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SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 07:52 PM
Interesting article from Time about what each candidates respective VP picks says about them.

Mods, feel free to merge into another thread. I just didn't know where to post this.


How McCain Makes Obama Conservative
By JOE KLEIN

Both the major-party candidates for President have now made their first major decision — on a running mate — and I can't remember a year when the selections were more revealing about the character of the candidates. What we have is a choice between a conservative and a radical.


Time (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1838571,00.html)

ink
09-04-2008, 08:34 PM
It's true that Obama has been campaigning as the "safe" candidate. He's done everything to be as comprehensive in his policies and platforms as he can. But he's not getting much credit for that. He's put so much into proving that he's not a risk that he actually risks not engaging people.

McCain has far less substance but his love of risk has brought Palin into the race. I really can't understand why America keeps embracing risk-takers - Bush, McCain (maybe not so embraced), and now Palin.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 08:55 PM
It's true that Obama has been campaigning as the "safe" candidate. He's done everything to be as comprehensive in his policies and platforms as he can. But he's not getting much credit for that. He's put so much into proving that he's not a risk that he actually risks not engaging people.

McCain has far less substance but his love of risk has brought Palin into the race. I really can't understand why America keeps embracing risk-takers - Bush, McCain (maybe not so embraced), and now Palin.

McCain had a definite disadvantage as opposed to Obama prior to the VP pick. Obama was the darling of the talk show circuit getting treated with kid gloves by the press who where in turn pounding on Hillary. I know there will be people that don't agree with me here so to save argument we will just agree to disagree on that point. McCain was kind of viewed as a so so candidate by the base. So Obama was able to pick a nice safe pick was easy for him to do. He did not have to do something to bring the base to him they where already there.

So with the pick of Palin he effectively energized the base much like Obama has already done for his campaign. So that has made it a race again because prior to this it was going to be a landslide for Obama. McCain had to make a pick that would grab the headlines back. Picking Pawlenty or Romney would have been viewed with a collective yawn. But with bringing in Palin he set the media on fire with her pick. It was a long shot for sure but to this point it looks like a stroke of genius TO THIS POINT. She has the ability to strike a cord with people from middle of America. And that is what is going to be needed for McCain to win the election along with the base that she was able to energize.

ink
09-04-2008, 08:58 PM
McCain had a definite disadvantage as opposed to Obama prior to the VP pick. Obama was the darling of the talk show circuit getting treated with kid gloves by the press who where in turn pounding on Hillary. I know there will be people that don't agree with me here so to save argument we will just agree to disagree on that point. McCain was kind of viewed as a so so candidate by the base. So Obama was able to pick a nice safe pick was easy for him to do. He did not have to do something to bring the base to him they where already there.

So with the pick of Palin he effectively energized the base much like Obama has already done for his campaign. So that has made it a race again because prior to this it was going to be a landslide for Obama. McCain had to make a pick that would grab the headlines back. Picking Pawlenty or Romney would have been viewed with a collective yawn. But with bringing in Palin he set the media on fire with her pick. It was a long shot for sure but to this point it looks like a stroke of genius TO THIS POINT. She has the ability to strike a cord with people from middle of America. And that is what is going to be needed for McCain to win the election along with the base that she was able to energize.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said. But in the article, Klein actually talks pointedly about governing, not just campaigning. I think we know that the Repubs. are masters of the campaign:


The Palin selection — peremptory, petulant — was another example of McCain's preference for the politics of gesture over the politics of substance, as is his sudden fondness for oil exploration ("Drill here, drill now.") and hair-trigger bellicosity abroad (Syria, Iran, Russia). His lack of interest in actual governance is disappointing; his aversion to contemplation seems truly alarming. He has done us all a favor with this pick: he has shown us exactly what sort of President he would be.

Seriously, in a year from now, wouldn't you feel downright dumb for chanting "Drill baby, drill!" at the RNC. I can't believe the things people are happy to chant at that convention. My point is that it doesn't make any sense at all. Repubs. will just do anything to get elected. And I don't even think they know who they're electing ... a "maverick". What's that going to do for the country on the small, important, substantive issues. Forget the electioneering. What about actually running the country? You can't run a country on partisan jabs. George Bush proved that!

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:18 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you've said. But in the article, Klein actually talks pointedly about governing, not just campaigning. I think we know that the Repubs. are masters of the campaign:


Seriously, in a year from now, wouldn't you feel downright dumb for chanting "Drill baby, drill!" at the RNC. I can't believe the things people are happy to chant at that convention. My point is that it doesn't make any sense at all. Repubs. will just do anything to get elected. And I don't even think they know who they're electing ... a "maverick". What's that going to do for the country on the small, important, substantive issues. Forget the electioneering. What about actually running the country? You can't run a country on partisan jabs. George Bush proved that!

