Just to repeat:


Dan Satterberg, the Republican prosecuting attorney in King County, Wash., where the first ACORN case was prosecuted, said:

Quote:
Satterberg: [A] joint federal and state investigation has determined that this
scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting.

Instead, the defendants cheated their employer. ... It was hardly a sophisticated plan: The defendants simply realized that making up names was easier than actually canvassing the streets looking for unregistered voters. ...

[It] appears that the employees of ACORN were not performing the work that they were being paid for, and to some extent, ACORN is a victim of employee theft.

gcoll
10-16-2008, 01:55 PM
Thank you for proving my point.

I meant more about the Diebold machines, or fraudulent voting, or suppression? I knew the subject...just not the exact details. What was I supposed to be outraged about?

My level of "anger" if you'd call it that...is about the same level about this ACORN story as it was about the Diebold machines, and the lack of a paper trail. I find it worrisome, though I don't think it'll come to all that much in the way of actual fraud...it still should be looked into.

ink
10-16-2008, 02:05 PM
My level of "anger" if you'd call it that...is about the same level about this ACORN story as it was about the Diebold machines, and the lack of a paper trail. I find it worrisome, though I don't think it'll come to all that much in the way of actual fraud...it still should be looked into.

I agree with that. But throughout this campaign you've been a lot more moderate than a lot of McCain supporters. You're right. All of this stuff needs to be kept in perspective and investigated properly. It's also important to pay attention to facts like the ones we have been posting from fact-checking sites.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-16-2008, 02:17 PM
Officials: FBI investigates ACORN for voter fraud
Oct 16 01:25 PM US/Eastern
By LARA JAKES JORDAN
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI is investigating whether the community activist group ACORN helped foster voter registration fraud around the nation before the presidential election.

A senior law enforcement official confirmed the investigation to The Associated Press on Thursday. A second senior law enforcement official says the FBI was looking at results of recent raids on ACORN offices in several states for any evidence of a coordinated national scam.

Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Justice Department regulations forbid discussing ongoing investigations particularly so close to an election.

ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, says it has registered 1.3 million young people, minorities and poor and working-class voters—most of whom tend to be Democrats.

Republican accusations about the group were raised during Wednesday's presidential debate between Democrat Barack Obama and GOP candidate John McCain.

Some ACORN employees have been accused of submitting false voter registration forms—including some signed `Mickey Mouse' or other fictitious characters.

Those voter registration cards have become the focus of fraud investigations in Nevada, Connecticut, Missouri and at least five other states. Election officials in Ohio and North Carolina also recently questioned the group's voter forms.

ACORN has said the "vast majority" of its workers are conscientious, but some might have turned in duplicate applications or provided fake information to pad their pay. Workers caught submitting false information have been fired, ACORN officials say.

ACORN says laws in a number of states require it to submit all registration cards it collects even dubious ones, so its workers segregate applications with missing, suspicious or false information and flag them so state election officials can quickly check them further.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93RNJOG2&show_article=1

DenButsu
10-16-2008, 02:33 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93RNJOG2&show_article=1

Voter registration fraud, SLY. Not voter fraud.


And gcoll, laugh all you want, man. But seriously - one ****ing case?!? That's it?!? So what's the fuss? Sure I asked for "one" and got "one", but like I said, when people are throwing numbers around in the hundreds of thousands with the intent to freak people out that massive voter fraud is actually being perpetrated, if one freakin case of actual voter fraud is the best they can back up their hysteria campaign with, that's what you should be laughing at, and not my post.

ari1013
10-16-2008, 07:46 PM
Voter registration fraud, SLY. Not voter fraud.


And gcoll, laugh all you want, man. But seriously - one ****ing case?!? That's it?!? So what's the fuss? Sure I asked for "one" and got "one", but like I said, when people are throwing numbers around in the hundreds of thousands with the intent to freak people out that massive voter fraud is actually being perpetrated, if one freakin case of actual voter fraud is the best they can back up their hysteria campaign with, that's what you should be laughing at, and not my post.
Anything to try to discredit the future Obama Administration.

