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ChiTownBearCub
07-08-2008, 07:07 PM
Amazing pickup. What do you guys think now. I'm not here to talk trash. Just trying to get your opinions. If all your pitchers weren't hurt you'd have one solid rotation.

Theriot2
07-08-2008, 07:19 PM
haha, yeah I think compared to the trade you guys made for Sabathia, we made an amazing deal for Harden.

redwhitenblue
07-08-2008, 07:20 PM
Amazing pickup. What do you guys think now. I'm not here to talk trash. Just trying to get your opinions. If all your pitchers weren't hurt you'd have one solid rotation.
By all you mean Gallardo?

you said in the Cubs forum you were going to come here to be a prick

mattz1212
07-08-2008, 07:21 PM
My first impression was the Cubs tore the A's a new *******, but the more I look into it the more I actually like what the A's did.

From what I've seen from Gallagher I've been pretty unimpressed but the minor league numbers would say that I am way off. Patterson could be a solid MINF in the future, but quite honestly I don't see a lot of him in the future. Murton could and probably will be a solid OFer, but nothing incredibly impressive. Donaldson has potential, but is still a relatively low and raw prospect. But what was the key to the deal for Oakland was they were finally able to sell Harden high which is why I am guessing they jumped on this offer.

With all that said, I still believe the Cubs won. With the exception of Gallagher I don't believe they opened the books too much to acquire a potential ace. Not to mention Gaudin is a quality pen arm and could easily be good insurance for Harden if he indeed goes down. Obviously if there is something to Harden's velocity being down or he's oft injured as a Cub, then the A's look pretty smart but until that happens the clear winner is the Cubs.

ChiTownBearCub
07-08-2008, 07:24 PM
You had Suppan too who was decent. I don't think Gallagher was very good. And we traded for 2 pitchers that could easily fill in his place. Gallagher was very young I think at 22 or 23 years old. Murton, Patterson, and Donaldson couldn't crack the starting roster with the players we already have so they had to be traded. I hope Murton does well on the A's. I think he was a good player. Even if he was a ginger.

smashmouth
07-08-2008, 07:29 PM
Cub fans you are aware

1.That hardens best career year he only had 11 wins

2. Harden cant stay healthy

3. Harden is comin from the A's..A's Starting Pitchers who leave the A's and join a new team more than likley fail..

Basicly the cubs traded for a Mark Prior...lol woohoo

redwhitenblue
07-08-2008, 07:38 PM
Cub fans you are aware

1.That hardens best career year he only had 11 wins

2. Harden cant stay healthy

3. Harden is comin from the A's..A's Starting Pitchers who leave the A's and join a new team more than likley fail..

Basicly the cubs traded for a Mark Prior...lol woohoo
You are aware wins are an awful judgment of pitchers?

I don't think Gallagher was very good.

You were wrong
Murton, Patterson, and Donaldson couldn't crack the starting roster with the players we already have so they had to be traded.Vitters can't crack the starting roster either, should we trade him too?...trading all your young guys is dumb as hell

smashmouth
07-08-2008, 08:12 PM
You are aware wins are an awful judgment of pitchers?

You were wrongVitters can't crack the starting roster either, should we trade him too?...trading all your young guys is dumb as hell

ok lets judge Harden by health aaand He still sucks

Humongo
07-08-2008, 09:12 PM
You are aware wins are an awful judgment of pitchers?




That was only a third of his argument though.

redwhitenblue
07-08-2008, 09:14 PM
That was only a third of his argument though.
I didn't bother reading anything after someone uses wins as a judgment for a pitcher



Looking at it, #3 is a ******** answer too

#2 is the same reason I've been saying I'm wary on the deal


BTW, a healthy Mark Prior-which is what you said the Cubs just traded for, is better than Sheets or Sabathia, so I'd take that

redwhitenblue
07-08-2008, 10:14 PM
The A's got the short end of that trade. Doesn't matter what things look like on paper though. The Brewers and Cubs still need to win games the games these guys pitch in.
So true, both teams have improved, I still don't think one is THAT much better than the other that luck won't play a major part

OC Knights #11
07-08-2008, 11:47 PM
i hate the cubs. But i gotta give to them, they got a good pitcher, they got scared when the Brewers got CC, now they just got a great pitcher. The next Brewers vs. Cubs series is going epic

Cubs Fan 4Ever
07-09-2008, 01:41 AM
i hate the cubs. But i gotta give to them, they got a good pitcher, they got scared when the Brewers got CC, now they just got a great pitcher. The next Brewers vs. Cubs series is going epic

Actually the Cubs were talking to the A's about a week before CC was traded

CubsRule08
07-09-2008, 02:18 AM
Actually the Cubs were talking to the A's about a week before CC was traded

I think you mean a month before CC was traded

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 02:25 AM
Actually the Cubs were talking to the A's about a week before CC was traded

It would be naive to think the Brewers adding CC didn't motivate Hendry to add Harden as soon as possible.

That being said, I think the Cubs ripped off the A's in this one. Oakland seemed to have all the leverage. The Brewers had just added CC, Harden had a very affordable $7 million club option, and Oakland was still in the playoff race. How Beane settled for the package he received is beyond me. I don't understand how you can go from looking for a Haren-type deal to the one he received from Chicago. I'm not questioning Billy's ability to find talent, but from every indication, he could've got more than that. On the other side, Chicago got one of the most talented starting pitchers in the game, and another experienced SP on top of that in Chad Gaudin. On the mound, Harden really isn't much worse than CC. We'll see if Harden can stay healthy.

