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View Full Version : What, if any, effect will the Geogria/Russia conflict have on the race?



b1e9a8r5s
08-12-2008, 03:39 PM
I was just wondering how people thought this might affect the race, if at all. Obviously the situation is fluid over there and is changing all the time. Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this issue.



I guess my first thought would be that this issue could potentially be a slight help to McCain because he is "stronger" on National Security/Foreign Policy based on the polls. I don't know how much it would help, if at all. I guess a lot of that could depend on how the situation plays out and how big of an issue it becomes.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-12-2008, 03:46 PM
I actually think this helps Obama. This situation is showing that neither Georgia or Russia really have much respect for US opinion on issues since our leaders judgement, opinion, priorities, and motives have been more than questionable and proven to be terrible with the Iraq invasion. This is an administration that is pretty much bankrupt on worldwide credibility.

Therefore, we could elect a guy who stood by poor decisions from W time and time again, or a guy who brings out 200,000 supporters in a foreign country, and no protestors. Judging by the fact that russia has sarkozy in moscow today to listen to him, I would venture a guess that McCain's opinion and thoughts are viewed down there with W's while a proven open mind like obama would be welcomed by both sides in many conflicts to get to the resolution. It's up to the american people to make this connection instead of just buying the bs line that republicans are better on security despite a piss poor track record on foreign policy decisions especially in times of war.

Doc Fluty
08-12-2008, 03:51 PM
i think it will have a big effect.

it will show that the world is a dangerous place and that russia is on its way to getting back to where it used to be.

and should we have a street organizer as our leader when russia has a kgb member as its head would they take us as more likely to be a pushover? or think that obama wouldnt stand up to them as mccain would

in fact i just read an article that shows how the different campaigns handled the action Russia took... and addresses this issue

http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1102552,CST-EDT-hunt12.article

Doc Fluty
08-12-2008, 03:59 PM
I actually think this helps Obama. This situation is showing that neither Georgia or Russia really have much respect for US opinion on issues since our leaders judgement, opinion, priorities, and motives have been more than questionable and proven to be terrible with the Iraq invasion. This is an administration that is pretty much bankrupt on worldwide credibility.

begin spin....

Therefore, we could elect a guy who stood by poor decisions from W time and time again, or a guy who brings out 200,000 supporters in a foreign country, and no protestors. Judging by the fact that russia has sarkozy in moscow today to listen to him, I would venture a guess that McCain's opinion and thoughts are viewed down there with W's while a proven open mind like obama would be welcomed by both sides in many conflicts to get to the resolution. It's up to the american people to make this connection instead of just buying the bs line that republicans are better on security despite a piss poor track record on foreign policy decisions especially in times of war.

lol... and you talk about me spinning stuff

Putin is the head of russia, make no mistake about it. and they did it when the world attention was on the olympics. Russia doesnt care about whos in office in america... it wanted georgia to know that its recent request to be a part of NATO wont be taken lightly.

this is about russia getting back land, the pipeline and Russia returning to a superpower... thats it


Georgia is a crucial link in a three country energy corridor vital to Western Europe's oil and gas supply. The 2 billion pipeline is the only major conduit for Central Asian resources not under Russian control.

The Kremlin under Vladimir Putin, Russia's former president and now prime minister, used gas exports to Europe as a tool of foreign policy.

Reduced supplies to eastern Europe forced Russia's neighbours to curtail pro-Western ambitions. Western Europe, especially Germany, is dangerously vulnerable to reduced supplies from Russia at times of political tension.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html

PHX-SOXFAN
08-12-2008, 04:03 PM
lol... and you talk about me spinning stuff

Putin is the head of russia, make no mistake about it. and they did it when the world attention was on the olympics. Russia doesnt care about whos in office in america... it wanted georgia to know that its recent request to be a part of NATO wont be taken lightly.

this is about russia getting back land, the pipeline and Russia returning to a supherpower... thats it


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html

big spin that George W and those who follow in his failed foreign policy footsteps don't have much influence on future foreign policy?:confused: Hardly! Have you ever heard the boy who cried wolf?:D It's common sense that when you are repeatedly wrong, people stop paying as much attention. When you are repeatedly open, people talk and listen.

b1e9a8r5s
08-12-2008, 04:18 PM
big spin that George W and those who follow in his failed foreign policy footsteps don't have much influence on future foreign policy?:confused: Hardly! Have you ever heard the boy who cried wolf?:D It's common sense that when you are repeatedly wrong, people stop paying as much attention. When you are repeatedly open, people talk and listen.

I think you are going a little overboard with this. I think that while W is obviously not popular at home, and to a lessor extent isn't the favorite of foreign governments, I think it's a huge reach to imply that the reason this is happening is because the world (or in this case Russia) has lost respect/fear for the US.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-12-2008, 05:23 PM
I think you are going a little overboard with this. I think that while W is obviously not popular at home, and to a lessor extent isn't the favorite of foreign governments, I think it's a huge reach to imply that the reason this is happening is because the world (or in this case Russia) has lost respect/fear for the US.

I'm not saying or even thinking that the reason for the conflict has anything to do with the US. It does not. However being ignored and shrugged off on the world stage is a direct result of incompetence being proved in past decisions. Those incompetent decisions and their supporters are easy to follow through the timeline of events. The people who are aware those decisions listen to those who make smart decisions and ignore those who don't. Therefore, no one is listening to GW or McCain, and they are all more open to a fresh outlook from american foreign policy. Especially since failure is how the policies are viewed abroad.