Manos
10-17-2008, 07:36 AM
Obama campaign looks to get out the criminal vote (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/16/obama-organizer-targets-the-big-house/)...:clap:

DenButsu
10-17-2008, 08:35 AM
Obama campaign looks to get out the criminal vote (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/16/obama-organizer-targets-the-big-house/)...:clap:

Did you even read the article you linked to?

It says right there:


UPDATE: The Obama campaign spokesman in Michigan emphasized that Theresa Collins is not affiliated with the campaign and that it had no knowledge of that request to the Corrections Department.

gcoll
10-17-2008, 11:30 AM
And gcoll, laugh all you want, man. But seriously - one ****ing case?!? That's it?!? So what's the fuss? Sure I asked for "one" and got "one", but like I said, when people are throwing numbers around in the hundreds of thousands with the intent to freak people out that massive voter fraud is actually being perpetrated, if one freakin case of actual voter fraud is the best they can back up their hysteria campaign with, that's what you should be laughing at, and not my post.
It was more that you asked for one, and got one. Thought that was funny.

Voter fraud is probably a bit tough to prove. I believe some ACORN employees have been convicted of fraud somewhere....don't remember the details of the story, but Megan Kelly told me it....and she's hot, so I believe her.

Also to Ink. Like I said. The losing team is the one that complains about the refs.

ink
10-17-2008, 11:54 AM
It was more that you asked for one, and got one. Thought that was funny.

Voter fraud is probably a bit tough to prove. I believe some ACORN employees have been convicted of fraud somewhere....don't remember the details of the story, but Megan Kelly told me it....and she's hot, so I believe her.

Also to Ink. Like I said. The losing team is the one that complains about the refs.

There's truth to that. But the electoral system is pretty dysfunctional. It needs an overhaul. And I think it badly needs to be standardized.

gcoll
10-17-2008, 12:13 PM
There's truth to that. But the electoral system is pretty dysfunctional. It needs an overhaul. And I think it badly needs to be standardized.

What type of overhaul? Go to a direct vote? Get rid of the electoral college completely or just fine tune it?

ink
10-17-2008, 12:17 PM
What type of overhaul? Go to a direct vote? Get rid of the electoral college completely or just fine tune it?

No. No. Just the mechanics. Voting technology, procedures, etc. I've seen elections happen in a few different countries and voting methods are completely standardized and uniform.

YanksFan4Life
10-17-2008, 01:35 PM
I propose the following constitutional amendment. Hell, we may even get it passed with the Ds probably getting a supermajority soon!

Fair Election: An election where the Democrat wins. People can vote in as many states and as many times as they want without ID so long as they are voting for the Democrat. If the Republican won, he himself went to each booth and tampered with the vote.

YanksFan4Life
10-17-2008, 01:37 PM
No. No. Just the mechanics. Voting technology, procedures, etc. I've seen elections happen in a few different countries and voting methods are completely standardized and uniform.

I agree with you here. There needs to be a standardized voting procedure.

That being said, I absolutely think that people that are too ****ing stupid to follow an arrow half a cm to the right deserve to not have their vote counted the right way. Yeah, I'm referring to butterfly ballots.

gcoll
10-17-2008, 01:37 PM
No. No. Just the mechanics. Voting technology, procedures, etc. I've seen elections happen in a few different countries and voting methods are completely standardized and uniform.

I'd be cool with that.

Basically, have a national voting machine used in all states. And a national procedure for handling absentee ballots, etc. etc.

bosox1899
10-17-2008, 03:01 PM
I propose the following constitutional amendment. Hell, we may even get it passed with the Ds probably getting a supermajority soon!

Fair Election: An election where the Democrat wins. People can vote in as many states and as many times as they want without ID so long as they are voting for the Democrat. If the Republican won, he himself went to each booth and tampered with the vote.

haha I hope your joking that would be the worse proposal i ever seen :D

QuietWyatt
10-18-2008, 02:54 AM
Obama camp calls for special prosecutor in fraud investigation

From Martina Stewart
CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Obama campaign announced Friday that it is asking Attorney General Michael Mukasey to turn over any investigations of voter fraud or voter suppression to Special Prosecutor Nora Dannehy.