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 02:27 AM
I think you mean a month before CC was traded

Exactly. They talk for a month, CC goes to Milwaukee, Hendry gives in. I don't know why you guys are so afraid to admit Hendry was pressured into making a move. It's not like you guys got ripped off as a result; it was actually the opposite.

Wrigleyboy25
07-09-2008, 02:31 AM
It would be naive to think the Brewers adding CC didn't motivate Hendry to add Harden as soon as possible.

That being said, I think the Cubs ripped off the A's in this one. Oakland seemed to have all the leverage. The Brewers had just added CC, Harden had a very affordable $7 million club option, and Oakland was still in the playoff race. How Beane settled for the package he received is beyond me. I don't understand how you can go from looking for a Haren-type deal to the one he received from Chicago. I'm not questioning Billy's ability to find talent, but from every indication, he could've got more than that. On the other side, Chicago got one of the most talented starting pitchers in the game, and another experienced SP on top of that in Chad Gaudin. On the mound, Harden really isn't much worse than CC. We'll see if Harden can stay healthy.

Here's how it went down:


Anatomy Of The Deal

Cubs general manager Jim Hendry checked in from time to time throughout June with Oakland general manager Billy Beane about the availability of Rich Harden, and their conversations traveled down the same path: Yes, Harden was available, but only at the right price, and that price would include right-handed pitcher Sean Gallagher. And Hendry indicated, repeatedly, that Gallagher wasn't available.

On Sunday evening -- the same night when word broke that the Brewers had worked out a deal for CC Sabathia -- Hendry indicated to Beane for the first time that he would make Gallagher available in a Harden deal, but it would create a problem: If Gallagher was traded, the Cubs wouldn't have the kind of depth they needed to deal with an injury.

"Let me call you back," Beane said.

Beane had an idea. He could fill Hendry's need for depth by adding veteran swingman Chad Gaudin in the trade. He phoned Hendry back on Monday night with the suggestion. "That could work," Hendry said, and the two general managers began piecing together other parts of the trade. Beane called Hendry with a detail of the trade very late on Monday night, California time, figuring the call would switch over to voice mail on Hendry's cell phone because it was so late.

But Hendry answered the phone, wide awake. "Jim, what are doing awake?" Beane asked.

"I'm just laying here on my couch," Hendry said.

Some 15 hours later, the trade was finished. Oakland got Gallagher, a pitching prospect with a more stable medical history than Harden, and the Cubs got a high-risk, high-reward talent in Harden.

-- Buster Olney


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3478902

WOwolfOL
07-09-2008, 02:33 AM
Sean Gallagher is going to be very good.

Easy to project a guy who keeps his era in mid 3's to low 4's with an 8 K/9 and good walk rates. He's only gonna get better.

brewersfan729
07-09-2008, 02:53 AM
Yes, Harden was available, but only at the right price, and that price would include right-handed pitcher Sean Gallagher. And Hendry indicated, repeatedly, that Gallagher wasn't available.

On Sunday evening -- the same night when word broke that the Brewers had worked out a deal for CC Sabathia -- Hendry indicated to Beane for the first time that he would make Gallagher available in a Harden deal

So Hendry pretty much wanted to counter the Sabathia move by getting Harden and caved on adding Gallagher to get it done. Thanks for confirming his thoughts.

CubsRule08
07-09-2008, 02:56 AM
So Hendry pretty much wanted to counter the Sabathia move by getting Harden and caved on adding Gallagher to get it done. Thanks for confirming his thoughts.

It doesnt matter now...we got Harden and you got Sabathia, which IMO was the 2 best players available...now we just wait to find out how this all plays out

Wrigleyboy25
07-09-2008, 02:57 AM
So Hendry pretty much wanted to counter the Sabathia move by getting Harden and caved on adding Gallagher to get it done. Thanks for confirming his thoughts.
Yeah I think once Gaudin got thrown in, and CC got dealt, he knew it'd be wise to make a move now.

Wrigleyboy25
07-09-2008, 02:59 AM
This was posted in the Cubs forum. Not meant to start a fight or something, just showing you what the computers say.

I have no idea how this works or the accuracy, but:



AccuScore: Cubs win battle of trades

So after two blockbuster trades rocked the National League Central, did the Cubs or Brewers come out in better shape?

According to the computers at AccuScore, which ran thousands of game simulations with the new players, the Cubs increased their chances of winning the Division.

When the Brewers traded for CC Sabathia on Monday, the probability of the Cubs winning the Central dropped from 68.1 percent to 64.6 percent for a difference of 3.5 percent.

But after the Cubs traded for Rich Harden, the Cubs' probability of winning the Division has gone up to 68.9 percent.

So according to AccuScore, the Cubs made the better deal.