Eastside Scott
08-12-2008, 05:30 PM
I actually think this helps Obama. This situation is showing that neither Georgia or Russia really have much respect for US opinion on issues since our leaders judgement, opinion, priorities, and motives have been more than questionable and proven to be terrible with the Iraq invasion. This is an administration that is pretty much bankrupt on worldwide credibility.

Therefore, we could elect a guy who stood by poor decisions from W time and time again, or a guy who brings out 200,000 supporters in a foreign country, and no protestors. Judging by the fact that russia has sarkozy in moscow today to listen to him, I would venture a guess that McCain's opinion and thoughts are viewed down there with W's while a proven open mind like obama would be welcomed by both sides in many conflicts to get to the resolution. It's up to the american people to make this connection instead of just buying the bs line that republicans are better on security despite a piss poor track record on foreign policy decisions especially in times of war.

Listen, I am all for the most popular candidate in Germany being the next US President. Everone knows that we self-hating Americans should listen more to the wonderful Euros, we sure can't handle things on our own. I can't think of any better reason to elect someone. Wait, wait, a better reason just hit me...change. Nothing specific, just change. Electing a 1976 Ford Pinto President would be change, so I guess I am for that too.

In all seriousness, McCain kills Obama on foreign policy experience. There is really no debate. You can hate the Iraq war all you want, but don't mistake what you and your play pals think with what Russia is thinking. Russia doesn't want Georgia in NATO. Russia does want Obama President. Not because he is a rock star, but because they think he is a ***** for all the carping about Iraq and all of the coddling of Iran and Cuba, etc.

Notice how everyone got real quiet about how Gore should have been President after 9/11 happened? That is because they were glad that a tough-talking R was the Pres instead of a chicken-stuff D who would have blamed it on global warming or our lack of charm overseas (or possibly Manbearpig).

b1e9a8r5s
08-12-2008, 05:34 PM
I'm not saying or even thinking that the reason for the conflict has anything to do with the US. It does not. However being ignored and shrugged off on the world stage is a direct result of incompetence being proved in past decisions. Those incompetent decisions and their supporters are easy to follow through the timeline of events. The people who are aware those decisions listen to those who make smart decisions and ignore those who don't. Therefore, no one is listening to GW or McCain, and they are all more open to a fresh outlook from american foreign policy. Especially since failure is how the policies are viewed abroad.

Well I'm glad to hear that's not what you were suggesting. How exactly are we being shrugged off? I saw the president of Georgia talking to Wolf Blitzer of CNN pleading for US help. I think Russia is taking a calculated risk, thinking they can grab the valuable land back, while only having their actions condemed or perhaps facing some sactions. Either way, I'm not sure how that gets you to the point that we are being "ignored and shrugged off on the world stage" or to the point that it benifits Obama.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-12-2008, 05:42 PM
Listen, I am all for the most popular candidate in Germany being the next US President. Everone knows that we self-hating Americans should listen more to the wonderful Euros, we sure can't handle things on our own. I can't think of any better reason to elect someone. Wait, wait, a better reason just hit me...change. Nothing specific, just change. Electing a 1976 Ford Pinto President would be change, so I guess I am for that too.

In all seriousness, McCain kills Obama on foreign policy experience. There is really no debate. You can hate the Iraq war all you want, but don't mistake what you and your play pals think with what Russia is thinking. Russia doesn't want Georgia in NATO. Russia does want Obama President. Not because he is a rock star, but because they think he is a ***** for all the carping about Iraq and all of the coddling of Iran and Cuba, etc.

Notice how everyone got real quiet about how Gore should have been President after 9/11 happened? That is because they were glad that a tough-talking R was the Pres instead of a chicken-stuff D who would have blamed it on global warming or our lack of charm overseas (or possibly Manbearpig).

and as most americans look back now they realize anyone could have pointed to a map and said to bomb Afghanistan and get rid of the terrorism promoting taliban and avoided having GW in place to completely screw up Iraq and lie about it this entire time.

Being tough talking is one thing, but talking about something intelligently, with the correct information, and with a clear understanding is completely different. If you could add those things into the equation, you get good fact based decisions instead of fearmongering, overreacting, ego driven, ignorant ones.

Also, Obama does not coddle Cuba and Iran, that is conservative blowhard spin, nothing fact based there. Just because he doesn't spew fearmongering crap and is open to solving the problems without a war and speaking intelligently doesn't make it coddling.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-12-2008, 05:43 PM
Well I'm glad to hear that's not what you were suggesting. How exactly are we being shrugged off? I saw the president of Georgia talking to Wolf Blitzer of CNN pleading for US help. I think Russia is taking a calculated risk, thinking they can grab the valuable land back, while only having their actions condemed or perhaps facing some sactions. Either way, I'm not sure how that gets you to the point that we are being "ignored and shrugged off on the world stage" or to the point that it benifits Obama.

i'm also not saying americans as a whole are being ignored. I'm saying GW and his foreign policy backers have very little credibility as far as the rest of the world goes. there is very little chance they accomplish anything diplomatically. That's what happens when someone gets viewed as an idiot, they get ignored.

b1e9a8r5s
08-12-2008, 05:48 PM
i'm also not saying americans as a whole are being ignored. I'm saying GW and his foreign policy backers have very little credibility as far as the rest of the world goes. there is very little chance they accomplish anything diplomatically. That's what happens when someone gets viewed as an idiot, they get ignored.

Well I think you are still over playing the hand, as it were. I don't think Bush international credibility is quite as low as you think. Anyways, I do agree that I wouldn't expect Bush to accomplish too much on this issue, allthough I would attribute that more to the fact he is a lame duck president.