Dannehy is also the special prosecutor recently appointed to investigate the U.S. attorney firing scandal.

It's the latest salvo in an escalating war over allegations of possible voter irregularities during the upcoming presidential election.

"What they're actually about is the unprecedented effort to essentially sap the American people of confidence in the voting process," Bob Bauer, the Obama campaign's general counsel, said Friday on a conference call.

Bauer said partisan politics was behind Thursday's leak from senior governmental officials about a preliminary FBI investigation into the voter registration activities of ACORN, the embattled community organizing group that has become the focus of Republican efforts to highlight possible fraud as the election approaches. Watch the latest report on ACORN's voter registration efforts »

"ACORN is a tool for attacking voters," Bauer said.

"We need to have these matters removed from the day-to-day department's direct control and put into the special prosecutor's independent hands," Bauer told reporters Friday. "She should have responsibility for reviewing any and all matters involving allegations of fraud and suppression in this election."

The McCain campaign suggested that Obama and his campaign were engaging in partisan politics by requesting the special prosecutor's involvement. In a statement issued Friday night, McCain-Palin spokesman Ben Porritt called Obama's request "absurd" and said it was an attempt to "criminalize political discourse."

"Rest assured that, despite these threats, the McCain-Palin campaign will continue to address the serious issue of voter registration fraud by ACORN and other partisan groups, and compliance by states with the Help America Vote Act's requirement of matching new voter registrations with state data bases to prevent voter fraud," Porritt added.

Since ACORN's extensive voter registration drive ended recently, allegations of voter registration fraud relating to the group's activities have surfaced in several states. The McCain campaign recently targeted ACORN's ties to Obama, and Republicans in Congress called for a federal investigation of the group and an end to any federal funding going to the group. Watch how the GOP is trying to tie ACORN to Obama »

McCain personally called for an investigation into ACORN last week during a campaign event. At the final presidential debate, he also said ACORN "is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy."

At issue is ACORN's practice of hiring local residents to register potential voters. Some of those hired have filled out registration forms themselves and handed in forms for non-existent people. ACORN says it has fired people for that offense. Watch how ACORN is responding to controversy »

Voter registration fraud is not the same as voter fraud, in which individuals attempt to fraudulently cast ballots. Voter registration fraud leads to inflated voter rolls, but has little effect on voter fraud.


The Obama campaign has said that ACORN has no role in its general election voter registration efforts, and that it has never paid ACORN to register voters. The Obama campaign hired an offshoot of ACORN during the primary to canvas neighborhoods seeking votes.

In a statement issued Thursday, ACORN said it was confident it "would be exonerated" in any federal investigation into its voter registration activities.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/17/obama.acorn/?iref=hpmostpop

ink
10-18-2008, 02:13 PM
Voter fraud is rare in the United States, according to a 2007 report by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. Based on reviews of voter fraud claims at the federal and state level, the center's report asserted most problems were caused by things like technological glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters and by election officials.

"It is more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than he will impersonate another voter at the polls," the report said.

Alex Keyssar, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, calls the current controversy "chapter 22 in a drama that's been going on awhile. The pattern is that nothing much ever comes from this. There have been no known cases of people voting fraudulently."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxjAsAV-4bVaxvkleyrVdeKz2cmgD93T13EO0

ink
10-18-2008, 02:22 PM
On Friday, Obama's legal counsel, Robert Bauer, wrote Attorney General Michael Mukasey, charging that the inquiry is politically motivated and that it risks repeating the 2007 scandal over the Bush administration's politicization of the Justice Department.

Bauer asked Mukasey to broaden a special prosecutor's investigation to examine the origin of the ACORN inquiry.

A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment, except to say: "We will review the letter."

Earlier Friday, ACORN told McClatchy that one of its senior staffers in Cleveland had received a death threat and that its Boston and Seattle offices had been vandalized sometime Thursday, reflecting the mounting tensions over the group's role in registering 1.3 million mostly poor and minority Americans to vote.