Harden vs. Sabathia Trade Impact

Probability of winning the NL Central

CUBS 68.9 percent, up 4.3 percent from before the trades

BREWERS 26.2 percent, down 3.5 percent from before the trades

Probability of making the playoffs

CUBS 91.3 percent, up 2.8 percent from before the trades

BREWERS 65.1 percent, down 0.7 percent from before the trades.

brewersfan729
07-09-2008, 03:15 AM
After 26 years I just want to make the playoffs. Don't really care if it's the division or the wildcard.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 06:03 AM
haha, yeah I think compared to the trade you guys made for Sabathia, we made an amazing deal for Harden.

well I think you are really wrong on that. If you didn't know, LaPorta is/was expendable.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 06:07 AM
I didn't bother reading anything after someone uses wins as a judgment for a pitcher

BTW, a healthy Mark Prior-which is what you said the Cubs just traded for, is better than Sheets or Sabathia, so I'd take that

you think Harden is better than sheets and CC? :eyebrow:


IDK how our probability of making the playoffs went down. Do they not factor the wildcard?

mattz1212
07-09-2008, 06:36 AM
you think Harden is better than sheets and CC? :eyebrow:


IDK how our probability of making the playoffs went down. Do they not factor the wildcard?

I think its a typo in the article, it should say trade not trades those final results are only taking into account the Harden deal, the prior results already had the Sabathia deal included. Or at least thats the conclusion I came to, earlier it states the Brewers caught up 3.5% with Sabathia then the Cubs regained and then some with the Harden deal, the net effect was 0.8% in the Cubs favor and in the final portion of the percentages it says 4.3% which leads me to believe all those results are only taking into account the Harden deal. I am sure the Brewers and Cubs playoff hopes have gone significantly up since acquiring Sabathia and Harden. Naturally between this time yesterday and this time today our playoff chances have gone down with the addition of Harden, but not noticeably.

So pretty much what to take from it...
Both teams have greater shots at the playoffs, Cubs have slightly increased their chances of taking the division since both trades.

BaRRySandAmaN
07-09-2008, 09:15 AM
I didn't bother reading anything after someone uses wins as a judgment for a pitcher



Looking at it, #3 is a ******** answer too

#2 is the same reason I've been saying I'm wary on the deal


BTW, a healthy Mark Prior-which is what you said the Cubs just traded for, is better than Sheets or Sabathia, so I'd take that

Are you serious RWB???? :speechless::pity:, there is no way that Prior when healthy can hold a stick to either IMO.

Harden was a great pickup for you guys though and you got him without giving up too much, the steal in the deal was gaudin who is a solid #5 in a rotation.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-09-2008, 09:45 AM
.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-09-2008, 09:58 AM
Are you serious RWB???? :speechless::pity:, there is no way that Prior when healthy can hold a stick to either IMO.

Harden was a great pickup for you guys though and you got him without giving up too much, the steal in the deal was gaudin who is a solid #5 in a rotation.

Actually Prior Healthy destroys a healthy CC and still beats a healthy Sheets

CC's highest ERA+ was in 07 with a 143
Sheets highest was 162 in 04
Prior highest 178 in 2003

steelSKINSNCUBS
07-09-2008, 12:34 PM
Actually Prior Healthy destroys a healthy CC and still beats a healthy Sheets

CC's highest ERA+ was in 07 with a 143
Sheets highest was 162 in 04
Prior highest 178 in 2003

and to go along with that, not only is prior better, but CC is good against the NL while Harden is incredible against the NL, PLUS we got a great bullpen and atleast # 5 or 4 Starter. Not to mention we didnt give up one high rated prospct to get the better of the two

OnWisconsin2007
07-09-2008, 12:57 PM
First off, good pick up for the Cubs.

But Harden is no CC Sabathia. CC had a rough first 5 starts, and the reason he was 6-8 this season is because 11 times when he was pitching he got less than 2 runs or less scored for him. Sabathia is better than Harden, it's not even comparable.

Harden has been on the DL 6 times since 2006. Harden makes Ben Sheets look like IronMan. If Harden gets injured, the Cubs are going to be stretched thin at SP. It's a good move, but I'll repeat, Sabathia is a Cy Young winner. He's been better in the past, and I'd still take him this year as a work horse than a guy that is as fragile as Mr. Glass.

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 01:28 PM
Actually Prior Healthy destroys a healthy CC and still beats a healthy Sheets

CC's highest ERA+ was in 07 with a 143
Sheets highest was 162 in 04
Prior highest 178 in 2003


Prior had a great season and a half. Get over it. He is quickly turning into one of the most overrated players ever. CC and Sheets have both been very good for 5 years. The 3 aren't even comparable.

behindmydesk
07-09-2008, 01:36 PM
One thing I found funny in how the deal went down is, Hendry was just laying on the couch. That doesn't suprise me one bit.

To the guy that just wants to make the playoffs for the first time in 26 years. I really think teh cubs and brewers both get in. My inclination is the cubs win the division by 2-3 games. But really it doesn't mean much. Both should be playing in october.

PS mattz is still a terrorist.

kyubi256
07-09-2008, 01:40 PM
i think it's a good deal for the Cubs b/c they did not have to give up much that they would need and got someone who could be HUGE for them...

yes he's an injury risk but when healthy he is amazing, then again like Alou, he's NEVER healthy...

it's a good risk to take though

uptownfan
07-09-2008, 01:44 PM
Harden is comin from the A's..A's Starting Pitchers who leave the A's and join a new team more than likley fail..
I don't think that Tim Hudson or Dan Haren would agree with you

Smithy04
07-09-2008, 02:09 PM
CC is still much better than Harden anyways.