Doc Fluty
08-12-2008, 06:47 PM
the facts are that people hate bush. they think he stole the election from gore, is a warmongeror, doesnt care about the planet, responsible for katrina, jena 6, poverty in africa, burning of the rain forest, and cancer

ill say this slow.... Russia wants an oil pipeline, land, respect and doesnt care who is in office in America

this is not about bush,this is about putin... its about how when russia was broke some people formed new countries. and now that with the money they have earned from oil and natural gas.. they want mother russia as a superpower again.

and if you dont think Putin WANTS obama to win your in denial. Putin will own obama and just do what he wants with his new financed military.

The street activist wont hold a candle to the KGB LT Colonel.

heres a lil background on Putin

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/russiagov/putin.htm

pay attention to the parts about Nato and such


Fiercely patriotic, Putin once said he could not read a book by a Soviet defector because "I don't read books by people who have betrayed the Motherland."

blenderboy5
08-12-2008, 07:52 PM
I don't think enough Americans a) know Georgia's also a country or b) know what's going on right now in that part of the world for it to affect voters.

ari1013
08-12-2008, 09:37 PM
It won't do anything at all because Americans have no clue:
1. Where Georgia is
2. That Georgia's even a country

DenButsu
08-12-2008, 10:05 PM
I don't think enough Americans a) know Georgia's also a country or b) know what's going on right now in that part of the world for it to affect voters.


It won't do anything at all because Americans have no clue:
1. Where Georgia is
2. That Georgia's even a country

You both beat me to it.

I think the only way this has a real impact is if either candidate makes a significant blunder regarding this issue that the other can exploit. For example, I don't know if this story (http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/politicalinsider/2008/08/did-mccain-plagarize-his-speec.html) will get legs under it or not (probably not), but if it - or something like it - did, it could make an impact. It could end up as a one-liner in a debate.

AllTheWay
08-12-2008, 10:19 PM
Haha wow....I wonder if McCain really plagerized that speech...

DenButsu
08-12-2008, 10:41 PM
Haha wow....I wonder if McCain really plagerized that speech...

They've denied it, saying there are limited ways to describe the same set of historical events or something like that. But a lot of those first two passages is pretty much verbatim... :shrug:

blenderboy5
08-13-2008, 12:35 AM
Well the first one isn't plagarism. How else would you state that the country was one of the first to adopt christianity?

DenButsu
08-13-2008, 01:06 AM
The use of the word "adopt" is fairly specific, and the fact that the following phrasing is word for word is suspect:

one of the ... world ... to adopt Christianity as an official religion


I mean, if this were presented as evidence of plagiarism to a high school English or History teacher, it probably wouldn't pass the plausible deniability litmus test, I don't think.

gcoll
08-13-2008, 02:00 AM
George Bush being viewed as "stupid" on a world stage is not an issue.....because it is not JUST the US's opinion that Russia is ignoring.

Second off. Where's the UN? Shouldn't this be up their alley?


That's what happens when someone gets viewed as an idiot, they get ignored.
And when someone is viewed as weak?


Also, Obama does not coddle Cuba and Iran, that is conservative blowhard spin, nothing fact based there.
Dude. You spin more than any other poster on this forum.

You took a question about what effect the situation between Georgia and Russia would have on the election, and turned it into a "this is George Bush's fault" topic. Or that somehow....Obama would have a lot more weight with the Russians. That's silly. Do you really think Putin gives a **** what Barack Obama has to say? Putin is former KGB...and he's got that Soviet attitude. He's not some lightweight, like our political figures are.

Finally to get around to answering the question, this story will not have much of an impact on the elections.

ari1013
08-13-2008, 09:17 AM
George Bush being viewed as "stupid" on a world stage is not an issue.....because it is not JUST the US's opinion that Russia is ignoring.

Second off. Where's the UN? Shouldn't this be up their alley?


And when someone is viewed as weak?


Dude. You spin more than any other poster on this forum.

You took a question about what effect the situation between Georgia and Russia would have on the election, and turned it into a "this is George Bush's fault" topic. Or that somehow....Obama would have a lot more weight with the Russians. That's silly. Do you really think Putin gives a **** what Barack Obama has to say? Putin is former KGB...and he's got that Soviet attitude. He's not some lightweight, like our political figures are.

Finally to get around to answering the question, this story will not have much of an impact on the elections.
Russia has veto power in the UNSC. The UN can't do a thing about it. More likely, they'll just condemn Israel for one thing or another. It's their typical fallback.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-13-2008, 11:17 AM
George Bush being viewed as "stupid" on a world stage is not an issue.....because it is not JUST the US's opinion that Russia is ignoring.

Second off. Where's the UN? Shouldn't this be up their alley?


And when someone is viewed as weak?


Dude. You spin more than any other poster on this forum.

You took a question about what effect the situation between Georgia and Russia would have on the election, and turned it into a "this is George Bush's fault" topic. Or that somehow....Obama would have a lot more weight with the Russians. That's silly. Do you really think Putin gives a **** what Barack Obama has to say? Putin is former KGB...and he's got that Soviet attitude. He's not some lightweight, like our political figures are.

Finally to get around to answering the question, this story will not have much of an impact on the elections.

Ahhh!:D As I start to read my morning news, what do I find?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080813/ts_csm/atoothless

An article stating how little influence the US has on the region, Russia. Good to see my "spin" is backed by the opinion of world politics!:clap::clap::clap::D

I'm not at all saying this is GW's fault. It is his fault that our country has no political or diplomatic influence left after all the foreign policy blunders of this administration. LEt me be crystal clear we are not part of the problem and that has nothing to do with the US or GW, but we will have absolutely nothing to do with the solution solely because GW has cut the legs out from under american credibility on a worldwide stage. This is obvious.