ACORN attorneys drafted a letter alerting the FBI and the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division of the incidents, said Brian Kettenring, a Florida-based spokesman for the group.

Kettenring said that a senior ACORN staffer in Cleveland, after appearing on television this week, got an e-mail that said she "is going to have her life ended." A female staffer in Providence, R.I., got a threatening call from someone who said words to the effect of "We know you get off work at 9," then uttered racial epithets, he said.

McClatchy is withholding the women's names because of the threats.

Separately, vandals broke into the group's Boston and Seattle offices and stole computers, Kettenring said.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/730941.html

ink
10-18-2008, 02:25 PM
This article, by Robert F. Kennedy Jr, just came out in Rolling Stone. Highly recommended ...


Block the Vote
Will the GOP's campaign to deter new voters and discard Democratic ballots determine the next president?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. & GREG PALAST
Posted Oct 30, 2008 11:10 AM

These days, the old west rail hub of Las Vegas, New Mexico, is little more than a dusty economic dead zone amid a boneyard of bare mesas. In national elections, the town overwhelmingly votes Democratic: More than 80 percent of all residents are Hispanic, and one in four lives below the poverty line. On February 5th, the day of the Super Tuesday caucus, a school-bus driver named Paul Maez arrived at his local polling station to cast his ballot. To his surprise, Maez found that his name had vanished from the list of registered voters, thanks to a statewide effort to deter fraudulent voting. For Maez, the shock was especially acute: He is the supervisor of elections in Las Vegas.

Complete article (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/23638322/block_the_vote)

SLY WILLIAMS
10-18-2008, 06:21 PM
Mentally challenged man says his vote wasn't right

By Jennifer Emert - bio | email

October 14, 2008

ALBANY, GA (WALB) - There are allegations of voter fraud, as a Dougherty County family claims the vote of a mentally challenged relative was stolen.

They say the adult day rehab program where Jack Justice attends took him to vote, without the family's permission. What's worse is Justice says the person helping him wouldn't cast the ballot for his choice for President.

Jack Justice has been voting since he turned 18. Typically his family takes him to their neighborhood precinct. This time Primus Industries, his adult day rehab program, took him to vote. His family was shocked, but what shocked them more was that Jack claims that his aide commandeered his vote.

"They told me to vote for Obama, I said no I wanted to vote for McCain," said Jack Justice, a voter.

Jack Justice says the person helping him, selected Obama's name. His sister says the family is often asked to sign a permission slips for trips, but for this they were never notified.

"No permission slips, no nothing, he just came home and said he had gone," said Nancy Justice, Jack's sister.

We questioned election officials about the procedure, who say they recall the group coming in to vote and an aide was helping the individuals, but they must sign an oath that they'll cast the ballot however the voter prefers.

"So it plainly says the person should tell the person how they want to vote and then they help them mark it," said Carolyn Hatcher, Dougherty County Elections Supervisor.

Election officials say they can't follow people into the booth to see what happens. We contacted the Albany Area Community Service Board who oversees Primus Industries. They say they do their best to protect the safety, treatment, and care of the individuals in their programs. They also said they'll look into the allegations and conduct an internal investigation if necessary. Nancy Justice is just upset the incident happened.

"For me it was kind of pushing it to the limit there to get him to vote for someone in particular who they wanted him to vote for," said Nancy Justice.

Election officials say the family's only option is to file a challenge to the election results. The Justice's are considering their options.

Advance voting will begin this Monday at the Riverfront Resource Center on Pine Avenue. Advance voted will run through October 31st. No one will be able to vote the Monday prior to election day.
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?s=9177991

FOBolous
10-18-2008, 08:33 PM
and will ACORN's mistakes effect the outcome of the election? the answer is no for both questions. This is just another controvery created by the McCain campaign to distract Americans from the real issues that's facing America.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081018/ap_on_el_ge/fraud_or_foolishness


ACORN controversy: Voter fraud or mudslinging?
By DEBORAH HASTINGS, AP National Writer Deborah Hastings, Ap National Writer Sat Oct 18, 12:37 pm ET
The stories are almost comical: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck, registered to vote on Nov. 4. The entire starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys football team, signed up to go the polls — in Nevada.