Sheets, CC, and Parra

defeat

Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 02:17 PM
and gallardo might be back late sept.

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-09-2008, 03:34 PM
Prior had a great season and a half. Get over it. He is quickly turning into one of the most overrated players ever. CC and Sheets have both been very good for 5 years. The 3 aren't even comparable.

But thats not the argument. The claim was that "when heathy" CC is better than Prior which is a bull**** claim.

Brew Crew
07-09-2008, 03:38 PM
and gallardo might be back late sept.

He's throwing 45 feet on flat surface. I want him back so bad.

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 03:44 PM
But thats not the argument. The claim was that "when heathy" CC is better than Prior which is a bull**** claim.

No, the argument was that Harden is a healthy 2003 Prior, which is false to begin with. CC is better than Harden and Prior because he has more of a track record and has actually been able to stay on the field. It's as simple as that.

Wrigleyboy25
07-09-2008, 03:51 PM
Why is Prior even being discussed? He'd a Padre, and has nothing to do with either trades.

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 03:58 PM
Why is Prior even being discussed? He'd a Padre, and has nothing to do with either trades.

Who knows. Ask redwhiteandblue.

jiggin
07-09-2008, 05:14 PM
Harden has been on the DL 6 times since 2006. Harden makes Ben Sheets look like IronMan. If Harden gets injured, the Cubs are going to be stretched thin at SP. It's a good move, but I'll repeat, Sabathia is a Cy Young winner. He's been better in the past, and I'd still take him this year as a work horse than a guy that is as fragile as Mr. Glass.

This shows how little you know about the Cubs and their rotation. First of all, they had the best ERA in the NL before getting Harden. Their starting rotation is a major reason they have the best record in the NL and are 3 1/2 up on the NL Central. They didn't need to go out and get anyone. If Harden were to end up on the DL, they would be left with the exact same rotation that has the best ERA in the NL...pretty damn good.

Sean Marshall is the fill in spot starter and just beat the Cardinals last Sunday. He is a quality #5 guy that will probably be sent back down to AAA to keep on his scheduled start days. That doesn't even include the call ups that will happen later this year, including simontacchi and possibly newly signed Cashner.

Chad Gaudin was demanded by the Cubs as an insurance policy for Harden and giving up Gallagher. Apparently a couple weeks ago when the Cubs started working on this, Gallagher was the stopper on the trade. The Cubs were ok with giving up Gallagher as long as they got Gaudin back. When Beane ok'ed it, the trade started taking effect about a week ago with the rest of the names being filled in. Gaudin has better numbers than Gallagher as a starter and has been VERY efficent as a reliever this year at 3.38 ERA in his 20 relief appearances. He hasn't given up a run in his last 15 games.

Should Harden go down with an injury, not only are the cubs left with that same rotation that put them at tops in the stats but in the division and NL, but they will have a spot starter in Gaudin who was better than Gallagher. Till then, Gaudin will be a much needed presence in the cubs bullpen where hey could use some help resting relievers for the stretch run while not worrying about someone being able to handle the job or not.

To top it off, both players are not rentals. Harden, who is only 26, has a 7 million dollar option for 09 that the cubs most likely will exercise and Gaudin, who is only 25 and pitched for Pinella in TB, is under Cubs control until after the 2010 season.

I don't think its a question of IF Harden goes on the DL, its a question of when. He will eventually have a problem that puts him there. But the cubs will still have that powerhouse rotation without him, with a better fill in starter to cover harden. They have the luxury of taking the good with the bad, knowing that without him, they are still very strong in the pitching department.

uptownfan
07-09-2008, 05:26 PM
^^^ well put

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 07:31 PM
Who knows. Ask redwhiteandblue.
Hey champ, I wasn't the first person to bring him up, someone else did
CC is still much better than Harden anyways.

Sheets, CC, and Parra

defeat

Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster
No, it doesn't

OnWisconsin2007
07-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Let's see here....Sheets is better than Zambrano. CC is better than Zambrano. Our top two pitchers are better than your ace.

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 08:10 PM
Let's see here....Sheets is better than Zambrano. CC is better than Zambrano. Our top two pitchers are better than your ace.
Statistically CC is not better than Zambrano this year
Statistically CC is the 5th best pitcher in that group, only better than Parra, with Harden being the best easily

ALBUNDY
07-09-2008, 08:14 PM
Let's see here....Sheets is better than Zambrano. CC is better than Zambrano. Our top two pitchers are better than your ace.

Right now, Dempster is better than Sheets. And Dempster is better than C.C. The Cubs #3 guy is better than your number one and two. We could do this all day.

OnWisconsin2007
07-09-2008, 08:16 PM
Statistically CC is not better than Zambrano this year
Statistically CC is the 5th best pitcher in that group, only better than Parra, with Harden being the best easily

Sweet 5 wins? CC is the reigning Cy Young winner. What cub can say that? And Sheets has better stats than Dumpster and Zambrano.

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 08:20 PM
Right now, Dempster is better than Sheets. And Dempster is better than C.C. The Cubs #3 guy is better than your number one and two. We could do this all day.
No, Dempster is not better than Sheets
Sweet 5 wins? CC is the reigning Cy Young winner. What cub can say that? And Sheets has better stats than Dumpster and Zambrano.
Is that a serious question?...why don't you pick up Todd Hollandsworth, he was a ROY before...