Doc Fluty
08-13-2008, 11:53 AM
the russians arent honoring the cease fire... and look what happens to the American image when you have people (cough liberlas, obama) screaming for us to tuck our tails in between our legs and run from iraq over a year ago...

see what russians are yelling out as they are invading another country...

"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told AP on Wednesday.
He said Georgia would have to accept the new border and taunted the retreating Georgian forces, saying they had received "American training in running away."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

PHX-SOXFAN
08-13-2008, 12:08 PM
the russians arent honoring the cease fire... and look what happens to the American image when you have people (cough liberlas, obama) screaming for us to tuck our tails in between our legs and run from iraq over a year ago...

see what russians are yelling out as they are invading another country...

"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told AP on Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

no one has proposed tucking our tails and running. TO my knowledge the McCain Iraq plan sounds awfully similar to the Obama plan now. I don't get where the Russians are basing their taunts on, or where the spin comes from that this is because of obama proposed policy:confused:.

blenderboy5
08-13-2008, 02:02 PM
^^^ Yes it does. Because both Obama and McCain became more centrist in their positions...

Eastside Scott
08-13-2008, 03:00 PM
and as most americans look back now they realize anyone could have pointed to a map and said to bomb Afghanistan and get rid of the terrorism promoting taliban and avoided having GW in place to completely screw up Iraq and lie about it this entire time.

Being tough talking is one thing, but talking about something intelligently, with the correct information, and with a clear understanding is completely different. If you could add those things into the equation, you get good fact based decisions instead of fearmongering, overreacting, ego driven, ignorant ones.

Also, Obama does not coddle Cuba and Iran, that is conservative blowhard spin, nothing fact based there. Just because he doesn't spew fearmongering crap and is open to solving the problems without a war and speaking intelligently doesn't make it coddling.


People who agree with me = Intelligent, non-partsan, sane, fair-minded folks

People who disagree with me = "conservative blowhard spin"

What you need to realize is that while you may be surrounded by people who feel the same as you (as people are young they are overwhelmingy liberal because they don't have to pay bills), and choose to label anyone who disagrees with your opinion whether it be a blogger, a national news source, or an elected official as some kind of evil, scheming, spin-meister, that does not mean that there is one overwhelming point of view andthat it is the one shared by you.

Quick numbers - About half of the people eligible to vote in the last couple of presidential elections did. Of those half, half went one way and half went the other (roughly speaking). What that boils down to is that 25% of the people voted the way you wanted. Where exactly do you get the idea that all of your beliefs are so widely held? Spin those numbers any way you would like. I promise you that you cannot get them to work out any differently. No Fox News conspiracy, no Haliburton brainwashing, just a nation happily full of independent thinkers who look beyond whether there is and R or a D after someone's name and base their decisions on a person's accomplishments and qualifications (or lack thereof). Be a sheep if you must, but if you decide to be a sheep, please don't try to herd everyone else.

arkanian215
08-13-2008, 03:25 PM
I actually think this helps Obama. This situation is showing that neither Georgia or Russia really have much respect for US opinion on issues since our leaders judgement, opinion, priorities, and motives have been more than questionable and proven to be terrible with the Iraq invasion. This is an administration that is pretty much bankrupt on worldwide credibility.

Therefore, we could elect a guy who stood by poor decisions from W time and time again, or a guy who brings out 200,000 supporters in a foreign country, and no protestors. Judging by the fact that russia has sarkozy in moscow today to listen to him, I would venture a guess that McCain's opinion and thoughts are viewed down there with W's while a proven open mind like obama would be welcomed by both sides in many conflicts to get to the resolution. It's up to the american people to make this connection instead of just buying the bs line that republicans are better on security despite a piss poor track record on foreign policy decisions especially in times of war.

i definitely thought that there were some skin heads in germany. i heard about how bad it was for those guys from africa during the world cup. i think ivory coast got it the worst, then again it's hard to tell which cut is deeper

Doc Fluty
08-13-2008, 03:59 PM
i definitely thought that there were some skin heads in germany. i heard about how bad it was for those guys from africa during the world cup. i think ivory coast got it the worst, then again it's hard to tell which cut is deeper

tha fu...?

Eastside Scott
08-13-2008, 04:19 PM
tha fu...?

You didn't notice the thread got changed to "random thoughts on Germany"? That was right after it became a plagiarism thread.

Now back to the subject - They drive fast on the Autobahn, German Chocolate Cake tastes like feet, and I have also heard there are skinheads there.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-13-2008, 06:06 PM
People who agree with me = Intelligent, non-partsan, sane, fair-minded folks

People who disagree with me = "conservative blowhard spin"

What you need to realize is that while you may be surrounded by people who feel the same as you (as people are young they are overwhelmingy liberal because they don't have to pay bills), and choose to label anyone who disagrees with your opinion whether it be a blogger, a national news source, or an elected official as some kind of evil, scheming, spin-meister, that does not mean that there is one overwhelming point of view andthat it is the one shared by you.