But no one in either presidential campaign is laughing. Not publicly, anyway.

Republicans, led by John McCain, are alleging widespread voter fraud. The Democrats and Barack Obama say the controversy is preposterous and is just political mudslinging.

In the middle is the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, known as ACORN, a grass-roots community group that has led liberal causes since it formed in 1970. This year, ACORN hired more than 13,000 part-time workers and sent them out in 21 states to sign up voters in minority and poor neighborhoods.

They submitted 1.3 million registration cards to local election officials.

Along the way, bogus ones appeared — signed in the names of cartoon characters, professional football players and scores of others bearing the same handwriting. And in the past few days, those phony registrations have exploded into Republican condemnations of far-ranging misconduct, and a relatively obscure community activist group took a starring role, right behind Joe the Plumber, in the final presidential debate.

Looking beyond the smoke and fire, the raging argument boils down to essentially this:

Is ACORN, according to McCain, perpetuating voter fraud that could be "destroying the fabric of democracy"? Or are Republicans trying to keep the disadvantaged, who tend to be Democrats, from casting ballots in a hotly contested presidential race that has drawn record numbers of new voters?

By legal definition, to commit voter fraud means a person would have to present some kind of documentation at the polls — a driver's license, a phone bill or another form of ID — that bears the name of Mickey Mouse, for example. To do so risks a fine and imprisonment under state laws.

Submitting fake registration cards is another matter. Local law enforcement agencies in about a dozen states are investigating fake registrations submitted by ACORN workers. Late last week, The Associated Press reported the FBI will be reviewing those cases.

Accusations of stolen votes have a long history in presidential elections. In the 2000 recount debacle, Republicans claimed illegal ballots were cast. Democrats contended that legal ballots were thrown out. In 2004, when Ohio gave the presidency to George W. Bush, Democrats charged that long lines and malfunctioning machines in that state led to an inaccurate count.

But in this contest, involving the first African-American in American history with a real chance at becoming president, the vitriol is particularly pointed.

"This is all just one big head-fake," said Tova Wang of the government watchdog group Common Cause. "What silliness this is, at this point. It's all about creating this perception that there is a tremendous problem with voter fraud in this country, and it's not true."

On Friday, during a campaign appearance, Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin repeated McCain's recent claims that Obama has close ties to ACORN.

"You deserve to know," Palin told thousands in a park north of Cincinnati. "This group needs to learn that you here in Ohio won't let them turn the Buckeye State into the Acorn State."

Obama helped represent ACORN in a successful 1995 suit against the state of Illinois, which forced enactment of the so-called motor-voter law, making it easier for people to register vote. Obama said this week that he had "nothing to do with" ACORN's massive voter registration drive.

ACORN spokesman Brian Kettenring retaliated this week in a series of conference calls and interviews. "What we're seeing is the manufacture of a crisis, and attempts to smear Sen. Obama with it. It gives you an excuse should you lose or if there's a contested outcome of the election."

Voter fraud is rare in the United States, according to a 2007 report by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. Based on reviews of voter fraud claims at the federal and state level, the center's report asserted most problems were caused by things like technological glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters and by election officials.

"It is more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than he will impersonate another voter at the polls," the report said.

Alex Keyssar, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, calls the current controversy "chapter 22 in a drama that's been going on awhile. The pattern is that nothing much ever comes from this. There have been no known cases of people voting fraudulently."

"What we've seen," Keyssar said, "is sloppiness and someone's idea of a stupid joke, like registering as Donald Duck."

ACORN officials have repeatedly claimed that their own quality control workers were the first to discover problematic ballots. In every state investigating bad registrations, ACORN tipped off local officials to bogus or incomplete cards, spokesman Kettenring said.

Many states require that all registrations be submitted to local voting officials so that election directors are in charge of vetting problem ballots, not the groups collecting them.

Part-time ACORN workers receive one day of training and are paid $8 an hour to collect signatures, according to Kettenring. He blamed bogus cards on cheating and lazy employees trying to make a buck for doing nothing.