Did I say Sheets didn't have better stats than Z or Dempster (Don't reword names, it really only hurts your attempt at a discussion)?

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 08:22 PM
is he the reigning ROY? No

Going off your logic, you might as well pick up Hank Aaron. He used to be the HR leader.

Either way, this is stupid.

OnWisconsin2007
07-09-2008, 08:26 PM
Why are we talking about Harden? Come October Harden will most likely be on the DL.

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 08:39 PM
Why are we talking about Harden? Come October Harden will most likely be on the DL.
And CC will be a FA heading to the West Coast


2 can play that stupid game too
is he the reigning ROY? No

Going off your logic, you might as well pick up Hank Aaron. He used to be the HR leader.

Either way, this is stupid.
The point is winning a popularity-based award is nothing special

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 08:47 PM
Statistically CC is not better than Zambrano this year
Statistically CC is the 5th best pitcher in that group, only better than Parra, with Harden being the best easily


Right now, Dempster is better than Sheets. And Dempster is better than C.C. The Cubs #3 guy is better than your number one and two. We could do this all day.

So Kevin Youkilis is better than Derrek Lee? Joe Saunders is better than Cole Hamels and Brandon Webb?

You guys are right, basing who's better on 3 months worth of statistics is definitely the way to go. :rolleyes:

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 08:53 PM
So Kevin Youkilis is better than Derrek Lee? Joe Saunders is better than Cole Hamels and Brandon Webb?

You guys are right, basing who's better on 3 months worth of statistics is definitely the way to go. :rolleyes:
Well, are we talking about career wise who's better, or for this year who's better?

Yes, the 3 months so far are more indicative of who's better this year

WI Sports Fan
07-09-2008, 09:12 PM
Well, are we talking about career wise who's better, or for this year who's better?

Yes, the 3 months so far are more indicative of who's better this year

It's an indication of who has BEEN better, but not really who will BE better or who IS better. CC had a 1.89 ERA and 0.95 WHIP in June and a 2.44 ERA and 1.11 WHIP in May. Dempster began he inevitable implosion with a 4.55 ERA and 1.35 WHIP in June.

To say Dempster is better than CC is flat out ridiculous. No amount of bias warrants that statement.

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 09:38 PM
It's an indication of who has BEEN better, but not really who will BE better or who IS better. CC had a 1.89 ERA and 0.95 WHIP in June and a 2.44 ERA and 1.11 WHIP in May. Dempster began he inevitable implosion with a 4.55 ERA and 1.35 WHIP in June.

To say Dempster is better than CC is flat out ridiculous. No amount of bias warrants that statement.
I can agree with the beginning of this, until you say who IS better

Dempster's implosion included a 9 ER game vs the WS where he was responsible for maybe 2-3 of the runs (if you watched that, it was the "Eric Patterson game" where he was playing LF and made multiple errors in one inning)

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 11:02 PM
^ well those shouldn't have been earned if they were truely "errors" by eric patterson.

redwhitenblue
07-09-2008, 11:10 PM
^ well those shouldn't have been earned if they were truely "errors" by eric patterson.
Too bad MLB doesn't have good rules set in place to give OF's errors...they don't get any errors for whiffing completely on balls on the ground, taking horrible routes, if they don't touch a fly ball and miss it-it's not an error

PackCrewBuckBad
07-09-2008, 11:19 PM
they give out errors for whiffing balls. But it took him 8 runs to get out of it? He couldn't strike anyone out. Or get a DP, etc.

I'm not trying to stir anything, I didn't see the game, but to say that he allowed 8 runs because of 1 OF seems a little extreme to me.

OnWisconsin2007
07-09-2008, 11:49 PM
I read on the Cubs board that he might be going on the DL....LOL

jiggin
07-10-2008, 01:43 AM
I read on the Cubs board that he might be going on the DL....LOL

then you have selective reading skills. An A's fan posted it in the A's forum saying he heard it on a sports station there.

It was quickly squashed with the report at the post game presser in chicago when they announced the following:


Harden will make his Cubs debut on Saturday against his former Bay Area rival Giants, whom he held to one hit in six innings earlier this season.

General manager Jim Hendry mentioned a cautious schedule with Harden, who has had six stints on the disabled list since 2005. The team is taking a reverse approach to the rest of the season, looking ahead to September when determining Harden's upcoming workload.

"Like we do with all our pitchers, we're going to watch pitch counts," manager Lou Piniella said. "We can give a pitcher an extra day, we can do that. We have the luxury here of having six starters. We can skip somebody if we need to. We can work around it."

Sean Marshall is the odd man out of the rotation. Ted Lilly, Carlos Zambrano and Ryan Dempster will start at Houston after the All-Star break. Harden will open a series at Arizona on July 21 with Jason Marquis following him.


and if you looked on ANY sports site that covers the MLB, you would see that Harden is listed as the probably pitcher for Sat.:

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=chc

selective reading skills make you and everyone else you share what you select to read more and more dumb. Please...try to only share facts, not fiction. Thanks.