Quick numbers - About half of the people eligible to vote in the last couple of presidential elections did. Of those half, half went one way and half went the other (roughly speaking). What that boils down to is that 25% of the people voted the way you wanted. Where exactly do you get the idea that all of your beliefs are so widely held? Spin those numbers any way you would like. I promise you that you cannot get them to work out any differently. No Fox News conspiracy, no Haliburton brainwashing, just a nation happily full of independent thinkers who look beyond whether there is and R or a D after someone's name and base their decisions on a person's accomplishments and qualifications (or lack thereof). Be a sheep if you must, but if you decide to be a sheep, please don't try to herd everyone else.

thanks for the labeling of me and propaganda. I didn't say any of these categorizations anywhere.

Obviously you know nothing about me if you are labeling me as someone young and liberal and don't pay bills. Pretty innacurate, but thanks for trying.

blenderboy5
08-13-2008, 10:31 PM
^^ It's not inaccurate. Most young people are liberals. The stereotypical young person is young, not as seasoned if you will, more idealistic. That's not to say all liberals are young. And some liberals do pay taxes. Stereotypically, liberals are either very rich/elitist or very poor. Ironic, because the whole liberal argument is based on helping the middle class.

DenButsu
08-13-2008, 10:41 PM
the russians arent honoring the cease fire... and look what happens to the American image when you have people (cough liberlas, obama) screaming for us to tuck our tails in between our legs and run from iraq over a year ago...

So are you advocating that the U.S. go to war with Russia, then, Doc Fluty?

That is the central problem of the Bush Administration's Georgia policy over the past several years. They imply, insinuate, and allude that we will be there to back Georgia up if the **** hits the fan between them and Russia. This gives the Georgian leaders false confidence that we will actually back them up militarily if it does come to that, which we (wisely) are not prepared to do. So basically the Bush policy is:

1. Talk tough and pretend like we'll help Georgia militarily if a military conflict arises between Georgia and Russia

2. Not help Georgia militarily when the get into a military conflict with Russia.



And chalk up another big FAIL for the neocons. :clap:




Check it:

What is the larger concern right now... I'm thinking the Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

So here's a quiz:

Q: Which country with considerable economic and military power is providing Iran with some of the technology they need to develop nukes, and is also a member of the U.N. Security Council, so that if Europe and the U.S. are to have successful negotiations with Iran to get them to stop their development of nuclear weapons their partnership in the process will be mandatory?

A: The country you want to go to war with, or at least pretend to go to war with.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-13-2008, 10:53 PM
^^ It's not inaccurate. Most young people are liberals. The stereotypical young person is young, not as seasoned if you will, more idealistic. That's not to say all liberals are young. And some liberals do pay taxes. Stereotypically, liberals are either very rich/elitist or very poor. Ironic, because the whole liberal argument is based on helping the middle class.

it is inaccurate, an inaccurate assessment of myself as I said. I'm young, but not rich or elitist. I'm middle class and come from middle class upbringing.

gcoll
08-13-2008, 11:34 PM
Russia has veto power in the UNSC. The UN can't do a thing about it. More likely, they'll just condemn Israel for one thing or another. It's their typical fallback.

haha.

Forgot about the veto.


Good to see my "spin" is backed by the opinion of world politics!
And....how does Obama's presence change that situation?

blenderboy5
08-13-2008, 11:59 PM
So are you advocating that the U.S. go to war with Russia, then, Doc Fluty?

That is the central problem of the Bush Administration's Georgia policy over the past several years. They imply, insinuate, and allude that we will be there to back Georgia up if the **** hits the fan between them and Russia. This gives the Georgian leaders false confidence that we will actually back them up militarily if it does come to that, which we (wisely) are not prepared to do. So basically the Bush policy is:

1. Talk tough and pretend like we'll help Georgia militarily if a military conflict arises between Georgia and Russia

2. Not help Georgia militarily when the get into a military conflict with Russia.
Check it:

What is the larger concern right now... I'm thinking the Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

So here's a quiz:

Q: Which country with considerable economic and military power is providing Iran with some of the technology they need to develop nukes, and is also a member of the U.N. Security Council, so that if Europe and the U.S. are to have successful negotiations with Iran to get them to stop their development of nuclear weapons their partnership in the process will be mandatory?

A: The country you want to go to war with, or at least pretend to go to war with.

Yeah that's why I hate Russia but can't fault them for the basic strategy of holding their enemy by the balls. Either way we're ****ed in the situation. Especially because in the end, Russia's gonna side with Iran anyway.

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 12:34 AM
Check it:

What is the larger concern right now... I'm thinking the Iranian development of nuclear weapons.

So here's a quiz:

Q: Which country with considerable economic and military power is providing Iran with some of the technology they need to develop nukes, and is also a member of the U.N. Security Council, so that if Europe and the U.S. are to have successful negotiations with Iran to get them to stop their development of nuclear weapons their partnership in the process will be mandatory?

A: The country you want to go to war with, or at least pretend to go to war with.



Who has the most to lose if russia goes back to its old ways? old europe. If i were president i would... a. do whatever symbolic diplomatic things i can to russia (sanctions and maybe suspend them from the UN security counsel). b. back georgia with supplies (read food and medicine) that it would need to defend itself, I would not go in and give them bombers and tanks. i would try to persuade europe into putting "humanitarian" troops in georgia to "keep the peace". and that way the world doesnt see our troops in another country on tv. If france had troops on the ground and russian tanks were still invading we would get a lot more support from the world than if we were there.

i do not WANT to go to war with anybody.. but if russia INVADES a nation and we just sit there with our arms folded what signal does that send to russia and Iran when it thinks about nuking Israel???

things are headed in a real bad direction... no matter whos or whats at fault.