When caught, Kettenring said, those workers are fired. The group is in the process of tallying the number of bad cards ACORN flagged for election officials, he said. Kettenring said he doubted the percentage of such registrations would reach 2 percent.

But Republicans say any number of fake registrations is unacceptable and could affect the November election.

Signing up voters is a small part of ACORN activities. The group frequently leads challenges to minimum wage laws, predatory mortgage lending in poor and working-class neighborhoods and immigration policies.

Controversy is nothing new. Its leaders are currently locked in a legal dispute stemming from allegations that the brother of the group's founder misappropriated nearly $1 million of the nonprofit's money several years ago.

Since the 2004 election, ex-employees have been convicted of submitting false registrations in states including Florida and Missouri.

"There are certainly problems and I don't think anyone disagrees on that," said Wang of Common Cause. "But it doesn't get reported that ACORN finds these registrations errors themselves. They flag them as being no good, but they have to turn them in anyway."

"They don't get processed," she said. "And Mickey Mouse is not going to vote."

___

ink
10-18-2008, 09:37 PM
Answer to the thread title ...

No.

In answer to other McCain campaign strategies ... depending on the direction of the wind ...

Is Obama a terrorist? No.
Is Obama going to raise your taxes? No.
Is Obama lying to everyone? No.
Is Obama a socialist? No.
Are the conspiracy theories correct? No.
Are the Robocalls patriotic? No.

Is John McCain losing the election? Yes.

hoosiercubsfan
10-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Answer to the thread title ...

No.

1. Is Obama a terrorist? No.
2. Is Obama going to raise your taxes? No.
3. Is Obama lying to everyone? No.
4. Is Obama a socialist? No.
5. Are the conspiracy theories correct? No.
6. Are the Robocalls patriotic? No.

7. Is John McCain losing the election? Yes.

2. debatable
3. He is a politician they all lie to you so I disagree.
4. Is he a card carrying socialist? no but his ideas on income redistribution is a socialistic concept. He keeps claiming to give 95% of Americans a tax cut which is at best a half truth since the lower 47% of taxpayers do not pay income tax to begin with. It would be more of a correct statement that he would be giving 95% of people a tax credit but that just doesn't sound as pretty now does it.

ink
10-18-2008, 10:16 PM
Let's put it this way: is the McCain campaign so desperate they're resorting to tactics that:

1. imply that a presidential candidate has ties with active terrorists? Yes, that is pretty much the implication that is being attempted in their smear campaign.

2. distort and confuse the Acorn situation? Yes, they are making it sound as if there is widespread voter fraud. The facts are that there are few if ANY recorded examples of voter fraud. It is in FACT, Acorn itself that is being defrauded by employees who are not doing their work properly and trying to get paid for ludicrous registrations. What's more, the GOP has long done things to suppress the vote in states with high concentrations of African-American voters. Nice sleight of hand, but ugly politics.

In both cases - aspersions of terrorism and aspersions of the Obama campaign being connected to voter fraud, they are slandering a presidential candidate.

These are incredibly serious allegations and will leave a stain on McCain's career.

DenButsu
10-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Ex-Voting Rights Chief: ACORN Probe Sign Of DOJ Politicization

A former top Department of Justice voting rights official -- who once worked with John McCain in defense of the senator's campaign-finance reform bill -- has added his name to the growing chorus (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/obama_camp_connects_acorn_prob.php) that is denouncing the department's investigation of ACORN as a shameful and inappropriate politicization of Justice along the lines of the US attorney firings.

Speaking to TPMmuckraker, Gerry Hebert described the investigation, word of which was leaked off the record to the Associated Press less than three weeks before the election, as "a continuation of injecting DOJ into what has clearly become a political issue."

He continued: "That's really not the proper role for the DOJ, and why their policies counsel otherwise."

To demonstrate that point, Hebert provided TPMmuckraker with a copy of the department's Manual on Federal Prosecution of Election Offenses.