And here is a quote from Harden and Lou about the luxury of having 6 MLB starters (7 if you count Gaudin being able to fill in with his 3 ERA in 6 starts) and being able to offer an extra day off every once in a while to help:


"I feel good. I've had a history of some injuries. But I'm definitely working toward getting out there every fifth day and pitching. It's been an ongoing process of finding out what works -- my training routine, pregame, the day before I throw, that schedule," Harden said.

Asked if his velocity had dropped some recently, Harden said: "The last couple games it may be down a little bit, but you're going to have games like that. It happens to everyone over the course of a season. I'm not concerned about it."

Chicago manager Lou Piniella said Wednesday that since the Cubs do have six starters they have the luxury of giving someone an extra day of rest. That's fine with Harden.

"Getting a day off, an extra day here or there, definitely makes a difference with the history I've had," he said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3481016

The assistant Cubs GM (bush) was at Hardens last game (they have been working on this trade for almost a month according to Billy Beane) and said that Harden hit 92-93 regularly on the gun and topped out several times at 96. They were not concerned about his velocity.

The beauty of the situation is, the cubs probably don't even need him. Without him making a start and with CC making a start for the brewers, the brewers have slipped 1 1/2 games further back and now are a full 5 games out...LOL If this keeps up, Harden will just be an added bonus for this team in 09.

Milnertime
07-10-2008, 04:21 AM
they give out errors for whiffing balls. But it took him 8 runs to get out of it? He couldn't strike anyone out. Or get a DP, etc.

I'm not trying to stir anything, I didn't see the game, but to say that he allowed 8 runs because of 1 OF seems a little extreme to me.
That inning would have been a lot easier if Patterson had made some pretty routine plays.....

Considering that was Dempster's only "awful" start all year, I'd say he's done a damn good job. Plus, in one month splits for a pitcher, one bad start can skew the entire month horribly, which is the case here.

Also, a month is a completely arbitrary unit of time in terms of baseball.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-10-2008, 07:30 AM
I know one month is bad to go by. But so is 3, which you guys were doing...

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-10-2008, 10:23 AM
I know one month is bad to go by. But so is 3, which you guys were doing...

Really? I mean come on now. 1 bad start doesn't skew 19 games started too badly but it DOES if you are talking about one month considering you are going to make 5-6 starts in that one month.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-10-2008, 10:44 AM
Really? I mean come on now. 1 bad start doesn't skew 19 games started too badly but it DOES if you are talking about one month considering you are going to make 5-6 starts in that one month.

so basically what you are saying is when you judge a player, you should go off their last 3 months. That would be terrible to do.

BTW, if you make 5-6 starts in 1 month, how do you make 19 in 3?

ALBUNDY
07-10-2008, 01:05 PM
No, Dempster is not better than Sheets

Einstein. My idiotic statement was in response to his idiotic statement. That is why I concluded with, "We could do this all day."

Cub_StuckinSTL
07-10-2008, 02:23 PM
so basically what you are saying is when you judge a player, you should go off their last 3 months. That would be terrible to do.

BTW, if you make 5-6 starts in 1 month, how do you make 19 in 3?

Well he said three months but I figured we're talking about the whole season so we're part way into july so first game was end of march + april + may + june + 2 starts in July turns out to be right around there 19 is just what Demp has had.

I'm not saying judge them off of three months but it originally the argument was for a month so

favre_4life
07-10-2008, 03:02 PM
Solid move for the Cubs. When Harden is at his best he is a poor mans Ben Sheets. It's just to bad he has been on the DL more then Ben Sheets in the last four years.

DmL
07-11-2008, 01:36 PM
For those of you saying Harden will be on the DL, why don't you look in the mirror, and notice Sheets is hurt just as much.

The thing is, when Harden is healthy, he is THE most dominating pitcher in all of baseball. Not just me saying that either.

I also think the Cubs won this deal because Harden will be with the team next year while CC heads west and Sheets goes to the Yankees.

And I highly doubt Gallardo comes back at all this year. When you tear your ACL/MCL it's highly unlikely you come back for a year.

I take
Zambrano/Harden/Dempster

any day over

Sheets/CC/Parra

Brew Crew
07-11-2008, 02:18 PM
And I highly doubt Gallardo comes back at all this year. When you tear your ACL/MCL it's highly unlikely you come back for a year.

I take
Zambrano/Harden/Dempster

any day over

Sheets/CC/Parra

Gallardo is going to comeback. Younger people easily beat their schedules when tearing either of those. Research it.

And you can go ahead and take your top 3 over ours, I'll take the record we have against you guys this season so far and the remaing games at Miller Park we have against the Cubs.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-11-2008, 03:38 PM
For those of you saying Harden will be on the DL, why don't you look in the mirror, and notice Sheets is hurt just as much.

That is a lie


The thing is, when Harden is healthy, he is THE most dominating pitcher in all of baseball. Not just me saying that either.

And here's another lie


I also think the Cubs won this deal because Harden will be with the team next year while CC heads west and Sheets goes to the Yankees.

Could this be #3?...wow!

OHMYLORD
07-11-2008, 05:23 PM
CC is still much better than Harden anyways.

Sheets, CC, and Parra

defeat

Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster

you are

****ing

stupid

how can you predict that....
when you put our offense into the mix its even a bigger advantage for our team.

Cubs > Brewers

DmL
07-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Gallardo is going to comeback. Younger people easily beat their schedules when tearing either of those. Research it.