Honestly how much governing does the president really do? He does not sponsor bills that is what the legislature is there for. He can only sign or veto a bill that comes to his desk. He can pass along his agenda but it is up to the legislature to accept them or not. So in an answer to your question no I would not feel dumb about chanting that because it would still be up to the congress to do anything about it. People on this board get to wrapped up in the notion that the president is down there in congress writing and passing bills but that just isn't the case. So yes it is a win at all costs for both parties for the POTUS slot but the real work is done in the senate. So with the nice little false ad that Obama keeps running on how McCain votes with Bush that just isn't the case he votes with the Republicans.

ink
09-04-2008, 09:20 PM
Honestly how much governing does the president really do? He does not sponsor bills that is what the legislature is there for. He can only sign or veto a bill that comes to his desk. He can pass along his agenda but it is up to the legislature to accept them or not. So in an answer to your question no I would not feel dumb about chanting that because it would still be up to the congress to do anything about it. People on this board get to wrapped up in the notion that the president is down there in congress writing and passing bills but that just isn't the case. So yes it is a win at all costs for both parties for the POTUS slot but the real work is done in the senate. So with the nice little false ad that Obama keeps running on how McCain votes with Bush that just isn't the case he votes with the Republicans.

So to you the president is a figure head?

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:25 PM
So to you the president is a figure head?

He has far less power than you give him credit for having. He has the ability to try and persuade congressmen to do his bidding but can he force them to? It is convenient to bash Bush because he is the top of the food chain yes the figure head. But bills are worked and passed through the legislature. Tell me if you see it differently I want to know your honest opinion of what the president's powers truly are.

ink
09-04-2008, 09:50 PM
He has far less power than you give him credit for having. He has the ability to try and persuade congressmen to do his bidding but can he force them to? It is convenient to bash Bush because he is the top of the food chain yes the figure head. But bills are worked and passed through the legislature. Tell me if you see it differently I want to know your honest opinion of what the president's powers truly are.

You know, this is confusing. On the one hand, McCain is campaigning on things like experience and substance, and against "celebrity". Yet, now you're making the point that these things don't matter. The president doesn't have much power? With respect, I think this is what you get when the party is in a transitional phase and has lost its meaning. There are fragments of meanings, but no unified message. Definitely no specific platform. And there's a completely new reason why it's ok to have McCain every day.

The president has a lot more power than any other citizen. Who else do you know that can issue executive orders, make decisions as Commander in Chief, nominate all the heads of government departments, prepare the budget, appoint the federal cabinet, ambassadors and Supreme Court justices? Doesn't he also have a pocket veto? That's a hell of a lot of power concentrated in one position - and I've probably just scraped the surface.

I'd kinda want that guy to be a details type. lol.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 10:10 PM
You know, this is confusing. On the one hand, McCain is campaigning on things like experience and substance, and against "celebrity". Yet, now you're making the point that these things don't matter. The president doesn't have much power? With respect, I think this is what you get when the party is in a transitional phase and has lost its meaning. There are fragments of meanings, but no unified message. Definitely no specific platform. And there's a completely new reason why it's ok to have McCain every day.
You go back and show me one single post that I said anything about experience making a huge difference. You are getting my point of view not the talking points of the RNC. I am making the point that these things don't matter to me. The party may be in a transitional period but my beliefs have not changed.


The president has a lot more power than any other citizen. Who else do you know that can issue executive orders, make decisions as Commander in Chief, nominate all the heads of government departments, prepare the budget, appoint the federal cabinet, ambassadors and Supreme Court justices? Doesn't he also have a pocket veto? That's a hell of a lot of power concentrated in one position - and I've probably just scraped the surface.

I'd kinda want that guy to be a details type. lol
Well of course the President has more power than any other citizen. The veto is the only tool he has that doesn't have to be approved by Congress but can be overridden by them. He is able to appoint a cabinet and send a budget to Congress for approval. Same with ambassadors and judges. They are appointed by the POTUS but that doesn't mean anything until Congress gives them their approval. There is a reason there is a separation of powers given by the Constitution. It is easy for you to use Bush as a lightning rod for criticism of which some of it is warranted. So next time you want to talk down to someone at least base it on the comments themselves and not what the party is doing. I do not believe you are the entire Dem party just a single voice like mine. Oh and you also missed the President is able to write treaties again with the approval of Congress.

ink
09-04-2008, 10:15 PM
You go back and show me one single post that I said anything about experience making a huge difference. You are getting my point of view not the talking points of the RNC. I am making the point that these things don't matter to me. The party may be in a transitional period but my beliefs have not changed.

I was only talking about party line there. It's been repeated ad nauseum.


Well of course the President has more power than any other citizen. The veto is the only tool he has that doesn't have to be approved by Congress but can be overridden by them. He is able to appoint a cabinet and send a budget to Congress for approval. Same with ambassadors and judges. They are appointed by the POTUS but that doesn't mean anything until Congress gives them their approval. There is a reason there is a separation of powers given by the Constitution. It is easy for you to use Bush as a lightning rod for criticism of which some of it is warranted. So next time you want to talk down to someone at least base it on the comments themselves and not what the party is doing. I do not believe you are the entire Dem party just a single voice like mine. Oh and you also missed the President is able to write treaties again with the approval of Congress.

:confused: You've taken my posts the wrong way. I'm not talking down to you at all. I'm genuinely confused about what the party intends to do if it were to get elected. That's one of the two main points of the thread.