Iran wants Nukes and Israel wiped out, mother russia wants land and a pipieline, and korea is just nuts.

throw in our troubled economy and a public that is sick of war and waving white flags...and i see the making of world war 3

Iran already said that they will not be won over by "carrots and sticks"

russia is blatantly invading a nation and on tv saying they stopped fighting while there tank are headed to the capital.

these people wont want money, gifts or be bothered by "there standing in the world community" ....appeasement will not suffice when these people start doing there version of stalin, hitler and Napoleon.

and in MY opinion during the next 4-8 years when the world is on the brink of something earth shattering... i do not feel comfortable with my leader being a street organizer while Russians leader will be a LT colonel in the KGB

blenderboy5
08-14-2008, 01:03 AM
Wait how can you suspend Russia from the Security Council? They're kinda a permanent member. And Putin knows just as well as we do that the UN doesn't matter and as such has zero power.

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 01:06 AM
Wait how can you suspend Russia from the Security Council? They're kinda a permanent member. And Putin knows just as well as we do that the UN doesn't matter and as such has zero power.

yeah your right.. the are not in the G8 no more.. now its the G7... but maybe there are a few other things to try... i kow they are a permanent member but there has to be SOME offenses that might get them out.. say if they invade the Ukraine and poland.. i dunno..

DenButsu
08-14-2008, 01:07 AM
i do not WANT to go to war with anybody.. but if russia INVADES a nation and we just sit there with our arms folded what signal does that send to russia and Iran when it thinks about nuking Israel???

Okay, but let's not parse words here. You don't "want" war in the sense that you're "rah-rah let's go to war!". I understand that.

But what you're saying is that you support a U.S. military response against Russia in their conflict with Georgia, right? You think America should provide direct military support to the Georgian troops?

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 01:14 AM
yes i would support georgia in this conflict but i said i DO NOT support giving them arms and tanks.. i said giving them food and medicine.

i would like to see Europe put troops there to "keep the peace" since they are in more danger of a expanding russia

im not rah rah war.. im rah rah don't look like a inept *****...

as the saying goes...The only thing evil men need to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Eastside Scott
08-14-2008, 09:35 AM
thanks for the labeling of me and propaganda. I didn't say any of these categorizations anywhere.

Obviously you know nothing about me if you are labeling me as someone young and liberal and don't pay bills. Pretty innacurate, but thanks for trying.

OK, just quickly, the "conservative blowhard spin" is a direct quote from your previous post. Also, how is it inaccurate to say that young people are overwhelmingly liberal? You say in a post a couple down that you are young, yet here you are saying it is personally innacurate. I don't really get it.

Any thoughts on the meat of my post, or do you just want to cherry-pick the things you think can get better pop?

nascar10294
08-14-2008, 09:47 AM
This will have only a tiny effect in support of McCain. But if Russia were to contunie showing its Military powers, I thihknk it could help McCain hugley. Vladimar Putin is only affraid McCain, Tompson, and possibly Rudy. He isn't scared of BHO. He wants him nto be president, because he couldn't attack Russia. He isn't a smart enough miliary person to know how to do the right thing.

DenButsu
08-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Some of the comments in this thread are starting to move towards personal directions.


Everybody, please just don't go there. Thanks.

Eastside Scott
08-14-2008, 10:36 AM
Some of the comments in this thread are starting to move towards personal directions.


Everybody, please just don't go there. Thanks.

If that is for me, I apologize. I will watch it.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 11:08 AM
OK, just quickly, the "conservative blowhard spin" is a direct quote from your previous post. Also, how is it inaccurate to say that young people are overwhelmingly liberal? You say in a post a couple down that you are young, yet here you are saying it is personally innacurate. I don't really get it.

Any thoughts on the meat of my post, or do you just want to cherry-pick the things you think can get better pop?

you and BB both said rich and elitist, and that is inaccurate. you are trying to label me as the blowhards have preached to do, it is inaccurate.

DenButsu
08-14-2008, 11:11 AM
If that is for me, I apologize. I will watch it.

It is for EVERYBODY. It's time to drop it, let it go. Now.



Thank you.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 11:11 AM
haha.

Forgot about the veto.


And....how does Obama's presence change that situation?

are you serious.:confused: Put McCain or Bush on a world stage and see how much response or acknowledgment they get. Then do the same with Obama. You will see a huge difference in countries being open to diplomacy and being responsive, instead of defiant. The world is sick of the bully, ignorant, non listening attitude of this administration. It's obvious. You are either being blind or just difficult by asking this question.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 11:15 AM
Good to see Russia openly defying this administration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15georgia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I'm sure Condi will get this all straightened out:rolleyes:

b1e9a8r5s
08-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Good to see Russia openly defying this administration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15georgia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I'm sure Condi will get this all straightened out:rolleyes:

I love how you said earlier that this wasn't Bush fault, but that's all you keep bringing up. And isn't openly defing the UN or the World and not just the Bush administration?

Oh, I forgot, it's always Bush's fault.

Randy West
08-14-2008, 11:31 AM
It is funny that you think anyone would straighten it out.

Or that if someone else were in office Russia would be doing something different.

Russia is going to do what they want to do regardless of dialogue

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 01:02 PM
I love how you said earlier that this wasn't Bush fault, but that's all you keep bringing up. And isn't openly defing the UN or the World and not just the Bush administration?

Oh, I forgot, it's always Bush's fault.

It's funny how I never once said any of this situation is Bush's fault yet this is at least the second time that someone has confused my statements to mean that. I have a suggestion go back and read my posts and try to find one time I said any of that. DUring your reading review you will notice that I never once said that. I have repeatedly said that this administration has crippled american credibility on foreign issues and will not be acknowledged, probably defied, and certainly not part of any solution to the conlfict.