Under a section headlined "Investigative Considerations in Election Fraud Cases", the manual reads:


When investigating election fraud, three considerations that are absent from most criminal investigations must be kept in mind: (1) respect for the primary role of the states in administering the voting process, (2) an awareness of the role of the election in the governmental process, and (3) sensitivity to the exercise of First Amendment rights in the election context. As a result there are limitations on various investigative steps in an election fraud case.

In most cases, election-related documents should not be taken from the custody of local election administrators until the election to which they pertain has been certified, and the time for contesting the election results has expired. This avoids interfering with the governmental processes affected by the election

Another limitation affects voter interviews. Election fraud cases often depend on the testimony of individual voters whose votes were co-opted in one way or another. But in most cases voters should not be interviewed, or other voter-related investigation done, until after the election is over. Such overt investigative steps may chill legitimate voting activities. They are also likely to be perceived by voters and candidates as an intrusion into the election. Indeed, the fact of a federal criminal investigation may itself become an issue in the election.

Although it is unclear whether the FBI has taken information or interviewed voters, Hebert argued that the new ACORN investigation clearly violates the manual's guidelines, both in terms of its timing -- initiated so close to election day -- and in terms of the off-the-record leak by which it was publicized.

Hebert served 21 years at DOJ's criminal division, including a stint as acting head of the voting rights section. He left in 1994 and now heads a public interest legal non-profit. In 2003, he represented (http://www.democracy21.org/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC=%7B359B432A-0915-495A-BFBC-36A20DDE62D4%7D&DE=%7B90B7C38B-330E-443B-9855-4464B73D6B3D%7D)McCain and Sen. Russ Feingold, when the campaign-finance reform legislation authored by the two senators was challenged by conservative activist groups.

Hebert, noting that he had been at DOJ during the administrations of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, added: "During the twenty-one years I was there, even though there were political appointees who I worked with, never did we inject partisan considerations into our law-enforcement responsibilities. That has clearly not been the case in recent years under this administration. And it's going to take a long time to cleanse the Department of Justice."

The Obama campaign (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/obama_camp_connects_acorn_prob.php), House Judiciary chair John Conyers (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/conyers_on_fbiacorn_probe.php), and, in an interview with TPMmuckraker (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/iglesias_im_astounded_by_dojs.php), former US attorney David Iglesias, have all also connected the FBI's ACORN investigation to the kind of politicization exposed in the firings saga.tpm (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/ex_doj_voting_rights_chief_its.php)



This whole "ACORN is perpetuating voter fraud!" campaign is just a big scam designed to delegitimize the validity of Obama's election, the legitimacy of his candidacy, and the validity of the electoral process itself. With the involvement of the DOJ now, it's actually illegal, and runs directly against the grain of a free, thriving democracy in which people should be encouraged to vote rather than discouraged from voting.

DenButsu
10-18-2008, 10:48 PM
Deters subpoenas voter records


Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters, who serves as John McCain’s Southwest Ohio campaign chairman, has requested personal information for some individuals who registered and immediately cast a ballot during a weeklong period that ended earlier this month.
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Deters issued a subpoena on Friday for complete registration records for roughly 40 percent of the 671 voters who registered and cast a ballot between Sept. 30, when early voting began, and Oct. 6, the deadline for voter registration.

The subpoena, obtained by The Associated Press, is part of a grand jury investigation initiated by Deters in the county.

“We’ve had widespread complaints of fraud but we do not discuss investigations at all,” Deters said. He said the complaints came from “a variety of sources.”

It was unclear why the subpoena – which also calls upon the county’s election director and deputy director to testify before the grand jury – doesn’t ask for records of all voters from the weeklong window.

Under a public records request, the Ohio GOP has asked for records of all voters who cast a ballot during the window in all 88 Ohio counties – but those records won’t include personal information because the request doesn’t carry the power of a subpoena.

The records handed over as a result of Deters’ subpoena would be unredacted.

Ohioans voting early have to provide either their driver’s license number or the last four digits of their Social Security number.

Ohio Republicans have initiated numerous court fights, arguing that Democratic Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner isn’t doing enough to prevent voting fraud.