And you can go ahead and take your top 3 over ours, I'll take the record we have against you guys this season so far and the remaing games at Miller Park we have against the Cubs.

Anyone here down for a sig bet?

How bout whovever wins the upcoming series has to wear a sig with the opposing team's new aqusition. Deal?

redwhitenblue
07-11-2008, 10:08 PM
Anyone here down for a sig bet?

How bout whovever wins the upcoming series has to wear a sig with the opposing team's new aqusition. Deal?
Anyone bragging about 6 games from-what April?-needs serious help
That is a lieNot really, look at the injury history, it is similar
Gallardo is going to comeback. Younger people easily beat their schedules when tearing either of those. Research it.
You think he is going to come back within 6 months of an knee ligament injury?

I'll take a sig bet on that one

redwhitenblue
07-11-2008, 11:37 PM
YoGa isn't going to be back this season. The CC pickup pretty much put any idea of that to bed. Barring injury and a miracle if injury does hit and the Brewers make the playoffs the rotation will be CC, Benny, Manny, and Soup. Theres no reason to hurry YoGa along to pitch an inning or 2 in relief in the playoffs where theres guys that are fully capable of doing it already. YoGa isn't a bullpen guy and to make him adjust in part of September and then be completely ready for October is just stupid. He'll be around for quite a few years yet, so why risk injury to a guy that will need to be the ace should Ben and/or CC leave the team?
Brewers will make the WC in my opinion at the least, they're with Philly IMO as the 2nd best team in the NL

PackCrewBuckBad
07-12-2008, 12:01 AM
Not really

If I remember right, Harden has been on the DL 6 times the last 3 years, sheets has not...lie.

PackCrewBuckBad
07-12-2008, 12:02 AM
Brewers will make the WC in my opinion at the least, they're with Philly IMO as the 2nd best team in the NL

I don't get it, then who is the best? :p

redwhitenblue
07-12-2008, 12:24 AM
If I remember right, Harden has been on the DL 6 times the last 3 years, sheets has not...lie.
Neither Sheets or Harden has been able to pitch a full season in years

PackCrewBuckBad
07-12-2008, 07:41 AM
but sheets hasn't been on the DL like Harden has.

chicagofan71
07-12-2008, 09:36 AM
April 29, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Viral infection)
August 27, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn back muscle
September 20, 2005 Transferred to 60-day DL
March 30, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right posterior shoulder strai)
May 09, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder tendinitis)
July 16, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Distal sprain of right middle finger

Sheets=5 times


May 15, 2005Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left oblique)

June 08, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Ligament sprain, right elbow)
April 28, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained back muscle, out 3-6)
April 23, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)
July 12, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained right shoulder)
April 10, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)

Harden=6

That seems pretty close to me. You lose

McNam003
07-12-2008, 10:36 AM
I think he was talking about this year

PackCrewBuckBad
07-12-2008, 12:04 PM
April 29, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Viral infection)
August 27, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn back muscle
September 20, 2005 Transferred to 60-day DL
March 30, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right posterior shoulder strai)
May 09, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder tendinitis)
July 16, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Distal sprain of right middle finger

Sheets=5 times


May 15, 2005Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left oblique)

June 08, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Ligament sprain, right elbow)
April 28, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained back muscle, out 3-6)
April 23, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)
July 12, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained right shoulder)
April 10, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)

Harden=6

That seems pretty close to me. You lose

no, that shows how I WIN. Thank you :clap:

redwhitenblue
07-12-2008, 02:11 PM
no, that shows how I WIN. Thank you :clap:
6 times vs 5 times is not different enough to claim one is much worse

Anyways, stupid argument, praying for injury is a weak way out

WI Sports Fan
07-12-2008, 02:52 PM
Why are you guys arguing about how many times they've gone to the DL? Why not talk about something that actually matters, like how many games they pitch.

2006-2008, Sheets has started 59 games.
2006-2008, Harden has started 26 games.

Game over.

redwhitenblue
07-12-2008, 04:48 PM
Oh the irony. It's almost too much for me to take in one day.
I blame him and Buckwheat for the game today

Oh, and Lou Piniella's dumb ***

WI Sports Fan
07-12-2008, 04:56 PM
I blame him and Buckwheat for the game today

Oh, and Lou Piniella's dumb ***


That's why I'll never say anything like that.

redwhitenblue
07-12-2008, 04:57 PM
That's why I'll never say anything like that.
I usually keep it shut until the game is well past reachable, which is after the last out with more runs than the other team

Cullksinikers
07-12-2008, 09:11 PM
Even though Harden had been on the DL 1 more time than Sheets, Sheets has missed more time than Harden.

WI Sports Fan
07-12-2008, 09:52 PM
Even though Harden had been on the DL 1 more time than Sheets, Sheets has missed more time than Harden.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Sheets has started 59 games over the past 3 years and Harden has started 26.

Get your facts straight before you come here and look incredibly ignorant.

chicagofan71
07-12-2008, 10:00 PM
no, that shows how I WIN. Thank you :clap:

You said "but sheets hasn't been on the DL like Harden has."