That's all I'm saying. Bush's policies have caused this country to no longer be viewed as an authority or credible opinion, therefore we will not be able to help diffuse situations like this or broker diplomatic resolutions. That is certainly Bush's fault. The conflict is not, but whether this happened in Georgia or Peru, no one is listening to Bush or his chronies.

Randy West
08-14-2008, 01:38 PM
It's funny how I never once said any of this situation is Bush's fault yet this is at least the second time that someone has confused my statements to mean that. I have a suggestion go back and read my posts and try to find one time I said any of that. DUring your reading review you will notice that I never once said that. I have repeatedly said that this administration has crippled american credibility on foreign issues and will not be acknowledged, probably defied, and certainly not part of any solution to the conlfict.

That's all I'm saying. Bush's policies have caused this country to no longer be viewed as an authority or credible opinion, therefore we will not be able to help diffuse situations like this or broker diplomatic resolutions. That is certainly Bush's fault. The conflict is not, but whether this happened in Georgia or Peru, no one is listening to Bush or his chronies.

So the situation is not his fault but the results are according to you??

You like to leave out the fact that Russia would not listen to anyone democrat or republican or the UN for that matter.

They will do what they want regardless of who is or who is not in the whitehouse.

If you believe that a senator with zero experience in this type of thing would be getting any different results you are having a tough time with reality.

b1e9a8r5s
08-14-2008, 01:39 PM
It's funny how I never once said any of this situation is Bush's fault yet this is at least the second time that someone has confused my statements to mean that. I have a suggestion go back and read my posts and try to find one time I said any of that. DUring your reading review you will notice that I never once said that. I have repeatedly said that this administration has crippled american credibility on foreign issues and will not be acknowledged, probably defied, and certainly not part of any solution to the conlfict.

That's all I'm saying. Bush's policies have caused this country to no longer be viewed as an authority or credible opinion, therefore we will not be able to help diffuse situations like this or broker diplomatic resolutions. That is certainly Bush's fault. The conflict is not, but whether this happened in Georgia or Peru, no one is listening to Bush or his chronies.


I'm not suggesting that your saying the conflict itself is a result of anything Bush has done or not done, but you are implying that the low view of America, based on the poor decisions of the administration, have contributed to Russia (and every other country) not fearing or caring about what the US says. Correct? So Ipso Facto, it's a result of the Bush administration.

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 01:40 PM
I actually think this helps Obama. This situation is showing that neither Georgia or Russia really have much respect for US opinion on issues since our leaders judgement, opinion, priorities, and motives have been more than questionable and proven to be terrible with the Iraq invasion. This is an administration that is pretty much bankrupt on worldwide credibility.

Therefore, we could elect a guy who stood by poor decisions from W time and time again, or a guy who brings out 200,000 supporters in a foreign country, and no protestors. Judging by the fact that russia has sarkozy in moscow today to listen to him, I would venture a guess that McCain's opinion and thoughts are viewed down there with W's while a proven open mind like obama would be welcomed by both sides in many conflicts to get to the resolution. It's up to the american people to make this connection instead of just buying the bs line that republicans are better on security despite a piss poor track record on foreign policy decisions especially in times of war.

uh huh


are you serious.:confused: Put McCain or Bush on a world stage and see how much response or acknowledgment they get. Then do the same with Obama. You will see a huge difference in countries being open to diplomacy and being responsive, instead of defiant. The world is sick of the bully, ignorant, non listening attitude of this administration. It's obvious. You are either being blind or just difficult by asking this question.

you arent saying it directly... but you are implying it

and if you think the world is sick of bullies? then wait till obama is president and Iran Nukes Israel and Russia invades the Ukraine... will obama be able to handle that crisis?

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 01:56 PM
Georgian President, Misha Saakashvili: "John McCain said that Americans are supporting Georgia. McCain said, "We are Georgians today," everybody are Georgians today.

Secondly: Misha Saakashvili askes, "Who else can stand up for liberty in the world?"

We cant just turn our backs on ethnic cleansing

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 02:22 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia


Russia: 'Forget' Georgian territorial integrity

Russia's president met in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces — a clear sign that Moscow could absorb the regions.

he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?" [/B]

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 02:43 PM
uh huh



you arent saying it directly... but you are implying it

and if you think the world is sick of bullies? then wait till obama is president and Iran Nukes Israel and Russia invades the Ukraine... will obama be able to handle that crisis?

I'm not implying it one bit, I told you if it were Peru it would be the same. I don't know how much more clear I can make it. It's obvious you guys are part of the 27% and want to spin this to how you want to hear it.

Randy West
08-14-2008, 03:08 PM
I'm not implying it one bit, I told you if it were Peru it would be the same. I don't know how much more clear I can make it. It's obvious you guys are part of the 27% and want to spin this to how you want to hear it.