Democrats have accused Republicans of going on “fishing expeditions” that would have the effect of suppressing turnout in a year in which Democratic enthusiasm is running high.

The state and its 20 electoral votes are considered a must-win for McCain, the Republican presidential nominee. Polls show McCain and Democrat Barack Obama running even in Ohio.

The fraud allegations that led to the Hamilton County grand jury investigation did not come from local election officials, said county elections board Deputy Director John Williams.

Brunner has ordered counties to immediately investigate any claims of fraud, and report the findings to county prosecutors and to her office.

“This office is unaware of any specific allegations of illegal voting out of that county,” said Brunner spokesman Jeff Ortega.

Williams said his office has received numerous calls from concerned citizens about the potential for voter fraud, and has heard anecdotal reports.

“There’s a lot of energy out there on this issue,” Williams said. “It’s not something that we’re focusing on in terms of any investigation here.” He said the county, like other counties, has received false registrations from the group ACORN, or Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, but believes that isn’t connected to what Deters is investigating.

Williams said he doesn’t know what spurred the investigation.

Ohio State University law professor Dan Tokaji, an elections expert, said Deters’ action is troubling.

“This is extremely worrisome when a partisan official engages in conduct that could reasonably be interpreted as voter intimidation and voter suppression,” Tokaji said. “This appears to be part of a concerted strategy on the part of some elements of the Republican Party to exaggerate voting fraud in an effort to suppress participation.”cincinnati.com (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081018/NEWS01/310180031/1055/NEWS)


John McCain: Anti-Democratic Voter Suppression First. Country Second.

gcoll
10-19-2008, 12:19 AM
Is Acorn committing voter fraud? No.

They are committing voter registration fraud...which could lead to voter fraud. That's the worry. Although I'm not all that worried about it.

I doubt there's any real measurable impact. Republicans have "OMG VOTER FRAUD!!!!" Democrats have "OMG VOTER SUPPRESSION!!!" both are over hyped, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep an eye on it.

DenButsu
10-19-2008, 12:43 AM
Is Acorn committing voter fraud? No.

They are committing voter registration fraud...which could lead to voter fraud. That's the worry. Although I'm not all that worried about it.

I doubt there's any real measurable impact. Republicans have "OMG VOTER FRAUD!!!!" Democrats have "OMG VOTER SUPPRESSION!!!" both are over hyped, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep an eye on it.

ACORN isn't committing voter fraud as much as they're victims themselves of voter fraud. They've paid people to register voters, and people have done false voter registrations in order to basically steal money from ACORN.

And the voter suppression hype is well deserved. They're not just trying to eliminate voter fraud. They're trying to keep legitimate voters from exercising their constitutionally guaranteed right. It's undemocratic.

DenButsu
10-19-2008, 01:09 AM
And the real fun hasn't really even gotten started yet:


But it looks like Wisconsin Republicans are going to be going all out in their voter suppression efforts. The Wisconsin GOP is currently recruiting (http://www.wisn.com/video/17726664/index.html)"Milwaukee area veterans, policeman, security personnel and firefighters to work as poll watchers on election day at inner city polling places."tpm (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/238058.php)


And let's be real clear about what this is. This is a thug squad of tough white dudes with attitudes like this (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=lPg0VCg4AEQ&eurl=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/) who are going to polling places with large black populations to intimidate the voters with implied (or actual) threats of physical violence.

When I say the tactics of the GOP are un-American, it's not hyperbole, and I'm not exaggerating. They are operating in direct opposition to the principles of a free democracy.


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edit - and just so it's clear, no I'm not saying that "veterans, policeman, security personnel and firefighters" are "thugs". I'm saying that what the Wisconsin GOP is looking for are the biggest, most burly, thuggish types they can find - physical intimidation is what this is all about.

gcoll
10-19-2008, 01:21 AM
edit - and just so it's clear, no I'm not saying that "veterans, policeman, security personnel and firefighters" are "thugs".
You are. And you accused them of being racist.


physical intimidation is what this is all about.
Personally, I'd be intimidated to be one of those poll watchers. In the inner city....white....just kind of hanging out......could be bad news for me. Especially at night.