6-5 is very much a like

Brewersin08
07-14-2008, 12:28 AM
April 29, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Viral infection)
August 27, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn back muscle
September 20, 2005 Transferred to 60-day DL
March 30, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right posterior shoulder strai)
May 09, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder tendinitis)
July 16, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Distal sprain of right middle finger

Sheets=5 times


May 15, 2005Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left oblique)

June 08, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Ligament sprain, right elbow)
April 28, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained back muscle, out 3-6)
April 23, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)
July 12, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained right shoulder)
April 10, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right shoulder strain)

Harden=6

That seems pretty close to me. You lose

Yes but look at the trend that seems to have developed with Harden's injuries. He's had three strained right shoulders in the last year alone. Ya think maybe his right arm is good for **** possibly? Maybe just a little bit? Sheets injuries have been for some really ****ed up things, a viral infection being one of them and another trip was for a screwed up tendon in his right hand. He hasn't had any serious problems with his throwing arm with the exception of those two shoulder strains, but that was over 2 years ago that he had a problem with that. So to say that Sheets is more of an injury risk than Harden is absurd. Sheets hasn't had problems with his throwing arm in over 2 years, Harden has been on the DL for his right shoulder three times in the last year.

chicagofan71
07-15-2008, 04:37 PM
Yes but look at the trend that seems to have developed with Harden's injuries. He's had three strained right shoulders in the last year alone. Ya think maybe his right arm is good for **** possibly? Maybe just a little bit? Sheets injuries have been for some really ****ed up things, a viral infection being one of them and another trip was for a screwed up tendon in his right hand. He hasn't had any serious problems with his throwing arm with the exception of those two shoulder strains, but that was over 2 years ago that he had a problem with that. So to say that Sheets is more of an injury risk than Harden is absurd. Sheets hasn't had problems with his throwing arm in over 2 years, Harden has been on the DL for his right shoulder three times in the last year.


You can't look at how may times they have gone on the DL. Come back with a total number of games missed and then continue this discussion.

A) I never said he was more injury prone than Sheets

B) I don't care about missed games. I was proving a point because he said "Sheets hasn't been on the DL like Hardn has"

chicagofan71
07-15-2008, 08:21 PM
But DL stints can vary in length so being out 30 or 45 days on the 15 day dl is like 3 trips. In order to make a vailid argument it would have to go by days rather than trips.

I understand that and agree with you, but once again I was proving that he was wrong that Sheets hasn't gone to the DL as much as Harden

ChiTownBearCub
07-17-2008, 02:04 AM
Tragedy stop deleting posts. I love how when a Brewers fan will talk trash you won't do much, but when I come in and speak the truth you do. Besides the guys post whose you just deleted. There will always be trash talk in sports. Did I cuss once in my message? No I didn't. Get over it. I'm glad you have the power to run forums all day long. Time for a job i'd say.

ChiTownBearCub
07-17-2008, 02:13 AM
Why was my post deleted? I didn't cuss once. Makes no sense why it's ok for the Brewers to come and talk trash.

redwhitenblue
07-17-2008, 07:31 AM
Why was my post deleted? I didn't cuss once. Makes no sense why it's ok for the Brewers to come and talk trash.
Baiting doesn't require cussing


Stop being a douche and your posts will stop being deleted

turnaround3
07-17-2008, 08:16 AM
This isn't even worth discussing. As far as likelihood to be injured at any given point it's not:

Harden > Sheets

Sheets > Harden

It's Harden = Sheets.

Honest to God, shutup and let them play. Let's see what happens and enjoy the ride. Christ...

WavelandAvenue
07-18-2008, 04:39 PM
This isn't even worth discussing. As far as likelihood to be injured at any given point it's not:

Harden > Sheets

Sheets > Harden

It's Harden = Sheets.

Honest to God, shutup and let them play. Let's see what happens and enjoy the ride. Christ...

THANK YOU!! its not like argueing will ever do anything..brewers fans wont be convinced harden is better and cubs fans wont be convinced sheets is better..so at this point the thread is absolutely pointless..both are good pitchers and its going to be a hell of a second half

spazzmccrory
07-18-2008, 05:17 PM
My two cents is everyone thinks cubs got a steal. I say Billy beene knows what he is doing. Cubs took a huge gamble for a very good but very unhealthy pitcher, lets race remember CUBS= completly useless by September we will see if harden follows suit

redwhitenblue
07-18-2008, 09:11 PM
My two cents is everyone thinks cubs got a steal. I say Billy beene knows what he is doing. Cubs took a huge gamble for a very good but very unhealthy pitcher, lets race remember CUBS= completly useless by September we will see if harden follows suit
How are the Cubs completely useless by September when the Brewers were beat last September for the division by the Cubs


Seriously, it should be "useless by October," the Cubs are in it in September miore than half the divison usually is

jtrinaldi
07-18-2008, 10:21 PM
Cubs dont have prospects for future we do. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa

redwhitenblue
07-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Cubs dont have prospects for future we do. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa
Solid post

PackCrewBuckBad
07-19-2008, 12:58 PM
I understand that and agree with you, but once again I was proving that he was wrong that Sheets hasn't gone to the DL as much as Harden

and you proved he hasn't.

spazzmccrory
07-22-2008, 04:38 AM
How are the Cubs completely useless by September when the Brewers were beat last September for the division by the Cubs


Seriously, it should be "useless by October," the Cubs are in it in September miore than half the divison usually is

Sounds good we'll call them the CUBO's