You are right you are not implying it you are coming right out and saying it


your quote

That's all I'm saying. Bush's policies have caused this country to no longer be viewed as an authority or credible opinion, therefore we will not be able to help diffuse situations like this or broker diplomatic resolutions. That is certainly Bush's fault. The conflict is not, but whether this happened in Georgia or Peru, no one is listening to Bush or his chronies.

those are your words
no one spun them
And you still won't address the fact that Russia historically has done what it feels is needed

Not what the UN or any other nation thinks it should do

I find it so funny that you are such a homer for Obama, a guy who if he was president at this point in time would still have zero control over what the Russians are or are not doing

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 03:28 PM
You are right you are not implying it you are coming right out and saying it


your quote

That's all I'm saying. Bush's policies have caused this country to no longer be viewed as an authority or credible opinion, therefore we will not be able to help diffuse situations like this or broker diplomatic resolutions. That is certainly Bush's fault. The conflict is not, but whether this happened in Georgia or Peru, no one is listening to Bush or his chronies.

those are your words
no one spun them
And you still won't address the fact that Russia historically has done what it feels is needed

Not what the UN or any other nation thinks it should do

I find it so funny that you are such a homer for Obama, a guy who if he was president at this point in time would still have zero control over what the Russians are or are not doing

so once again, I never said the situation was his fault. the fact that no one will listen to the us is his fault. separate the two, they are separate issues.

by the way, wasn't a cold war resolution brokered with Russia in the not so distant past?:speechless:

Doc Fluty
08-14-2008, 03:32 PM
yeah.. it was brokered when they were broke..

now they have the cash thanks to weapons sales (iran) and oil prices they are up to thier old tricks again

Randy West
08-14-2008, 03:40 PM
so once again, I never said the situation was his fault. the fact that no one will listen to the us is his fault. separate the two, they are separate issues.

by the way, wasn't a cold war resolution brokered with Russia in the not so distant past?:speechless:

which two term senator brokered that deal?? Was it one who lied to the people of the state he was representing or no??

No one will listen to us because of Bush according to you

so we won't be heard on the issue why exactly??? Oh because of Bush

So directly or indirectly it is Bushes fault according to you

you are becoming so moonman part II............but really I miss the entertainment

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 03:50 PM
which two term senator brokered that deal?? Was it one who lied to the people of the state he was representing or no??

No one will listen to us because of Bush according to you

so we won't be heard on the issue why exactly??? Oh because of Bush

So directly or indirectly it is Bushes fault according to you

you are becoming so moonman part II............but really I miss the entertainment

listen to yourself. separate the situations. opinion of us policy globally and georgia/russia conflict are separate issues. the issue can still be resolved. For instance sarkozy was in moscow brokering a cease fire. that used to be a US diplomat before this administration's policies crippled our credibility, now it's a french prime minister. That's all I'm saying. I agree with you that it will play out no matter what, it's just we are no longer a diplomatic power because of the current administration.

that's what happens when you leave a guy like colin powell out in the wind on a worldwide stage for personal purposes, or you ignore intelligence and manipulate it to feed your agenda. That's what happens when respected people are ignored time and time again. When problems come up, you aren't at the table to be involved.

blenderboy5
08-14-2008, 03:52 PM
you and BB both said rich and elitist, and that is inaccurate. you are trying to label me as the blowhards have preached to do, it is inaccurate.

To clarify, I didn't call you rich or elitis. I said that often, liberals are either very rich or very poor, and often elitist. As in the stereotypical/poster boy liberal. Not you. Just so we're clear I wasn't attacking you personally (not that "rich" is much of an insult).


Good to see Russia openly defying this administration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15georgia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I'm sure Condi will get this all straightened out:rolleyes:

Yeah, I too like when our enemies triumph. Just another way I support America: cheering when anti-American forces accomplish goals.

Eastside Scott
08-14-2008, 04:01 PM
listen to yourself. separate the situations. opinion of us policy globally and georgia/russia conflict are separate issues. the issue can still be resolved. For instance sarkozy was in moscow brokering a cease fire. that used to be a US diplomat before this administration's policies crippled our credibility, now it's a french prime minister. That's all I'm saying. I agree with you that it will play out no matter what, it's just we are no longer a diplomatic power because of the current administration.

that's what happens when you leave a guy like colin powell out in the wind on a worldwide stage for personal purposes, or you ignore intelligence and manipulate it to feed your agenda. That's what happens when respected people are ignored time and time again. When problems come up, you aren't at the table to be involved.

The French are there because they are likely to say that NATO supports Russia reforming the Soviet Union as long as they promise not to do anything mean to the French. Anyone who thinks the French are more "respected" than the US is mistaken. Countries that are not our friends, or who want to stir some stuff, know that the French can be counted on to punk-out at the drop of the hat. Countries respect the French the same way guys respect the last girl in the bar at closing time.

PHX-SOXFAN
08-14-2008, 04:46 PM
To clarify, I didn't call you rich or elitis. I said that often, liberals are either very rich or very poor, and often elitist. As in the stereotypical/poster boy liberal. Not you. Just so we're clear I wasn't attacking you personally (not that "rich" is much of an insult).



Yeah, I too like when our enemies triumph. Just another way I support America: cheering when anti-American forces accomplish goals.

I didn't see myself cheering at all. I'm actually quite disappointed about the situation. I don't like it at all either. I was showing my skepticism towards the diplomatic effectiveness of our administration.

b1e9a8r5s
08-14-2008, 04:50 PM
The French are there because they are likely to say that NATO supports Russia reforming the Soviet Union as long as they promise not to do anything mean to the French. Anyone who thinks the French are more "respected" than the US is mistaken. Countries that are not our friends, or who want to stir some stuff, know that the French can be counted on to punk-out at the drop of the hat. Countries respect the French the same way guys respect the last girl in the bar at closing time.

Well said.

blenderboy5
08-14-2008, 05:39 PM
Of our administration? I can assure you talking to Putin and getting to know him and trying to understand his fears and such won't make him a better person. If Obama had been President instead of Bush it's not like the situation would have played out any better, short of Obama coming out and saying "****, I don't give a damn about Georgia."